370z has overheating issues on road courses
02-06-2009, 05:23 AM
#61
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You're looking at it from the wrong perspective.
This is an oversimplification but, here goes.
Multiply that $200 cost per unit by the number of units sold. Let's just say that they sell 100,000 units in 5 years. Do the math and that's $20,000,000 for something that might not have been completely necessary.
Not everyone is going to track the car. It's a Nissan, not a Ferrari. It's an 'affordable sports car' so they're going to cut costs where they can.
This is an oversimplification but, here goes.
Multiply that $200 cost per unit by the number of units sold. Let's just say that they sell 100,000 units in 5 years. Do the math and that's $20,000,000 for something that might not have been completely necessary.
Not everyone is going to track the car. It's a Nissan, not a Ferrari. It's an 'affordable sports car' so they're going to cut costs where they can.
02-06-2009, 05:32 AM
#62
In general when a company decides to build and sell a widget, they set a 'target' price for what each widget costs to build. Then they negotiate another price that they sell it to the 'vendor' which is usually locked in with a contract. If at the last minute they decide that they went over budget on the 'cost to build' they can't exactly say to the vendor "hey can we raise the retail? we went over budget building them". It doesn't work that way unfortunately. In that particular situation, it would end up cutting into profits for the manufacturer.
Bottom line, Nissan more than likely knew about the problem but didn't think it was necessary.
Last edited by tranceformer95; 02-06-2009 at 05:36 AM.
02-06-2009, 06:24 AM
#63
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The 370z starting price is $29,930 and that would have put it over the magic $30k mark. I'm afraid it's not as simple as just raising the retail price of something to make it better.
In general when a company decides to build and sell a widget, they set a 'target' price for what each widget costs to build. Then they negotiate another price that they sell it to the 'vendor' which is usually locked in with a contract. If at the last minute they decide that they went over budget on the 'cost to build' they can't exactly say to the vendor "hey can we raise the retail? we went over budget building them". It doesn't work that way unfortunately. In that particular situation, it would end up cutting into profits for the manufacturer.
Bottom line, Nissan more than likely knew about the problem but didn't think it was necessary.
In general when a company decides to build and sell a widget, they set a 'target' price for what each widget costs to build. Then they negotiate another price that they sell it to the 'vendor' which is usually locked in with a contract. If at the last minute they decide that they went over budget on the 'cost to build' they can't exactly say to the vendor "hey can we raise the retail? we went over budget building them". It doesn't work that way unfortunately. In that particular situation, it would end up cutting into profits for the manufacturer.
Bottom line, Nissan more than likely knew about the problem but didn't think it was necessary.
) Thanks for that info..I thought the Z was much less than that.
02-07-2009, 10:50 AM
#64
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Perhaps you're looking at it from the wrong perspective.
For $20 million (100K units) the problem is fixed, even if you don't pass on any cost to future MSRP.
What kind of costs could be extrapolated for future lawsuits, tarnished brand identity, lemon law issues, and the laughing stock/ridicule of the sports car demographic (and media) where you've just lost a bunch of street cred? Much more than $20 mil. Again, this is isn't an Altima, nor the family sedan demographic. This car is expected to perform as a sports car, and needs to be accountable for such performance.
A good place to start would be to calculate costs incurred by BMW for the 335i fiasco... and I guarantee it was over $20 mil in lost sales, pissed customers, tarnished brand identity, retrofit costs, negative press, etc.
And as I said before, if it was added to the sports pkg only (makes sense) and the sport pkg cost goes up $200, then the base MSRP would still come in under $30K for marketing purposes.
Just watch and see...
For $20 million (100K units) the problem is fixed, even if you don't pass on any cost to future MSRP.
What kind of costs could be extrapolated for future lawsuits, tarnished brand identity, lemon law issues, and the laughing stock/ridicule of the sports car demographic (and media) where you've just lost a bunch of street cred? Much more than $20 mil. Again, this is isn't an Altima, nor the family sedan demographic. This car is expected to perform as a sports car, and needs to be accountable for such performance.
A good place to start would be to calculate costs incurred by BMW for the 335i fiasco... and I guarantee it was over $20 mil in lost sales, pissed customers, tarnished brand identity, retrofit costs, negative press, etc.
And as I said before, if it was added to the sports pkg only (makes sense) and the sport pkg cost goes up $200, then the base MSRP would still come in under $30K for marketing purposes.
Just watch and see...
02-07-2009, 04:24 PM
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If you want to see what Nissan did on an early proto car as far as oil coolers, look here.
http://www.370z.com/MagazineArticles...e-VQ37VHR.aspx
http://www.370z.com/MagazineArticles...rain-Test.aspx
http://www.370z.com/MagazineArticles...e-VQ37VHR.aspx
http://www.370z.com/MagazineArticles...rain-Test.aspx
02-07-2009, 11:20 PM
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Oh, but they won't add anything to the car, so you still will not get your oil cooler...
Bottom line is it's a cheap sports-car. There had to be trade-offs somewhere.
02-08-2009, 08:31 AM
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+++++1
This doesn't concern me even a little. As anyone that tracks their 370Z will surely have to do what it takes to make a road-worthy car track-worthy. It doesn't make the 370Z any less of a car in the use it was intended for. Also, this is just one way to keep the cost down. Likely they [Nissan] asked themselves if it was needed for street operation. The answer is obviously no. It's not like it overheats on the highway or while idling at a long stoplight. The car wasn't rushed, and the sky isn't falling ontop of the 370. Sheesh.
02-08-2009, 09:20 PM
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will the car even last the car and driver lighting lap test? Imagine the review the 370z was making great time but then the engine cut the Revs so it lost to the cobalt ss! woot!
02-09-2009, 05:50 AM
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Considering the Cobalt SS is running very close behind the Corvette C6 I really don't see any shame in losing to one on a track..the thing was tuned for handling and does so very well. If it wasn't wrong wheel drive I think it would get a lot more respect.
02-09-2009, 12:24 PM
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not actualy trashing the cobalt SS, but you get my point last time i looked at that review of the lighting lap the Z was barely faster than the cobalt SS, im wondering can the Z even make it through the lightening lap now?
02-10-2009, 05:11 AM
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02-10-2009, 09:59 AM
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It just felt sort of unrefined, there was a lot of torque steer and I am not a torque steer puss, my Spec-V time attack car packs over 500 whp so I know what torque steer is, the engine didnt want to rev freely, the suspension although properly stiff was very harsh, the steering felt non-linear and the car had what I call the GM feel, it just feels shitty and unrefined, its hard to put my finger on it, I think its the way the steering, brakes and engine response is on GM cars, the intial brake take up feels odd and non-linear, the steering has an odd on center feel and the engine feels somehow constipated even though its making awsome power.
GM just never gets that inspiring feel right, even on the Corvettes. When I drive a Vettev on the track, I never feel at home in it even though I might be turning good lap times. I think BMW has it down the best at getting the "feel"right and some Japanese car companies get it close to right on some models.
What do I define as the right feel? Brakes that have a firm pedal that have a linear build up of stopping power as you push the pedal harder with decent bite and good modulation. ABS that isnt too intrusive, I hate when ABS is so course that when it kicks in the car feels like its accelerating.
Steering that is center weighted, has good self aligning torque and gets ligher as the limit of traction is reached. Throttle response that doesnt have exagerated torque swell and has little lag (if drive by wire) or the excessive throttle cam feeling.
Usualy handling balance that has very slight understeer at the limit but the car can be made to rotate with lift throttle or trail braking on corner entrance and with the throttle past mid turn. Suspension that is supple but has lots of body motion control (digressive feel). These are the haulmarks of a good feeling car.
GM cars are not like this, some of them have really excellent performance but they feel odd and unconnected.
The 370Z has it down pretty good, in my comments on 370z.com I heaped prasies on the car, as a driving instructor, I get to try a lot of different stuff on the track and the 370Z is darned good.
02-10-2009, 10:10 AM
#75
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A 370 like a 350 needs an engine and diff oil cooler for serious track work. Actualy many cars do!
02-25-2009, 08:19 AM
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The 370z starting price is $29,930 and that would have put it over the magic $30k mark. I'm afraid it's not as simple as just raising the retail price of something to make it better.
In general when a company decides to build and sell a widget, they set a 'target' price for what each widget costs to build. Then they negotiate another price that they sell it to the 'vendor' which is usually locked in with a contract. If at the last minute they decide that they went over budget on the 'cost to build' they can't exactly say to the vendor "hey can we raise the retail? we went over budget building them". It doesn't work that way unfortunately. In that particular situation, it would end up cutting into profits for the manufacturer.
Bottom line, Nissan more than likely knew about the problem but didn't think it was necessary.
In general when a company decides to build and sell a widget, they set a 'target' price for what each widget costs to build. Then they negotiate another price that they sell it to the 'vendor' which is usually locked in with a contract. If at the last minute they decide that they went over budget on the 'cost to build' they can't exactly say to the vendor "hey can we raise the retail? we went over budget building them". It doesn't work that way unfortunately. In that particular situation, it would end up cutting into profits for the manufacturer.
Bottom line, Nissan more than likely knew about the problem but didn't think it was necessary.
I think you're speaking too hypothetically, and if the designers were aware of the flaw they most likely would have fixed the problem and found some other way to make up for a defect in design that could possibely compromise the market success of the car in the future, in spite of their fear of going over the "30,000" magic number you speak of.
02-25-2009, 09:42 AM
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Some of my tuning friends in Japan said the 370 overheated badly in testing at Tsukba circuit a couple of weeks ago. Water temp went way up. Car didnt go into limp though but Tsukba Circuit in winter is pretty cold.
03-15-2009, 11:18 PM
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During the course of dyno testing for our new online 370z mag, we noted pretty high oil temps from jsut a few dyno pulls, in the 260 degree region. This car is going to need a big oil cooler.