Need guidance on roadcourse mods
10-09-2011, 09:27 PM
#1
Need guidance on roadcourse mods
I've read threads in my spare time for a couple weeks about modifications for better roadcourse performance.
My focus is having fun on open lapping days. Basically going as fast as possible with as few rules as possible. It may be of note that the courses in my area tend to be tight and slightly favour handling over power. I will probably enter a few time attack events.
I'm trying to keep this short, but these are the mods I've thought about doing this winter. Im looking to those of you with experience to steer me in another way if needed before I start wasting more money. Budget is roughly 5K for this project.
Brakes. The weakest link I feel in my car currently. Remarkably I still feel I out brake most people on the track. But hot brakes have always been a concern of mine and I wait long periods on lapping days making sure brakes cool. I have the 03 non brembo. Upgraded before to Stop tech cross drilled aero rotors (mistake) Hawk HP+, RBF 600, SS lines. Rotors are cracking.
Thinking about changing to.
Brake cooling ducts
Carbotech XP-10 front Carbotech XP-8 rear.
Stoptech Powerslot Rotors. And just replacing as need arises.
VS Stoptech 14" ST60/40 F&R BBK. What are benefits or drawbacks to only getting only the fronts as I've seen some do?
Is huge price difference worth it? On one hand my understanding is I am only buying fade resistance. On the other I've heard brakes are worth every penny.
Tires: Currently on 18" Hankook RS3/ ENkei RPF1. Very Impressed and best upgrade I've done.
Makes me want to switch to Hankook Z214 C71 compound tires. Worried this may contribute to rapid brake fade.
Motordyne ART test pipes. Feel I need some more power. I'm NA and at 262 rwhp with stock cats. This is an easy power/ weight solution.
380RS Gas pedal. I find rev matching a PITA with the current pedals and my feet.
Also considered but not sold on these primarily due to self imposed budget restraints.
Cusco RS 1.5 LSD (I have the stock VLSD)
Light Clutch Flywheel combo
And after tonnes of reading I'm still struggling with some easy suspension upgrades to make. Right now I only have Eibach prokit springs an SPC rear camber arms.
Thinking about Hotchkis sway bars to help reduce some body roll. But don't know what I am getting into as far as needing other parts. I've heard coilovers are not a must have upgrade.
Anyways really appreciate the input and any direction you can give me.
My focus is having fun on open lapping days. Basically going as fast as possible with as few rules as possible. It may be of note that the courses in my area tend to be tight and slightly favour handling over power. I will probably enter a few time attack events.
I'm trying to keep this short, but these are the mods I've thought about doing this winter. Im looking to those of you with experience to steer me in another way if needed before I start wasting more money. Budget is roughly 5K for this project.
Brakes. The weakest link I feel in my car currently. Remarkably I still feel I out brake most people on the track. But hot brakes have always been a concern of mine and I wait long periods on lapping days making sure brakes cool. I have the 03 non brembo. Upgraded before to Stop tech cross drilled aero rotors (mistake) Hawk HP+, RBF 600, SS lines. Rotors are cracking.
Thinking about changing to.
Brake cooling ducts
Carbotech XP-10 front Carbotech XP-8 rear.
Stoptech Powerslot Rotors. And just replacing as need arises.
VS Stoptech 14" ST60/40 F&R BBK. What are benefits or drawbacks to only getting only the fronts as I've seen some do?
Is huge price difference worth it? On one hand my understanding is I am only buying fade resistance. On the other I've heard brakes are worth every penny.
Tires: Currently on 18" Hankook RS3/ ENkei RPF1. Very Impressed and best upgrade I've done.
Makes me want to switch to Hankook Z214 C71 compound tires. Worried this may contribute to rapid brake fade.
Motordyne ART test pipes. Feel I need some more power. I'm NA and at 262 rwhp with stock cats. This is an easy power/ weight solution.
380RS Gas pedal. I find rev matching a PITA with the current pedals and my feet.
Also considered but not sold on these primarily due to self imposed budget restraints.
Cusco RS 1.5 LSD (I have the stock VLSD)
Light Clutch Flywheel combo
And after tonnes of reading I'm still struggling with some easy suspension upgrades to make. Right now I only have Eibach prokit springs an SPC rear camber arms.
Thinking about Hotchkis sway bars to help reduce some body roll. But don't know what I am getting into as far as needing other parts. I've heard coilovers are not a must have upgrade.
Anyways really appreciate the input and any direction you can give me.
Last edited by 2TH PWR; 10-09-2011 at 09:33 PM.
10-09-2011, 10:36 PM
#2
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Throw an oil cooler in there if you don't already have one. Track days will stress your engine more than normal, and it helps to keep the oil cool.
Sway bars are an easy upgrade. I wouldn't bother changing much else, until you learn your car and your driving abilities very well.
Sway bars are an easy upgrade. I wouldn't bother changing much else, until you learn your car and your driving abilities very well.
10-09-2011, 10:56 PM
#3
+1@ Dave's post. But since you got a budget set already, I'll give it a try...
You mentioned that the track mainly consists tight turns, it might be a good idea to keep the speed adders to the bottom of your priority list.
Having participating in AutoX and trackdays i've been also thinking of a good basic occasional track setup and here's what i can share:
If you're upgrading to BBK, IMO it's best to get the full (6pot f / 4pot r) set so as not to mess up your braking bias. This will match perfectly with Rcomp tyres (square setup ftw!).
Consider getting the mid 4pt chassis brace + fender braces just to keep your Z's chassis in good shape from all the abuse.
Swaybars will do wonders.
Engine oil cooler is a must. Maybe throw in the Pathfinder cooling mod as well if you have the DE.
Get the SS braided clutch line too.
IMO the stock VLSD is OK for novice drivers like us.
If I'm not mistaken the above would net around 5k minus labor.
Good luck man!!
You mentioned that the track mainly consists tight turns, it might be a good idea to keep the speed adders to the bottom of your priority list.
Having participating in AutoX and trackdays i've been also thinking of a good basic occasional track setup and here's what i can share:
If you're upgrading to BBK, IMO it's best to get the full (6pot f / 4pot r) set so as not to mess up your braking bias. This will match perfectly with Rcomp tyres (square setup ftw!).
Consider getting the mid 4pt chassis brace + fender braces just to keep your Z's chassis in good shape from all the abuse.
Swaybars will do wonders.
Engine oil cooler is a must. Maybe throw in the Pathfinder cooling mod as well if you have the DE.
Get the SS braided clutch line too.
IMO the stock VLSD is OK for novice drivers like us.
If I'm not mistaken the above would net around 5k minus labor.
Good luck man!!
Last edited by 350Zdj; 10-09-2011 at 10:59 PM.
10-10-2011, 06:12 AM
#4
+1@ Dave's post. But since you got a budget set already, I'll give it a try...
You mentioned that the track mainly consists tight turns, it might be a good idea to keep the speed adders to the bottom of your priority list.
Having participating in AutoX and trackdays i've been also thinking of a good basic occasional track setup and here's what i can share:
If you're upgrading to BBK, IMO it's best to get the full (6pot f / 4pot r) set so as not to mess up your braking bias. This will match perfectly with Rcomp tyres (square setup ftw!).
Consider getting the mid 4pt chassis brace + fender braces just to keep your Z's chassis in good shape from all the abuse.
Swaybars will do wonders.
Engine oil cooler is a must. Maybe throw in the Pathfinder cooling mod as well if you have the DE.
Get the SS braided clutch line too.
IMO the stock VLSD is OK for novice drivers like us.
If I'm not mistaken the above would net around 5k minus labor.
Good luck man!!
You mentioned that the track mainly consists tight turns, it might be a good idea to keep the speed adders to the bottom of your priority list.
Having participating in AutoX and trackdays i've been also thinking of a good basic occasional track setup and here's what i can share:
If you're upgrading to BBK, IMO it's best to get the full (6pot f / 4pot r) set so as not to mess up your braking bias. This will match perfectly with Rcomp tyres (square setup ftw!).
Consider getting the mid 4pt chassis brace + fender braces just to keep your Z's chassis in good shape from all the abuse.
Swaybars will do wonders.
Engine oil cooler is a must. Maybe throw in the Pathfinder cooling mod as well if you have the DE.
Get the SS braided clutch line too.
IMO the stock VLSD is OK for novice drivers like us.
If I'm not mistaken the above would net around 5k minus labor.
Good luck man!!
) with good pads and fluid are enough. Even with 305 V710s on, the OEM Brembos+steel line+ATE Superblue+Raybestos ST43 combo has not failed me yet... even WITHOUT ducts. After wasting money on both a tanabe front brace and a GT spec mid brace, I took both off and run without them. I don't think they do a single useful thing. (Well, the tanabe brace did do a nice job of protecting my hiflow cats, when I had them)
The OEM VLSD is just about as useful as an open diff. It works well in theory, but on these cars is really doesn't help at all. Get a proper diff. Helical vs clutch is up to you.
Swaybars +1
Power adders are close to worthless on these cars NA +1
Oil cooler +1-trillion
Never did the Pathfinder cooling mod, can't say much about it.
10-10-2011, 06:49 AM
#5
I've seen a few of your vids in the east canada section and it appears that you've been bitten. Not sure how much track experience you've had but you seem to get out to Grand Bend often.
The usual advice applies. The best performance mod you can make is experience. Maybe you have already given the others a try but Mosport (DDT and full track), Shannonville, Calabogie and TMP each have their own characteristics and will teach you something new.
You should also consider a school. I'll give a plug to the Time Attack Ontario schools (DDT in May and full track in July):
http://casc.on.ca/timeattack
The Ontario Time Attack series is the best run and organized series. It also has the best classing system to provide fair competition.
Sigma and CSCS are also options but less structured.
Re mods:
I run a 06 350z in Ontario Time Attack. 1st year was stock everything, some weight reduction, roll bar, RS3 and non-brembo (Carbotech XP10 and XP8), square set up, brake ducts.
This year was the same except for Hotkiss swaybars, intake mods and SG headers.
Next year full cage, suspension upgrades, brembos. The car is now a dedicated track car.
My thoughts on what you are considering (FWIW):
Brakes - non-brembos are more than enough for RS3 (XP10 and XP8 are what Carbotech recommends) and 20 minute lapping. I just added brake ducts. The only track that I have any heat issues is Shannonville - Nelson configuration. I just watch my temps (a pyrometer is handy). The floating calipers are nice as they aren't as sensitive to pad knockback.
Don't waste money on expensive rotors. I by Chinese blanks from Partsource for $200 a set. They last about 10 events before they warp or show signs of cracking. Then just change rotors.
Yes I'm upgrading to brembo brakes ($1200-$1500 used) but the car will eventually be a regional racer and I want them to be able run longer sessions. I personally wouldn't spend big $ on a "big brake" set up. Just sort out the cooling.
Tires - Stick to RS3 for another year. They are great. Sticky and don't heat cycle out like R-comps. Also if you add more grip you add stress to the suspension. Wheel bearings etc. wear out sooner.
Suspension - stock suspension is well thought out. I find the soft setup very forgiving which helps as you start to get closer to the limit. Square set up makes the car more neutral (my preference) and the sways allow some tuning. I'll be upgrading next year (hopefully to 2822s) but don't expect to go much faster as a result.
LSD - I just switch to helical diff and lightened flywheel. Can't comment at this point on improvement; but the VLSD was fine until my skills developed.
You'll get lots of feedback so sift throught it all and make the decisions that you think are best. Personally I'd work on brake cooling and spend as little as possible to save money for track days next year. Just don't be one of those guys that talks all winter about upgrades and then never shows up at the track.
That said, we'd love to have you out at Ontario Time Attack next year.
Oh, and you asked about vids in one of your other threads. Here's one from Mosport:
http://www.vimeo.com/28643206
(over driving a little but it looks more exiting than faster/smoother lap; I don't recommend driving like this at Mosport)
The usual advice applies. The best performance mod you can make is experience. Maybe you have already given the others a try but Mosport (DDT and full track), Shannonville, Calabogie and TMP each have their own characteristics and will teach you something new.
You should also consider a school. I'll give a plug to the Time Attack Ontario schools (DDT in May and full track in July):
http://casc.on.ca/timeattack
The Ontario Time Attack series is the best run and organized series. It also has the best classing system to provide fair competition.
Sigma and CSCS are also options but less structured.
Re mods:
I run a 06 350z in Ontario Time Attack. 1st year was stock everything, some weight reduction, roll bar, RS3 and non-brembo (Carbotech XP10 and XP8), square set up, brake ducts.
This year was the same except for Hotkiss swaybars, intake mods and SG headers.
Next year full cage, suspension upgrades, brembos. The car is now a dedicated track car.
My thoughts on what you are considering (FWIW):
Brakes - non-brembos are more than enough for RS3 (XP10 and XP8 are what Carbotech recommends) and 20 minute lapping. I just added brake ducts. The only track that I have any heat issues is Shannonville - Nelson configuration. I just watch my temps (a pyrometer is handy). The floating calipers are nice as they aren't as sensitive to pad knockback.
Don't waste money on expensive rotors. I by Chinese blanks from Partsource for $200 a set. They last about 10 events before they warp or show signs of cracking. Then just change rotors.
Yes I'm upgrading to brembo brakes ($1200-$1500 used) but the car will eventually be a regional racer and I want them to be able run longer sessions. I personally wouldn't spend big $ on a "big brake" set up. Just sort out the cooling.
Tires - Stick to RS3 for another year. They are great. Sticky and don't heat cycle out like R-comps. Also if you add more grip you add stress to the suspension. Wheel bearings etc. wear out sooner.
Suspension - stock suspension is well thought out. I find the soft setup very forgiving which helps as you start to get closer to the limit. Square set up makes the car more neutral (my preference) and the sways allow some tuning. I'll be upgrading next year (hopefully to 2822s) but don't expect to go much faster as a result.
LSD - I just switch to helical diff and lightened flywheel. Can't comment at this point on improvement; but the VLSD was fine until my skills developed.
You'll get lots of feedback so sift throught it all and make the decisions that you think are best. Personally I'd work on brake cooling and spend as little as possible to save money for track days next year. Just don't be one of those guys that talks all winter about upgrades and then never shows up at the track.
That said, we'd love to have you out at Ontario Time Attack next year.
Oh, and you asked about vids in one of your other threads. Here's one from Mosport:
http://www.vimeo.com/28643206
(over driving a little but it looks more exiting than faster/smoother lap; I don't recommend driving like this at Mosport)
10-10-2011, 07:37 AM
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Aero rotors (2 piece) are only made for Brembo cars
Are you overheating your pads at present? Fade ?
I wouldn't personally bother with an oil cooler unless you've got an oil temperature gauge telling you that one is needed. Revups to a certain degree, and certainly the HR's have high oil temp problems, the earlier cars really don't suffer as much from this issue due mainly to bearing clearances used.
Yes, a BBK buys you fade resistance - the ability to repeat the same stop over, and over, and over again, consistently. You're also buying into more pad options and longer overall life of components due to more pistons (subject to your pad choice and driving style). Tires play a HUGE role in brake performance- the grippier your tire, the better your brakes need to be. Grippy tires will reveal weakness in your brake components in very short order
Sway's pay big dividends if you feel the car has too much lean in it's present state, and/or you want the ability to control turn in response and tail end performance. I wouldn't say they are a must have for everyone, it's really tied to your spring/shock/tire choice, and most importantly, how you feel behind the wheel. Parts are great and all, but if you're not comfortable driving with them, it's a waste
The LSD would be very worthwhile, albeit expensive. It will help with all aspects of overall handling, and be a sure fire way to drop lap times. Doesn't require you to relearn the car, just really requires you to do what you're doing, more aggressively - go deeper into turns at speed, power out of them sooner. It remains my favorite overall mod on my car to date
Are you overheating your pads at present? Fade ?
I wouldn't personally bother with an oil cooler unless you've got an oil temperature gauge telling you that one is needed. Revups to a certain degree, and certainly the HR's have high oil temp problems, the earlier cars really don't suffer as much from this issue due mainly to bearing clearances used.
Yes, a BBK buys you fade resistance - the ability to repeat the same stop over, and over, and over again, consistently. You're also buying into more pad options and longer overall life of components due to more pistons (subject to your pad choice and driving style). Tires play a HUGE role in brake performance- the grippier your tire, the better your brakes need to be. Grippy tires will reveal weakness in your brake components in very short order
Sway's pay big dividends if you feel the car has too much lean in it's present state, and/or you want the ability to control turn in response and tail end performance. I wouldn't say they are a must have for everyone, it's really tied to your spring/shock/tire choice, and most importantly, how you feel behind the wheel. Parts are great and all, but if you're not comfortable driving with them, it's a waste
The LSD would be very worthwhile, albeit expensive. It will help with all aspects of overall handling, and be a sure fire way to drop lap times. Doesn't require you to relearn the car, just really requires you to do what you're doing, more aggressively - go deeper into turns at speed, power out of them sooner. It remains my favorite overall mod on my car to date
Last edited by Z1 Performance; 10-10-2011 at 09:56 AM.
10-10-2011, 09:46 AM
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If you want to try the Cusco diff in the spring you are more than welcome to a few laps in my car. Hard to say how much faster it is, I still don't push hard enough at TMP, but it is a much more predictable and controllable car with it vs my old VLSD.
I'll echo the need (or lack of) of a BBK. I never experience fade with ducts up front on XP10/8s (btw frank runs a group buy in the spring). My rears run pretty hot though, and I cracked my rotors really bad but I think it was just because they were drilled. Im confident blanks would be ok. Actually I think we can run rear '06 rotors with a bracket upgrade? If so I will be jumping on this, but also keeping my eye out for Brembos. Otherwise I am happy with my current brakes, even though they are tiny
What alignment are you running now? Im going to start playing with camber and toe settings next season. I think I am staying on stock springs/shocks though.
I'll echo the need (or lack of) of a BBK. I never experience fade with ducts up front on XP10/8s (btw frank runs a group buy in the spring). My rears run pretty hot though, and I cracked my rotors really bad but I think it was just because they were drilled. Im confident blanks would be ok. Actually I think we can run rear '06 rotors with a bracket upgrade? If so I will be jumping on this, but also keeping my eye out for Brembos. Otherwise I am happy with my current brakes, even though they are tiny
What alignment are you running now? Im going to start playing with camber and toe settings next season. I think I am staying on stock springs/shocks though.
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10-10-2011, 11:34 AM
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Smaller tight course running i would suggest 2 things right off the bat.
Front camber arms, they will let you get a better contact patch and keep your tires from wearing out quickly.
LSD, hard accel out of tight corners is where a diff really helps. Also i noticed less tire wear since i installed mine.
Then the other stuff as you need it. BTW the 380RS throttle pedal rocks, i installed mine a couple weeks ago and just drove the track with it yesterday. I had no problems before, but it made it easier.
Front camber arms, they will let you get a better contact patch and keep your tires from wearing out quickly.
LSD, hard accel out of tight corners is where a diff really helps. Also i noticed less tire wear since i installed mine.
Then the other stuff as you need it. BTW the 380RS throttle pedal rocks, i installed mine a couple weeks ago and just drove the track with it yesterday. I had no problems before, but it made it easier.
10-10-2011, 02:38 PM
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Aero rotors (2 piece) are only made for Brembo cars
Are you overheating your pads at present? Fade ?
I wouldn't personally bother with an oil cooler unless you've got an oil temperature gauge telling you that one is needed. Revups to a certain degree, and certainly the HR's have high oil temp problems, the earlier cars really don't suffer as much from this issue due mainly to bearing clearances used.
Yes, a BBK buys you fade resistance - the ability to repeat the same stop over, and over, and over again, consistently. You're also buying into more pad options and longer overall life of components due to more pistons (subject to your pad choice and driving style). Tires play a HUGE role in brake performance- the grippier your tire, the better your brakes need to be. Grippy tires will reveal weakness in your brake components in very short order
Sway's pay big dividends if you feel the car has too much lean in it's present state, and/or you want the ability to control turn in response and tail end performance. I wouldn't say they are a must have for everyone, it's really tied to your spring/shock/tire choice, and most importantly, how you feel behind the wheel. Parts are great and all, but if you're not comfortable driving with them, it's a waste
The LSD would be very worthwhile, albeit expensive. It will help with all aspects of overall handling, and be a sure fire way to drop lap times. Doesn't require you to relearn the car, just really requires you to do what you're doing, more aggressively - go deeper into turns at speed, power out of them sooner. It remains my favorite overall mod on my car to date
Are you overheating your pads at present? Fade ?
I wouldn't personally bother with an oil cooler unless you've got an oil temperature gauge telling you that one is needed. Revups to a certain degree, and certainly the HR's have high oil temp problems, the earlier cars really don't suffer as much from this issue due mainly to bearing clearances used.
Yes, a BBK buys you fade resistance - the ability to repeat the same stop over, and over, and over again, consistently. You're also buying into more pad options and longer overall life of components due to more pistons (subject to your pad choice and driving style). Tires play a HUGE role in brake performance- the grippier your tire, the better your brakes need to be. Grippy tires will reveal weakness in your brake components in very short order
Sway's pay big dividends if you feel the car has too much lean in it's present state, and/or you want the ability to control turn in response and tail end performance. I wouldn't say they are a must have for everyone, it's really tied to your spring/shock/tire choice, and most importantly, how you feel behind the wheel. Parts are great and all, but if you're not comfortable driving with them, it's a waste
The LSD would be very worthwhile, albeit expensive. It will help with all aspects of overall handling, and be a sure fire way to drop lap times. Doesn't require you to relearn the car, just really requires you to do what you're doing, more aggressively - go deeper into turns at speed, power out of them sooner. It remains my favorite overall mod on my car to date
10-10-2011, 02:45 PM
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it will vary of course by rpm range, peak rpm achieved, length of track, time on the track, ambient temp, oil type, oil viscosity
my oil temp averages ~220 max, but I spin the car another ~1000 rpm past what an HR does
my oil temp averages ~220 max, but I spin the car another ~1000 rpm past what an HR does
10-10-2011, 02:57 PM
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I dont have a oil cooler or any cooling mods.
10-10-2011, 05:01 PM
#13
Thanks for the detailed responses so far guys.
I dont have a lot of experience at all. Just 5 open lapping sessions this year, and that's it.
Matt, Rob has also suggested that ontario time attack and I will look into it.
Rob, if we are ever at the track I might take a couple easy laps behind the wheel just to see if I can feel the difference. That's pretty generous of you. Maybe you can borrow my lift or something as pay back lol.
If I bought some Hotchkis sways would I need anything else off the start? And why?
I think the car feels pretty neutral right now with the square tire set up, as opposed to understeering with the staggered set up. Just want to keep the car a little flatter to maximize the grip I do have. Any suggestions on settings with the Hotchkis sways?
I dont have a lot of experience at all. Just 5 open lapping sessions this year, and that's it.
Matt, Rob has also suggested that ontario time attack and I will look into it.
Rob, if we are ever at the track I might take a couple easy laps behind the wheel just to see if I can feel the difference. That's pretty generous of you. Maybe you can borrow my lift or something as pay back lol.
If I bought some Hotchkis sways would I need anything else off the start? And why?
I think the car feels pretty neutral right now with the square tire set up, as opposed to understeering with the staggered set up. Just want to keep the car a little flatter to maximize the grip I do have. Any suggestions on settings with the Hotchkis sways?
10-10-2011, 06:00 PM
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My oil temps always hit atleast 280-290 on my stock n/a car. All with ambient temperatures around 80-85, around 20 minute sessions. Guess its time for an oil cooler...
10-11-2011, 02:13 AM
#19
Although I've never had one yet, I'd say it will be very helpful to get a couple of lessons.
When you hit the track, push the car a bit to its limits every other lap.
(but only when you're very confident) You will then know what mods / adjustments you really need, according to the car's behavior and your driving style.
Great thread btw. I've learned from this as well.
