EnthuZ

iTrader: (2)

Dave, I don't think it's on their site. I just got their catalog, page 9, under the "AP Racing Big Brake Kits" header, "Not pictured is our soon to be released AP 2 piston rear brake system which will utilize stock rotors." No picture.

What do you think of the Pillar Vane rotor? Looks like it has higher thermal capacity, and better heat dissipation.

krinkov

hey guys look here
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....threadid=23583

and EnthuZ, those are the new DBA rotors, they are really catching on but you can get them other places alot cheaper than $tillen

3rdpower

I will eventually get brakes (quite a ways down on the modification list) however, is there a way to get rid of all that damn brake dust?! Possibly new pads??

DZeckhausen

In fact, there is a way, at least for the front. The Axxis Deluxe Plus pads are now available for the 350Z front calipers (non-Track model). I've had very good luck with this new pad and the performance is better than the old PBR Deluxe pads. This pad has a higher Max Operating Temperature (MOT) that is close to 800 degrees F and it falls off slowly above that.

It is NOT a track pad. It's a very low dust street pad. After installing, be sure to follow these bedding-in instructions: http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm

DZeckhausen

I don't think it's possible to have both better thermal capacity AND better heat dissipation in a rotor that is the same size as stock. Thermal capacity is a function of mass. If the rotor has the same external dimensions as stock (292mm x 16mm) but it has more mass, then it must have a smaller air gap. If that's the case, then air flow through the rotor will be reduced.

Heat dissipation occurs via three different mechanisms:

1. Radiation (about 50 percent)
2. Convection (about 25 percent)
3. Conduction (about 25 percent)

(This is making lots of assumptions about the operating conditions. At speed, with a well ducted rotor, the percentages change to something more like 45, 45, and 10.)

Radiation is not going to increase with the Pillar Vane rotor since it is a function of surface area and the temperature difference between the rotor and the air.

Convection is going to be hurt by a smaller air gap, but possibly improved by the pattern of internal, directional vanes. My gut feeling is that the two effects would cancel each other out. I don't really know for sure. A bench flow test would be required. This is such a skinny rotor that I don't think it would matter.

Conduction is a BAD way for a rotor to shed heat. It means heat is transferred to your wheel bearings and your brake fluid (by way of the pads, backing plates, and caliper pistons). Engineers do whatever they can to minimize this type of heat dissipation. Floating rotors help. Hard anodizing of rotor hats helps a little. And, of course, maximizing rotor size and airflow through the rotors helps even more.

kuah@splparts

In the test were the StopTech brakes using Axxis Ultimate pads (usually supplied with StopTech kits) and the stock track pacakge Brembo brakes using the Nissan/Brembo/Ferodo pads from the factory? I found the stock Nissan/Brembo/Ferodo pads to have less bite compared to Axxis Ultimates, the Ultimate pads dusted alot more though. Pads would have made a huge difference to the braking performance...

comeherez

Hey guys, let me know what you think of this!

I been looking around and haven't seen anything that even compares. These have thin Ti (patented design) rotors (very similar to those used in CART and Fomula Atlantic cars). They are now available for street cars with this kit. What does this mean? Rotational weight! A big rotor from AP Racing or Brembo weighs in at close to 25lbs per side. These Ti rotorsweigh in at 9lbs per side. That is a significant savings. Less rotational weight=greater stopping power and starting power (less weight to turn).

Kit comes with all mounting hardware, ti rotors, hats, calipers and 27,000psi capacity kevlar-coated SS brake lines (exactly like those used on the PANOZ racing car). Complete kit $3495.00

I'm getting ready to bring these to the market and being a 350Z owner wanted to get feedback from fellow owners. This brake system has been tried, tested and proven and is ready to change the brake industry.

Let me know if your interested or have any questions.

350on19inchVolk

Do you have photos pf the product, or a link to the manufactures web site? Hows the "streetability" of the kit? Do you have to get them up to an effective tempature?

The price sounds decent for something made of Titanium. Is any one running these already on the street?

comeherez

E-mail me and I will send you some pics, so far we have put them on an Acura Integra and a Porsche. The rotors will NOT wear out, they are awesome! leonardrick@hotmail.com

comeherez

I forgot to mention that we are a week away from putting them on our Z. The savings on rotational and unsprung weight have been unbelievable! These rotors have a patented design cut that makes them warp-proof and dramatically increases the heat dispersion properties of Ti. With their ceramic coating, these rotors have will show no sign of wear even after 5000 miles of hard braking.

350on19inchVolk

So the rotors are Ceramic coated??

I have heard from some guys in the past that have tried using Ti rotors but have not been able to come up with the proper pad combination. The just cooked every pad the could find.

The actual friction is between the ceramic coating on the rotor and what type of pad material????

comeherez

We have 4 different types of pad combinations, depending upon where you will be racing and/or daily driving will determine the style of pad that you will use. The wear with the appropriate pad is normal wear!

DZeckhausen

Actually, I have lots of questions. My goal is to keep expanding the brake offerings of my company. I already carry StopTech and Brembo and may soon be adding UUC Motorwerks brakes. If you've solved the problems that have kept titanium rotors off of passenger cars and road race cars, I would be very interested in working with you to bring these kits to market.

That being said, I have some very serious concerns that I hope you can address.

1. Titanium is not a good conductor of heat. In fact, it's a terrible conductor of heat. By building a rotor out of titanium, you have eliminated convection and conduction as mechanisms for shedding heat. Radiation alone accounts for about 50 percent, so you've cut the ability of the rotors to shed heat by half.

2. The lower mass of the titanium rotors means that, for any given stop, the temperature of the rotors will be higher than a heavier iron rotor. So, you have hotter rotors that are less able to shed heat. How do you deal with all this heat that will now be conducted through the pads and into the calipers and brake fluid? What sort of pads do you have with an MOT high enough to cope?

3. I'm sure you realize that titanium rotors are NOT used in road racing. So far, their application has been limited to sprint racers and other oval and circle track events where there is not much braking involved and weight savings are critical. How will you design these 350Z kits so they will be appropriate for road racing events?

4. Titanium has a VERY low coefficient of friction (less than .2) which is why it needs to be coated with a zinc/aluminide layer. This layer will wear off quickly unless you use an adherent mode pad. What sort of pads did you have in mind? How do you cope with the problem of loss of friction when/if the coating is worn away? Even the most adherent mode pads still have some abrasion and this coating will wear away.

If you've managed to solve all the problems that have kept titanium brakes out of passenger cars and road race cars up until now, then you truly will be ushering in a revolution in braking. I would love to hear more about your work.

comeherez

I know this is a bit lengthy but I hope it clears a few things up.

1. ALL Metals are good conductors of heat, in fact the test to see if you have a metal is to determine if the material is a conductor, semi-conductor or a non-conductor. You can do this in two ways. By heating the material in a controlled environment, you can determine it's thermal conductivity and assign the material a "specific heat", or how many BTU's of energy were required to heat 1 pound of the material, and I work with degrees Fahrenheit, so......Cast Iron has a specific heat of .10, Steel has a specific heat of .10, stainless steel has a specific heat of .12, grade 5 titanium has a specific heat of .13, and grade 2 a specific heat of .14.
In addition, carbon fiber has a specific heat of .16 and aluminum .23, copper is .09
The other way to measure a materials "expected" thermal conductivity is to measure it's electrical conductivity. Heat and electricity "move" through materials in the same fashion, one is just more efficient than another, therefore the numbers will not be the same, only the relationship, or what is termed "linear properties". That means the numbers will have the same relationship, just on a different scale.
Radiation and convection deal with surface area, although radiation has more to do with color of efficiency. Black colors absorb heat better than white??? Then why do Vietnamese work in black clothes? Black also radiates heat better than white. Heat energy, which I will go into later, has a simple rule - fast in fast out, slow in slow out. In other words, a lot of these questions are more based on the misconception of titanium rotors that have been ceramic coated in the past. Ceramics are great for "slowing" the temperature from reaching the material, but once it's in, ceramics are very slow to let it out. There's a way around this that I have discovered, but I do not want it publicly known.

Cast iron is slow in and slow out, which makes it a great "radiator" and aluminum is a quick in quick out material, which make it good for heat sinks or cooling devices, it is very quick to get rid of heat, if you hold a piece of aluminum over a candle, you will feel heat very fast, pull it out of the candle and it will cool down very fast. Place a piece of cast iron over a candle and you can hold it there a long time before you feel the heat, pick it up an hour later and it's still hot. In terms of brakes, aluminum would be the best choice because it sheds heat quicker, the problem is, it melts at 1000°F. Next would be carbon fiber, but it's too weak in tensile and degrades in the presence of oxygen. If you could make a .25" thick carbon fiber rotor and run your race in outer space, it would probably be the next best choice. The next best choice is titanium, which I can prove to you on the dynamometer by running an identical test on Ti vs. Cast, the Ti rotor can be grabbed with your bare hand after the test, come back in a few hours for the cast iron. Copper rotors would be the worst unless you want to cook with them after the race. Wood would be the opposite end of the spectrum for a good rotor as you would never get the heat in to begin with, which is why it makes for a good marshmallow roaster, you're hand never gets hot. Once you introduce enough energy, wood will burn for a long time because it can not transfer heat too quickly, if it did, it would burn very fast and you would have the three minute camp fire. Once wood is burnt, you have reduced it to "carbon", which is beginning to look like carbon fiber, and so the relationship continues.
2. That is correct titanium can be designed to have lower mass than cast iron because of it's strength to weight ratio. The density of iron is .283 and titanium is .16, so right away you can see it is lighter. The tensile strength of cast iron is 6,000 psi, while grade 5 titanium is 135,000 psi, so it's incredibly stronger. The rotors have less mass because they can. I can design an 18 lbs. titanium rotor and an 18 lbs. cast iron rotor, the titanium would be much bigger and still has the better specific heat. Which weighs more a ton of feathers or a ton of steel - they both weigh a ton right? This is a confusion of terms. The titanium will get hotter because it has less mass, once again, because we can. The rotor is not the weak link, the pad is. Street pads will fade faster than race pads. A quick answer to the question would be Mintex street and/or race pads.
3. We have had these pads on select road race cars for 8 years and it works. Once again, misconception and misinformation, mainly based on the simple fact that Ultra-light attempted this on a WSC car (the Dyson car with Butch Leitzinger) - The heat eventually overcame the ceramics and cooked the Pagid pads, and they blamed the titanium.
4. Coefficient of friction depends on two materials coming into contact. That's it. I would never use zinc-aluminide as a coating for a brake application, I do have a cheap dip coating that will work better and last longer for this type of application. In the case of our patented coating, the coating will wear away in 3 to 4 years (longer for street use). Any pad in the world can be used, including ceramic, although these have a low coefficient of friction with our coating (see two materials).