Finally got Brembo Brakes... Off an R35...
09-02-2009, 06:10 AM
#161
javier - post flics of your brembo brackets from your 6/4 setup.
For the record I have found Brembo to be IMPOSSIBLE to work with.
I know businesses that do well over $100k in business with them a
year, yet they refuse to even discuss my purchase of simple bracketry.
For all of the opinions posted about the "quality" of the r35 brake setup -
I have yet to see someone from BREMBO make a stand, so I will withhold
any of my (accurate) personal assessments of all the previously made
statements.
FACT - this setup is $11k all told (incl. taxes).
FACT - if i do complete this journey the setup will be one-off and likely never repeated.
FACT - no one knows just how well this setup will perform compared to other aftermarket setups once installed.
Can someone from BREMBO chime in here? ARE you using an inferior product on
the R35?
For the record I have found Brembo to be IMPOSSIBLE to work with.
I know businesses that do well over $100k in business with them a
year, yet they refuse to even discuss my purchase of simple bracketry.
For all of the opinions posted about the "quality" of the r35 brake setup -
I have yet to see someone from BREMBO make a stand, so I will withhold
any of my (accurate) personal assessments of all the previously made
statements.
FACT - this setup is $11k all told (incl. taxes).
FACT - if i do complete this journey the setup will be one-off and likely never repeated.
FACT - no one knows just how well this setup will perform compared to other aftermarket setups once installed.
Can someone from BREMBO chime in here? ARE you using an inferior product on
the R35?
09-02-2009, 06:43 AM
#163
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It really should not surprise you that they don't want to get involved in the bracket - this isn't what they do. They are not a place that does custom 1 off stuff. Nor do you need them quite honestly. $100k a year with one company is a substantial amount of business for a shop to do with a manufacturer, but nevertheless, it's just not their bag.
I do alot of business with NISMO Japan, and through contacts I've developed, know some people there for the better part of 10 years. When I wanted ITB's, I asked in a round about way, if I could perhaps buy the setup they have made for the 380RSC. IIt's a mixture of Jenvey parts with other in-house developed components. I got shot down in flames. Why? Simple - it's just not what it's for. Not everything is accessible to all people at all times unfortunately. Further, I am sure if I was able to convince them to let me get it, the price would have been so astronomically high, that it would kill it anyway. When you get into the manufacturing side, you can appreciate all angles. Think of their liability issues - any disclaimers you might sign notwithstanding. Too much risk for zero reward. What is their upside other than benevolence? You're dealing with a relatively large company, that has an international presence, and custom projects is just not something they get into. They are going to pay an engineer to CAD draw a bracket, do the analysis, and sell it to you as a one off piece. Are you interested in a $10,000 pair of brackets, because that's probably around what that will cost. If you are willing to pay that much, call 'em yourself, and tell them - I'd bet they would be interested. Perhaps consider calling a company that does do special projects - like Movit, in Europe, or one of the many companies that piece together their own Wilwood kits here in the US.
As mentioned, you don't need them. You need a machinist. A shop might be able to hack together a steel bracket that works, but they are not going to be able to develop a CNC'd bracket that you need unless this is the type of project they routinely do - and it's just not a common thing. Certainly a good machinist with a penchant for special projects is not hard to come by - start asking around locally, you'll find one.
I had this done to my own car several years ago (Datsun), but retrofitting a set of AP 6 piston front brakes with 14 inch, 2 piece rotors, to my '79 280ZX. I had a single pair of brackets made and a single pair of hats. It was never going to be anything that we sold, as it was beyond cost prohibitive. Your talking about a set that cost roughly 5 times what the entire car cost me originally back in '92 when I bought her. I asked them if they could do the stuff too...they said "no way". I didn't blame them - if I were them, I wouldn't risk it either. Sure, if a major car firm came to them with a special project, I am sure it could be commissioned. Or if they were getting into the retrofit market, or testing the waters making BBK's for older sports cars was on their horizon, perhaps. But they weren't interested in helping some random dude they don't know (even though we did business together previously) can have some fancy brakes on his 30 year old car. I can't blame them - it's not what they do.
I had a colleague at the time make them for me. It involved me sending the entire front hub/strut assembly to him along with the caliper and rotor. It took 2 months, and cost me around $1200 as I recall. Again, single pair of 5 inch long brackets, single pair of hats for the rotors, done as a buddy buddy thing. No hardware (had to figure that out on my own). No master cylinder work (that was left up to me), no bias calculations (again up to me), no brake lines (again, all me) - just the brackets and hats. This was also back around 7 years ago (I lost contact with the person since then). He was a machinist by trade and did this in his spare time as a "cool" project for ***** and giggles and a little extra spending money. That is what you need to find.
I won't pretend to know the difference between Brembo OEM and Brembo aftermarket. They are certainly 2 different products, for 2 vastly different consumers
I do alot of business with NISMO Japan, and through contacts I've developed, know some people there for the better part of 10 years. When I wanted ITB's, I asked in a round about way, if I could perhaps buy the setup they have made for the 380RSC. IIt's a mixture of Jenvey parts with other in-house developed components. I got shot down in flames. Why? Simple - it's just not what it's for. Not everything is accessible to all people at all times unfortunately. Further, I am sure if I was able to convince them to let me get it, the price would have been so astronomically high, that it would kill it anyway. When you get into the manufacturing side, you can appreciate all angles. Think of their liability issues - any disclaimers you might sign notwithstanding. Too much risk for zero reward. What is their upside other than benevolence? You're dealing with a relatively large company, that has an international presence, and custom projects is just not something they get into. They are going to pay an engineer to CAD draw a bracket, do the analysis, and sell it to you as a one off piece. Are you interested in a $10,000 pair of brackets, because that's probably around what that will cost. If you are willing to pay that much, call 'em yourself, and tell them - I'd bet they would be interested. Perhaps consider calling a company that does do special projects - like Movit, in Europe, or one of the many companies that piece together their own Wilwood kits here in the US.
As mentioned, you don't need them. You need a machinist. A shop might be able to hack together a steel bracket that works, but they are not going to be able to develop a CNC'd bracket that you need unless this is the type of project they routinely do - and it's just not a common thing. Certainly a good machinist with a penchant for special projects is not hard to come by - start asking around locally, you'll find one.
I had this done to my own car several years ago (Datsun), but retrofitting a set of AP 6 piston front brakes with 14 inch, 2 piece rotors, to my '79 280ZX. I had a single pair of brackets made and a single pair of hats. It was never going to be anything that we sold, as it was beyond cost prohibitive. Your talking about a set that cost roughly 5 times what the entire car cost me originally back in '92 when I bought her. I asked them if they could do the stuff too...they said "no way". I didn't blame them - if I were them, I wouldn't risk it either. Sure, if a major car firm came to them with a special project, I am sure it could be commissioned. Or if they were getting into the retrofit market, or testing the waters making BBK's for older sports cars was on their horizon, perhaps. But they weren't interested in helping some random dude they don't know (even though we did business together previously) can have some fancy brakes on his 30 year old car. I can't blame them - it's not what they do.
I had a colleague at the time make them for me. It involved me sending the entire front hub/strut assembly to him along with the caliper and rotor. It took 2 months, and cost me around $1200 as I recall. Again, single pair of 5 inch long brackets, single pair of hats for the rotors, done as a buddy buddy thing. No hardware (had to figure that out on my own). No master cylinder work (that was left up to me), no bias calculations (again up to me), no brake lines (again, all me) - just the brackets and hats. This was also back around 7 years ago (I lost contact with the person since then). He was a machinist by trade and did this in his spare time as a "cool" project for ***** and giggles and a little extra spending money. That is what you need to find.
I won't pretend to know the difference between Brembo OEM and Brembo aftermarket. They are certainly 2 different products, for 2 vastly different consumers
Last edited by Z1 Performance; 09-02-2009 at 06:49 AM.
09-02-2009, 07:30 AM
#164
As stated previously, a fellow nameless member, has stepped up to help.
Not only is he capable of producing the drawings, he can test the setup
via simulation prior to install. I find it very interesting that brembo is so
quick to talk down one of their most significant OE setups.
Not only is he capable of producing the drawings, he can test the setup
via simulation prior to install. I find it very interesting that brembo is so
quick to talk down one of their most significant OE setups.
09-02-2009, 07:31 AM
#165
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nobody from brembo is gonna bother with one guy trying to swap gtr brakes on his z. brembo is a top tier brakes manufacturer, they make brakes for f1, that means the 100k that you mentioned above is pocket change to them. and what your's doing is worth less than a fly. they're not gonna waste their time on something this little. if you were actually gonna buy the 6/4 kit from them like javy did, then they'd talk to you. but if you want help on a bracket to adapt one of their oem systems to a platform it wasn't designed for, they're not even gonna look at you...
09-02-2009, 07:43 AM
#166
As stated previously, a fellow nameless member, has stepped up to help.
Not only is he capable of producing the drawings, he can test the setup
via simulation prior to install. I find it very interesting that brembo is so
quick to talk down one of their most significant OE setups.
Not only is he capable of producing the drawings, he can test the setup
via simulation prior to install. I find it very interesting that brembo is so
quick to talk down one of their most significant OE setups.
09-02-2009, 08:05 AM
#167
nobody from brembo is gonna bother with one guy trying to swap gtr brakes on his z. brembo is a top tier brakes manufacturer, they make brakes for f1, that means the 100k that you mentioned above is pocket change to them. and what your's doing is worth less than a fly. they're not gonna waste their time on something this little. if you were actually gonna buy the 6/4 kit from them like javy did, then they'd talk to you. but if you want help on a bracket to adapt one of their oem systems to a platform it wasn't designed for, they're not even gonna look at you...
09-02-2009, 10:23 AM
#171
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Some great insight above from Z1Performance.
I would, but I can't find any I took before mounting them on the car - sorry!
I couldn't agree more. They sponsor me, so I get a lot of inquiries about development of components and future applications, and getting answers from them is like pulling teeth through mail order.
I don't think anyone is attacking the "quality" of the R35 kit - what I've gleaned from everyone's comments is that for less money and considerably less headache, you could get a kit that's specifically designed for your vehicle, albeit less obvious and not nearly as unique - and it's a very valid point. However, you've already stated you're trying to do something unique and distinct, so who cares what they think? If that's your goal, don't let those opinions bother you.
I wouldn't call it inferior, bad, poor, or anything but excellent. It is not, however, a Gran Turismo or Brembo Racing product, and as such isn't intended to provide the track-specific benefits of superior stiffness and fade resistance, which their 2 aftermarket products lines are specifically engineered for. That's not to say that you can't take them to the track and not have them perform admirably. It's just not really fair to compare them to the GT and Brembo racing kits. They're completely different units designed and manufactured in completely different parts of the world by two completely separate business units that don't talk to each other.
You have to remember, "Brembo" is not one person. The "Brembo" you want to talk to is in Detroit, and does nothing but propose, design, negotiate, and contract for the manufacture and supply of OEM braking systems. If your name isn't Nissan, Toyota, Porsche, or Ferrari, it's going to be next to impossible to get any attention from them. They want nothing to do with any aspect of the aftermarket, because that's not what they do - that's what Costa Mesa does. I found it pretty astonishing myself when I spoke to one of the Brembo Performance National Managers that even they don't speak to the OEM division in Detroit. That's why you see a lot of overlapping product lines for vehicles that come with Brembo components from the factory (i.e., for a car that comes stock with Brembo components, shouldn't I be able to upgrade to a GT kit without needing mounting brackets? Don't you have the design and specs already directly from the source? Answer was they are essentially separate companies and there is no communication between the two for several reasons.)
Good luck, I wish there was more I could do to help you!
Javier
I would, but I can't find any I took before mounting them on the car - sorry!
Good luck, I wish there was more I could do to help you!
Javier
09-02-2009, 10:25 AM
#172
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I feel your pain. I just got off the phone with Ferrari and they are hard to deal with also. All I wanted was blueprints to their F1 engine. Then I could see what kind of cams I need to swap into my car in order to run 18,000rpms. They were IMPOSSIBLE to work with. I know businesses that make well over 100k a year and I know Ferrari has sold 1 car for over 3 million. You think they would help me with my project .
09-02-2009, 10:31 AM
#173
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You have to remember, "Brembo" is not one person. The "Brembo" you want to talk to is in Detroit, and does nothing but propose, design, negotiate, and contract for the manufacture and supply of OEM braking systems. If your name isn't Nissan, Toyota, Porsche, or Ferrari, it's going to be next to impossible to get any attention from them. They want nothing to do with any aspect of the aftermarket, because that's not what they do - that's what Costa Mesa does. I found it pretty astonishing myself when I spoke to one of the Brembo Performance National Managers that even they don't speak to the OEM division in Detroit. That's why you see a lot of overlapping product lines for vehicles that come with Brembo components from the factory (i.e., for a car that comes stock with Brembo components, shouldn't I be able to upgrade to a GT kit without needing mounting brackets? Don't you have the design and specs already directly from the source? Answer was they are essentially separate companies and there is no communication between the two for several reasons.)
You have to remember, "Brembo" is not one person. The "Brembo" you want to talk to is in Detroit, and does nothing but propose, design, negotiate, and contract for the manufacture and supply of OEM braking systems. If your name isn't Nissan, Toyota, Porsche, or Ferrari, it's going to be next to impossible to get any attention from them. They want nothing to do with any aspect of the aftermarket, because that's not what they do - that's what Costa Mesa does. I found it pretty astonishing myself when I spoke to one of the Brembo Performance National Managers that even they don't speak to the OEM division in Detroit. That's why you see a lot of overlapping product lines for vehicles that come with Brembo components from the factory (i.e., for a car that comes stock with Brembo components, shouldn't I be able to upgrade to a GT kit without needing mounting brackets? Don't you have the design and specs already directly from the source? Answer was they are essentially separate companies and there is no communication between the two for several reasons.)
09-02-2009, 10:36 AM
#174
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DANG!!! I just got off the phone with BMW. I bought turbos from a 335 and I am trying to mount them on my 350z. These people are IMPOSSIBLE to work with! I know a few people who own BMWs so I know they made at 100k off the people I know. I can't believe they won't help me with my custom project. Anyone want these turbos? I am going to buy a supercharger from a Mercedes E55. I know more people that have spent money at MB then BMW so I am sure they will help me with my custom supercharger retrofit.
09-02-2009, 10:43 AM
#175
DANG!!! I just got off the phone with BMW. I bought turbos from a 335 and I am trying to mount them on my 350z. These people are IMPOSSIBLE to work with! I know a few people who own BMWs so I know they made at 100k off the people I know. I can't believe they won't help me with my custom project. Anyone want these turbos? I am going to buy a supercharger from a Mercedes E55. I know more people that have spent money at MB then BMW so I am sure they will help me with my custom supercharger retrofit.
09-02-2009, 10:43 AM
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Really 11k? and you are not even sure if it is any good?
Sucks bro!
My dad is the King of Uganda and he has over 3,000,000US currency locked away in a Swedish bank. Please send us 20,000 USA dollars so we may retrieve this money. Once we have the money we shall send you 1.2million Euro.
09-02-2009, 11:33 AM
#178
I simply wanted to purchase the brackets off the 6/4 setup derek.
Sight unseen. They have a separate product number for these items, f and r.
They refused to supply a simple product, out of their catalog, and that
my friend is complete BS. They have ZERO knowledge of the end use.
While you're busy jumping to conclusions about the content of my effort,
consider how little you've accomplished with your lollers.
I fully expected to be able to order brackets for one of their gt setups.
I feel bad for the people that purchased these kits and would NOT be able
to replace their bracketry if necessary.
Sight unseen. They have a separate product number for these items, f and r.
They refused to supply a simple product, out of their catalog, and that
my friend is complete BS. They have ZERO knowledge of the end use.
While you're busy jumping to conclusions about the content of my effort,
consider how little you've accomplished with your lollers.
I fully expected to be able to order brackets for one of their gt setups.
I feel bad for the people that purchased these kits and would NOT be able
to replace their bracketry if necessary.
09-02-2009, 12:34 PM
#179
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I simply wanted to purchase the brackets off the 6/4 setup derek.
Sight unseen. They have a separate product number for these items, f and r.
They refused to supply a simple product, out of their catalog, and that
my friend is complete BS. They have ZERO knowledge of the end use.
While you're busy jumping to conclusions about the content of my effort,
consider how little you've accomplished with your lollers.
I fully expected to be able to order brackets for one of their gt setups.
I feel bad for the people that purchased these kits and would NOT be able
to replace their bracketry if necessary.
Sight unseen. They have a separate product number for these items, f and r.
They refused to supply a simple product, out of their catalog, and that
my friend is complete BS. They have ZERO knowledge of the end use.
While you're busy jumping to conclusions about the content of my effort,
consider how little you've accomplished with your lollers.
I fully expected to be able to order brackets for one of their gt setups.
I feel bad for the people that purchased these kits and would NOT be able
to replace their bracketry if necessary.
You deal with higher end cars sometimes - try buying a replacement gauge cluster from, say, an F50 (even a lower end model, an F430), over the counter at the dealership you deal with, see what happens. I've been involved in such a transaction. It's a process to say the least - not a hard one mind you, but its procedural. As well it should be quite honestly, when you see things from their perspective. Different parts, same conecpt though.