benzz280

iTrader: (2)

Go grab and read the premier issue of Boost by Car and Driver, it has got an excellent article on why "those sexy rotors and calipers can do more harm than good"
If this article was written earlier, it would have saved many rounds of debates

Feel free to discuss

35oZephyR

iTrader: (4)

I kinda skimmed through this article.

Wasn't it implying that MOST aftermarket set-ups did more harm than good?

And that the bigger brake kits will allow better tap or speed adjustment braking for racing applications because of the increased responsiveness, but the braking distance will not be reduced?


I don't know..that's what I got when I skimmed through it. Seems a little fishy..maybe i'll go read it more thoroughly then pass judgement.

BDM

I am highly suspicious of the dubious performance claims of the aftermarket. Although I'm sure that there are some real (albeit minor) performance gains to be had by a few aftermaket parts, I just find it hard to believe that modern sport-type powerplants, which have been researched and tested to the umpteenth degree by teams of highly educated engineers armed with sophisticated computers, have much untapped power waiting to be freed up by a different intake, plenum, spark plug, etc. This is especially true when you consider that each team of engineers is competing against other manufacturers' teams of engineers to produce more powerful, more efficient, and more reliable powerplants. However, I have no doubt that taking a normally aspirated engine and strpping on a turbocharger or supercharger will make significant improvements.

Sure, theoretically bigger brakes could mean shorter stopping distances. But I'm sure that the OEM brakes will be better sorted out than some small company's and that this will make up for most of the big brake's size advantage.

azrael

The function of a big brake kit is to increase heat capacity and reduce brake fade in extreme conditions (i.e. the track).

On the street, bigger brakes rarely if ever reduce stopping distance. Stopping distance is primarily a function of the weight of the car and the tire's grip. The only way a "big brake kit" can reduce stopping distance is to adjust brake bias, and usually the stock brakes have a well-chosen bias, so any improvements in braking distance will be very minimal.

D@ActiveTuning

iTrader: (17)

Plenty of dyno tests prove well otherwise. Think about it...Even Nissan has NISMO which offers better performance than their OEM parts.

J Ritt

iTrader: (4)

Azreal is on target. The function of a BBK is heat capacity. Stock equipment is designed to function adequately around town, on the highway, etc. In most cases it is not designed for multiple consecutive stops from triple digit speeds. When this much heat is introduced into the system, it breaks down.

What we always tell our customers is that if you want shorter stopping distances, get stickier tires. In most scenarios of 60-0 and 100-0 tests at the airfield, we see at most a couple of feet difference in stopping distances. Most times, this is simply because we optimize front to rear balance and make sure that all 4 tires are being utilized properly to stop the car.
When you look at a 10 stop scenario from 100 however, it's a whole different ballgame. The stock systems typically start to fade out, boil fluid, pads deposit, etc., while our system feels and performs the same as it did on the first stop. More heat capacity...that's the value of a BBK. Lighter weight, stiffer pedal feel, better pad wear, less rotor wear, and easier modulation are all secondary benefits...many of which are derived directly from having greater heat capacity.

Any manufacturer that makes outlandish claims of massively shorter stopping distances on a one stop scenario is full of ****...plain and simple. If they tell you that, the red BS flag should rise to full mast.

The reality is, for regular old street driving a pad, line, and fluid upgrade is all you really need.

Jason Bourne

That's what I like about the StopTech guys. They don't BS their customers.

If I didn't track my car, I would save the $2000 and keep the stock brakes. Since I do track it (and I track it hard and often) the StopTech kit is great, but I don't pretend that it makes any real difference on my way to work.

The two advantages that a BBK like the StopTechs have over the factory (non-brembo) brakes are potentially slight optimization of bias (factory systems tend to have too much front bias to prevent drivers with low skill from getting sideways while braking and cornering) and quicker reaction time. With a multi-piston system, you're moving a few pistons and your pads towards the rotors, with a standard single piston caliper, the whole caliper has to float. The lower mass of moving parts in the BBK is worth a couple hundredths of a second in how quickly you clamp the rotors. But, as J Ritt mentions, these gains are pretty minor relative to the huge gains in heat capacity.

ard_josh

Brake effectiveness is only as good as the tires that are in contact with the road. I work with endless usa closely. We have different compound pads that have different mu levels. What you will notice is that with each upgrade in Mu levels. You also see that they suggest you run a grippier tire. With big brake kits, you will lose a bit of horsepower due to the rotational mass. Also big brake kits are best left to the track. I feel that a good set of pads and SS Lines with sticky tires will provide more than enough feel as well as margin of safety..

J Ritt

iTrader: (4)

My evil twin Jason Bourne is right...just a few more advantages to a setup like ours.

snolden

Ok, since i got you guys on the horn:

I track my car once a year, autocross once a year and drive hard.

High BP fluid (Motul), SS lines and full metal brake pads is what I run. I am eating rotors and pads pretty quick with spirited canyon runs. Is there any disadvantage to getting a BBK in normal driving? I wonder if I will eat less brake pads and rotors with a BBK than a stock diameter setup.

Trying to figure out what to do with limited dinero

35oZephyR

iTrader: (4)

If I recall correctly, you pretty much summed up the main points in the entire article right there.

ard_josh

snolden. if you keep with metallic pads then there is not much way to keep your rotors and pads from being eaten up. Are you always at the pads optimal temperature? Also.. Endless makes a ceramic carbon metallic pad that is somewhat streetable without chewing your rotors too much. and still have a temp range of 0-800 celcius. In my honest opinion. Brake pads alone are much more important than having that huuuge 8 pot between the wheels. You can only go as much as your tire's can give.

benzz280

iTrader: (2)

I think the moral of the story is "those auto manufacturers and reputable brake companies didn't waste endless hours of testing for nothing"

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

good thread gusy - its so refreshing to see truthful answers

jrotaryb

Upgrades for pads, lines and fluid is generally all you need for a street driven/autocrossed car. Good choices in these areas will make for a brake system that feels better (less slop, better pedal modulation), bites better and retains more heat than OEM equipment. There are really few downsides to these upgrades as most performance pads produce less dust than OEM (hawks are nice). Some may argue that rotor life is decreased but if you eat through rotors with yuor pad upgrade you did not choose pads wisely...a smart choice will be able to stop just as well or better in cold temps and take significantly more heat than OEM stuff. People make 2 common mistakes when upgrading to big brake kits...1st, they choose a pad that is WAY too aggressive and eats/grooves rotors and make noise. 2nd, they don't take their tires/suspension into consideration both of which have a HUGE effect on brake performance. Street cars should stick to the pads/lines/fluid/tire upgrades.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

though then again Jon, I'm not exactly regretting my BBK choice

jrotaryb

Hehe surely not...BBK kits aren't bad at all it's just that some people have the tendency to choose pads not suited to street temps and slam their cars to the ground without consideration for weight transfer and how that effects brake bias and handling balance. Many people over-spend and over-think on their mods (on any type of car) and attribute it to how it effects the car in a racing/track environment when the difference between a street car and a track car is in the conditions they are driven under. For the most part, the "keep it simple stupid" moto is good for street drivers as their cars have to perform in all kinds of conditions as opposed to a track car that needs everything in extremes.