EG1

350Zwannabe, you can expect people to react this way when people claim to beat faster cars. If the guy said he beat the car then admitted the driver must have been $hitty, we would accept that.

Assuming somewhat equal drivers, how the hell would a Z beat a low 13 sec car? I'm saying w/ I/H/E + ECU for the Z it would still be a drivers race! .02 Eric

ITR#203

whosdaddy, sorry to burst your bubble man but all Z 's got new wheels. The M's did not. Trust me on this one man. I'm not wrong. ALL THE WHEELS ON THE M's FOR EVERY YEAR IS THE 5 SPOKE WITH A LIP.

Also, they're right. Manuals are geared much more aggresively in general and also the torque converter will eat some power. IN CERTAIN CARS, the automatics are just as fast as the manual versions. Usually they have great low end and decent high end power and a TON of torque. For example, dont race automatic Corvettes while you are stock on the street. If you race a manual, you can hope for 1. an old guy who doesnt shift correctly or 2. an over zealous guy who redlines 1st to be forced into 4th due to GM 1-4 feature . Also, due to GM's efforts to prevent the 5.7L from being a gas guzzler, the 6 speed is geared rather high. However, if you race an automatic, there are usually no mistakes made. Even then, it doesnt mean that the automatic versions are faster, it simple means that they are more consistant. Also, even in this case, the gears for the 4 speed auto cant match the 6 speed manual, even though for such a high torque, low rev engine a 6 speed is pretty much for gas mileage and bragging rights. Even when there are the same number of gears such as in the base RSX's, the 5 speed automatic's gearing is much less aggressive than the 5 speed manual. Finally, a quick shift by a human can take as little as .3 to .4 seconds. On average, an shift by an automatic is around .7 to .8. Doesnt sound like much, but that is time you could be accelerating instead of shifting.

In conclusion, even if you did beat the S54 motor M roadster, you beat the driver not the car.

mohsinmomin

I just raced my friends M3 guys, and too tell you....i think our 350z's have excellent handeling, better then the M, our race started off light...but we hit speeds up for 140 and i took some shoulders wit my car...but officially i won, but we called it a draw, b/c i supposedly (CHEATED) by taking shoulders. We got flicked off many times by a lot of ppl.

whosdady

iTrader: (6)

Siggy: No where in my post did I say an auto has less HP because of gearing. [QUOTE]Originally posted by SiGGy
[B]HA, automatic transmission does not haves less HP due too gearing...

What I did say is the lack of hp from the 5AT is compensated by a change in gearing, more specifically lower gearing

Siggy wrote: "You do realize that auto transmissions take a 20-23% drive train loss where as a manual will take 15%." WRONG NOT EVEN CLOSE

Show me a Z 5AT that has 23% loss. The highest I have seen is maybe 20% but I have seen 6MT with up to 18% loss. 17% is considered average for a 6 MT. The way you quoted it, which is amusing by the way... The 6 MT comes stock with 17+ more hp than a stock 5AT. Do you really beleive that? In reality its closer to 8 more hp.

Siggy wrote:"To take your 14.x car into the 12's is going to take an easy 70WHP. Thats WHEEL horse power! That's some impressive bolt on mods". NOT

What 14.x sec. car are you talking about? Not mine. Take a look around the forum. More Z's are running 13's than 14's STOCK. I'm not saying they are running low or mid 13's but they are 13's. If you don't think guys can lower their 1/4 times by .6 of a sec with bolts ons? Let me be the first to welcome you to the wonderful world of imports.

ITR wrote: "A quick shift by a human can take as little as .3 secs...On average a shift by an automatic may take .8 sec"
The .3 sec may occur by a human only if he is using F1 shifting which is a glorified auto not a manual. And yes .8 sec shifts may be found in a 1969 dodge stationwagon Autos in most cars shift quicker, just so you know.

By the way, the only thing bursting is me with laughter.

SiGGy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by whosdady
[B]Siggy: No where in my post did I say an auto has less HP because of gearing. You never fail to amaze me with your lack of wisdom.

Manual cars are almost always .2 .5 faster in the 1/4 mile. A good driver can shift faster than an automatic transmission. Unless you have a sub 8 second card a manual will be faster.

Where have you been? This your 1st sports car?

And yes, the manual does *HAVE* almost 15hp more. Automatics take a lot fo drivetrain loss. It does not COME with 15hp more. both engines are the same output. But there is a 20+% drivetrain loss on an auto vs. a 15% on a manual.

Show me a stock automatic running a 13.xx. Not going to happen.

read you prior posts. You said you expected a 12 second car /w intake/ plenum/emu/headers/exhaust. Sorry not going to happen.

G*Rated{350z}

Go buy the best motoring vol. 6. it shows the 350z beating the m3 around a track. The m3 has more power then the 350 so ofcoarse it beats it on straight aways. But the m3 is too heavy to beat it around the track.

SiGGy

never discussed the circle track.

Just pointing out whodaddys *opinions*. and there lack of facts.

With his 13.2 second beating automatic 350z LMFAO

rodH

iTrader: (2)

actually, if you read the Drivers words (translation) he says (on the straight) "I should gain on him here"......then a few seconds later he says something like "I can't catch him, I can't gain on him" the M3 was smoked in that video, I guess the course was too tight, but honestly I didn't think it was that tight.

I honestly think that on most courses the M is faster though.

Javi

G*rated and rodH, you guys have provided a very good example (if not the best, it is easier than going to the streets and taping a street race )

I think that the Option and the Best Motoring Vol.6 videos are the best examples to prove that the 350Z can take the M3. If the M3 was sooo fast as some people have stated, if its sooo quick, it would have smoked the 350z in the straights, at least gain on him, but it didn't even got close. I'm sorry fellas, but a stock M3 is not a threat to a 350z. It IS a good challenge, but nothing to be afraid of.

failsafe

Are you serious?

Finality

Perhaps on tracks with long straights where peak horespower comes more into play you would see the M3 pulling ahead. I dont see it in most cases though. Yes the M3 has about 50 bhp more but it lacks the torque that you need. The M3 runs 206 bhp/ton vs 197 bhp/ton for the 350Z, thats extremely close. Couple that with a torque advantage at the low end and a better torque to weight ratio as well and you have a better track machine.

whosdady

iTrader: (6)

Siggy: You ask for facts, I will show you facts.

https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....uto+1%2F4+mile

One of my favorite track posts on this forum was made by an automatic 350Z owner (JimH). On his very first day at the track he ran a 14.1 stock. Not bad! Not 13's but still stock and on his first day. He also ran in full auto mode which happens to be slightly slower than the shift-tronic mode. (Ask any auto owner) Also the elevation was like 1800ft. Given some experience at the track and using the shift-tronic feature, he would have easily hit 13's. Think also if he was racing at a lower elevation?

Now you may wonder why I tell you this story... Its not a 13 second story but I like it because he speaks of another 350Z with a 6 MT that can not break 14.5's. You may ask what does this mean? Translation: Same day, same time, same track, different tranny. The 5 AT crushed the 6MT multiple times. *FACT*

Now I expect you, with infinite wisdom to say that the other driver was poor and that the 5 AT was only able to beat the driver. I can't tell you thats not entirely true. What I can tell you is that I could not find another post on this forum where a 6 MT on the same day, same track beat a 5 AT. I can also tell you that JimH is most likely hitting 13's by now, and that when I take my car to the track next week that I will also be running 13's. Granted I will have exhaust and intake, but that is it. It will be my first time at the track with this car. If you would like I would be happy to invite you to come to St. Louis, as you are not too far away living in Kansas.

On a side note, I am happy to see that you have lowered your calculated drivetrain loss (of the 5 AT) from your previous post by 3% which is much more accurate. Now all you need to do is raise the drivetrain loss of the 6 MT and your knowledge about drivtrain loss will be complete.

As far as my background in racing: I sold (my baby) a 10 sec single turbo supra in December 02. It was a SP63 *6 speed* It dynoed at 509 rwhp on low boost When it was stock I hit a 13.2 my very first day at the track. Prior to that, the only other true sports car I had was a Dodge Stealth with NOS and exhaust. Nothing to be proud of but in its time, it was a fun car. I have since had a couple BMW's and most recently a modified SC400, which was actually faster than my Z. Please share with me your previous and current collection of cars.

As far as my "13.2 sec beating automatic" I think you misunderstood me. My car is not a 13.2 sec car currently. Never have I stated this. I have a high 13 sec car that is able to run with cars that also have 13 sec times

In six months when more mods are available, you will be kicking yourself for making such foolish remarks early on about the Z. The 350 will easily hit 12's with the mods I have referenced. Surely with such wisdom and a background in cars, you have seen bolt-ons bring cars 1/4 down by 1 sec or more. The Z is no exception. Sorry dude but that is a fact!

And if you decide to respond to this post again, please post something meaningful and factual Thanks Siggy for playing

Mr B

iTrader: (2)

That track wasn't TOO tight... (referring to Best Motoring Video) but if you put the M3 and Z somewhere like the big track and Willow Springs, I think it might be a different story. At higher speeds, the M will have an advantage and that course gets pretty fast. For some reason, I'm not sure if a magazine comparo used that course or not. It was a Z06, M3 (i think), a 911 targa, and a Z. Was it Willow Springs?

SiGGy

Kicking myself? HAH, keep on topic and subject here smarty,.

You still haven't showed a 13 second automatic run. Manuals are in the 13's. Barely.

You said your car pulled with a 13.2 car. And said you would have pulled on it given more time? Want me to QUOTE your BS?

Show me a 12 second run /w your intake,plenum,headers,pulleys.
Those mods are not going to let you dip into the 12's.

Add up the Um "bolt on mods' it's going to take 70+WHP to drop from a 14.3 to a 12.9 car. How close to I/H/E/P come to 70 WHP now?

Thanks for playing? Playing what? Your stupidity? I assume you purchased the single turbo supra already mod'd. And haven't the slightest about it. Whats your handle on supraforums? No one with that kind of knowledge would be saying the things you are.

facts...

no auto is in the 13's stock. I don't mean a 13.99 whim run /w a 10mph wind on your back. 13's consistently.

No auto is going to do a high 12 with I/P/E/H. What do autos run now with headers & intake?

I assume what most stock autos run 14.3? ****, I'd give you a run for your money in my Acura CLS. I run a 14.1.

You honestly believe a automatic is faster than a manual according to your statements... And your automatic pulled on a 315hp roadster.

Pass the crack pipe dude...

Also, My friend owns a 240hp Roadster, I've raced him more times than I can count. Thats what you raced, since I run about the same times as you car would. B.T.W mines also an auto

When are you going to admit that?

nice supra b.t.w. I really like those cars, too bad you sold it

Also, I didn't lower my drivetrain loss. I have been racing and dynoing cars for 10 years almost now. I have seen on avg 20-23% drivetrain loss. Sucks if your manual transmission isn't a 15% drivetrain loss.

BMW is one of the few who makes a good automatic transmission from a drive train loss perspective.

zealot

I hate to say it, but after watching BM 6 the Japanese bias was quite obvious. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it for what it is - entertainment. Look at it this way: two Japanese test cars, two german test cars and one Japanese camera car (Skyline). Throughout the whole test the Skyline was almost deliberately keeping the germans at bay by constantly cutting them off instead of staying out of the way. Also, the Japanese are well know for their ethnocentrism and national bias. Do you honestly think that the Japanese drivers of the German cars were not taking a dive at least a bit? National pride is on the line. I know I am going to get flamed for this, but being a Z owner I really don't care. I will gladly admit that the M3 is a faster (if not neccessarily better handling car) but for 15k-25k USD it better be! Also, BM is entertainment first and an attempt at an accurate test last. It is more like an auto WWF then a unbiased accurate comparo. I'm not even going to bring up driver skill, but that is another factor as well.

In any case, nomex suit and gloves are on. Fire away.

G.C.

whosdady

iTrader: (6)

Siggy wrote: " Manuals are in the 13's. Barely".
Manuals have hit 13.6X stock. Not all of them do and certainly not on their first day at the track but it has happened. A 13.6, just so you know is not barely in the 13's.

I posted and showed you with the accompaning thread, a situation where a stock 5 AT destroyed a 6 MT on the same day, same time, same track. If you will validate threads from other forums I will post of other auto runs in the high 13's which include 13.9X"s. (Still 13's) Please try to locate a thread where a 6 MT crushed a 5 AT in the 1/4 on the same day, at the same time...

My car did pull on the Roadster. Are you saying this isn't possible? Add up the torque numbers. I had more than he had, that should help you understand.

As far as 70 rwhp... Where did you pull this number from? Did that sound like a nice even number that day? You must be be a true expert with your high 14-15 sec Acura that has probably never seen the track.

I can't beleive I am even expalaing the Z to someone who doesn't own one, much less a sports car Thanks for including your background and current car collection.

As far as the Supraforums, I am a member and have been since conception. Please do a search to validate this information. I use the same screen name there as well.

You are, as usual *incorrect* with your assumption about my Supra. I did it from the ground up. I started in 94, went BPU and I went APU this past summer. If you are familiar with Larry at SP otherwise known as the Supra God, he would be happy to verify any information you would like. In fact, Larry and I are still very close and if I choose to go F/D on my Z he will be doing the install.

In conclusion if the truth be known, I did buy a 2001 BMW M3 a few months back on EBAY. You can check my screen name/feedback, same name as here. I ended up selling it because of my dissapointment after driving one for the day. It is slightly faster stock in a straight line than a stock Z. It does have a slightly better build quality IMO. However, for the price you get much more with the Z. $2K from now my Z will blow away any stock M3 in a straight line or around corners and I will have saved $20K.

I will try to let you post anything you would like without further response from myself. You have demonstrated your lack of knowledge multiple times about import racing. You appear to be the common troll not even having a 350. Go try to tell my Supra buddies that a 6 speed is faster in the 1/4 than an auto. I'm just warning you that you better have a thick flame suit on. I'm one of the nice guys Its a fact, the autos are much faster in the 1/4.

A suggestion for you may be to go back to the CL forums where others like yourself dream of having cars like the Z. I can only imagine the rush you get from pretending you know more about the Z than the actual owners

rodH

iTrader: (2)

and what is your grassy knowle (sp?) behind the mag test between the Z, M3 and 911??

zealot

"Grassy knowle" (sic)? If you are refering to this Road and Track article, then I think it speaks for itself. Unless you had something else in mind, I think this is one of the better evaluations of where the three stand in terms of the price/performance breakdown. You will also notice that even though the Z beat both the M3 SMG and the 911 Targa on value, it lost huge to the Corvette Z06. American bias? Perhaps. But at least this test started off stating that the comparison is as subjective as it gets. It's hard to put a score on value. BM on the other hand made it a race. By default a race has winners and losers and it is supposed to be objective: the winner does not change based on who viewes the race.

G.C.

mohsinmomin

Today me and my friend switched cars, I drove him m3 smg II and he drove my 350z...and gotta tell you guys M3 is one fast car...after about 110 MPH...that car is still gunning it like its going from 60-80...we will need turbos in our car to beat and M3, and I heard that the dyno HP of M3 is 300...any1 know?

Finality

~280 bhp from memory

Once you get into tripple digit speeds HP plays more into effect than just power, aero and other factors play into effect rather than just pure power to weight ratios.