JWT C8R cams
02-19-2008, 06:42 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
On a Dynojet, my car would put out higher #'s on a Dynojet, and even higher on a Dynapac
p.s.
Everyone I am joking...
Last edited by BlackTuner; 02-19-2008 at 06:44 PM.
02-19-2008, 06:45 PM
#42
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nice! We'll get it down there soon, I want a "Black Tuner" map on my laptop because it sounds like a cool mod to have 
a built HR would be sweet to see...someone should do it!
a built HR would be sweet to see...someone should do it!
Last edited by Z1 Performance; 02-19-2008 at 06:48 PM.
02-19-2008, 06:47 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by gothchick
I'm debating on a 3.8L non-sleeved stroker build. Not sure if the extra $5K ~$6k for a 3.8L build over a 3.5L build is worth it though... Can't wait to see Kwame's stroker build when it's finished.
02-19-2008, 08:47 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
Erin - why would a non sleeved 3.8 cost so much more?
02-19-2008, 09:01 PM
#45
within the next 60 days I will have my new engine together. BC 264's and wiseco/eagle rods pistons. I just want something to hold together on track days. A wiseman said something very interesting to me a long time ago "Race cars don't need vtec". What he meant was that you pick your rpm range you want to make power and choose your cam.
02-19-2008, 09:06 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by 1cockyZ
within the next 60 days I will have my new engine together. BC 264's and wiseco/eagle rods pistons. I just want something to hold together on track days. A wiseman said something very interesting to me a long time ago "Race cars don't need vtec". What he meant was that you pick your rpm range you want to make power and choose your cam.
Thats kinda hard on new cars these days. The software will ultimatley decide where most the power is.
02-20-2008, 10:03 AM
#47
Kyle at Import Parts Pro has a nice head package:
Stage 3:
Notes:
Choice of Upgraded Cams
Ferrea Oversize Intake and Exhaust Valves
Ferrea Heavy Duty Valve Springs
Ferrea Titanium Retainers
Ferrea Valve Spring Locators
Ferrea Valve Locks
Heads inspected and cleaned
Heads redecked
Ported exhaust and intake runners
5 angle radius cut valve job
New OEM Valve stem seals installed
Valve Stem Heights set
Cold Clearance set for stock cams
Heads prepped and assembled
Stage 3:
Notes:
Choice of Upgraded Cams
Ferrea Oversize Intake and Exhaust Valves
Ferrea Heavy Duty Valve Springs
Ferrea Titanium Retainers
Ferrea Valve Spring Locators
Ferrea Valve Locks
Heads inspected and cleaned
Heads redecked
Ported exhaust and intake runners
5 angle radius cut valve job
New OEM Valve stem seals installed
Valve Stem Heights set
Cold Clearance set for stock cams
Heads prepped and assembled
02-20-2008, 10:12 AM
#48
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Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
NISMO VTC pullies may still be gettable depending who you know. Last set we got we were told it was the last set they had, but who knows. I don't have them, nor will I be using them as I don't want to rip my heads apart just to install them. We have them going on kwame's car because his cams (Tomei 280) necessitate them.
In my small block Chevy racing days, a camshaft Designer would tell me where to install a new camshaft. We called it "Degreeing" the cam. I would find TDC of the piston and then TDC of the camshaft lobe and insert an offset bushing in the timing gear so that the cam was aligned per the designers specifications. Is that what we are talking about here?
How do cams necessitate needing VTC?
02-20-2008, 10:12 AM
#49
Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
Erin - why would a non sleeved 3.8 cost so much more?
The GTM non-sleeved stroked short block is $6,600 + additional $$ for other little things that come up.
Kyle at Import Parts Pro has a nice complete 3.5L short block for $2,600 (after core refund).
Including:
-Wiseco Pistons .020 over
-Eagle Rods
-ARP Rod Bolts
-Block inspected and cleaned
-Block redecked
-Block Bored and Honed using a Torque Plate
-Rotating assembly balanced to 50%
-Crank magnafluxed and the journals micro-polished
-New Moly coated Race Spec main bearings installed
-New Moly coated Race Spec rod bearings installed
-Block prepped and assembled
The difference on paper is only $4k, but I was also factoring in a "fudge factor" for a stroker build...
Last edited by gothchick; 02-20-2008 at 10:32 AM.
02-20-2008, 10:38 AM
#51
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Originally Posted by __jb
Does VTC stand for Variable Timing Control? I'm assuming (dangerous) that these are adjustable timing gears that let you adjust the camshaft timing.
In my small block Chevy racing days, a camshaft Designer would tell me where to install a new camshaft. We called it "Degreeing" the cam. I would find TDC of the piston and then TDC of the camshaft lobe and insert an offset bushing in the timing gear so that the cam was aligned per the designers specifications. Is that what we are talking about here?
How do cams necessitate needing VTC?
In my small block Chevy racing days, a camshaft Designer would tell me where to install a new camshaft. We called it "Degreeing" the cam. I would find TDC of the piston and then TDC of the camshaft lobe and insert an offset bushing in the timing gear so that the cam was aligned per the designers specifications. Is that what we are talking about here?
How do cams necessitate needing VTC?
some cams will "need" more adjustment than even the stock vtc pullies allow for to maintain good idle and a broader power band...cams with more extreme durations and ramp angles.
Erin - you could do sleeves and 100mm pistons and end up at a 3.8 liter as well, using a stock crank. Again, you can certainly gain the extra cc via altering stroke too, it just depends what you want. Unless you are going for a more extreme NA build, you wont really derive much benefit from oversized valves IMHO..except alot more expensve. Also, give Head Games a call too....if I didn't have my own guy for all our stuff, that is who I would use to build the head. As for the block, I'd simply get the components and have a machinist local to you do it....much easier to go this route should a problem arise down the line IMHO
02-20-2008, 10:43 AM
#53
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Originally Posted by 1cockyZ
within the next 60 days I will have my new engine together. BC 264's and wiseco/eagle rods pistons. I just want something to hold together on track days. A wiseman said something very interesting to me a long time ago "Race cars don't need vtec". What he meant was that you pick your rpm range you want to make power and choose your cam.
02-20-2008, 01:25 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
yes that is correct
some cams will "need" more adjustment than even the stock vtc pullies allow for to maintain good idle and a broader power band...cams with more extreme durations and ramp angles.
some cams will "need" more adjustment than even the stock vtc pullies allow for to maintain good idle and a broader power band...cams with more extreme durations and ramp angles.
02-20-2008, 03:42 PM
#56
Originally Posted by 1cockyZ
A wiseman said something very interesting to me a long time ago "Race cars don't need vtec". What he meant was that you pick your rpm range you want to make power and choose your cam.
Broadly speaking inlet valve opening position is more important than inlet valve closing position for making power in the lower to midrange. Inlet valve closing is a lot more important in high revs.
VTC allows a bit of the best of both worlds.
But lets get back to the topic of JWT C8 cams.
In the static position (phasers off ) the inlet valve opens at 13 deg BTDC & closes 79 ATDC for a total duration of 272 deg. Remember this is adv duration.
@ .50" where measurable flow starts, the inlet valve opening will be at ATDC with phaser off & this is where the OE ECU has placed the cam at just over 6k.
Now I dont believe that this is the sweet spot for this cam @ 6 to 7.5k
As more NA motors are tuned by the Haltech platinum or others we will soon find out.
Last edited by Nathan; 02-20-2008 at 04:14 PM.
02-20-2008, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ke0ki2k
<-- most impatient person ever.
I have some ideas for alternative vtc control on the intake and exhaust cams that may work out too. I may even play with it before I get the cams in the car to see what can be done.
02-20-2008, 05:39 PM
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Nathan, do you know if you can adjust the VTC angles past 6600 rpms on the non-revup motors? When I was tuning my car at UpRev they told me the even though they were adjusting the VTC angle past 6600 rpm it wasn't actually changing past 6600 rpm.
I discovered for my car with the Tomei 272 cams I needed about 8 to 10 degrees past 6200. I wouldn't be surprised if the JWT C8 cams would need around the same VTC angle. I think it would be a good ball park to start with.
I discovered for my car with the Tomei 272 cams I needed about 8 to 10 degrees past 6200. I wouldn't be surprised if the JWT C8 cams would need around the same VTC angle. I think it would be a good ball park to start with.
02-20-2008, 08:03 PM
#59
Originally Posted by rednezz
Nathan, do you know if you can adjust the VTC angles past 6600 rpms on the non-revup motors? When I was tuning my car at UpRev they told me the even though they were adjusting the VTC angle past 6600 rpm it wasn't actually changing past 6600 rpm.
I discovered for my car with the Tomei 272 cams I needed about 8 to 10 degrees past 6200. I wouldn't be surprised if the JWT C8 cams would need around the same VTC angle. I think it would be a good ball park to start with.
I discovered for my car with the Tomei 272 cams I needed about 8 to 10 degrees past 6200. I wouldn't be surprised if the JWT C8 cams would need around the same VTC angle. I think it would be a good ball park to start with.
What I do know is that the stock ECU only changes the lobe centre of the inlet cam from retarded 125 deg to advanced 90 deg a total of 35 deg. But the VTC sprocket has a full 20 deg range of movement which = 40 deg @ the crank. ( I've measured it )
HKS with Valcon plus cam kit advertise that they get an extra 5 deg of advance over stock & they don't change the sprockets. I would assume they get it electronically but maybe they grind the lobe centers with 5 deg advance but I wouldn't think so.
The Nismo S2 dealer program advertises the VTC increased from 40 to 50 deg but I dont know if it includes a new ECU or a reflash.
At 6600 + rpm you would certainly not want a inlet cam lobe centre @ 125 deg
Between 10 to 15 is probably a good start point & that makes the lobe center now 115 to 110
I hope Black Tuner does get something to work with the Utec as I don't want to buy another ECU