Blueprint and Balance (Engines)
#1
Blueprint and Balance (Engines)
Discussion on another thread was asking about blueprint and balance. I thought I would include some of the information that was provided to me from ERL (http://www.erlperformance.com) during my engine build.
I am a nissan Z enthusiast and have owned four nissan z's ranging from an 1987 turbo 300zx to my current modified 350z TT. I am not associated with or represent any vendors on this or any other site.
Engine Specs Provided
Crankshaft: Brian Crower 86.4 mm Stroke (Power Enterprise)
Pistons: CP 100 mmm (part #: 70825, Pins 866-2500-20CP3C)
Rings: CP (part #: Rs1658-3937-0)
Rods: Brian Crower (Part#: BC6228) C/L to C/L 5.675, Bores 2.165/0.866
Main Bearings: ACL (part# 4M2633HX-Std)
Rod Bearings: ACL (part#: 6B2640HX-Std)
Thrust Bearings: ACL (part#: 2T2633-Std)
ERL 4 Point Main Girdle
Engine block with Darton Sleeves (M.I.D. kit sleeves)
Cylinder Hone to Piston Spec
ARP Main Stud Kit
Rotating Assembly Balance
Engine Clearances: See attachment
Have numerous other spec sheets, but I thought this would give those interested an idea of what should be provided.
I am a nissan Z enthusiast and have owned four nissan z's ranging from an 1987 turbo 300zx to my current modified 350z TT. I am not associated with or represent any vendors on this or any other site.
Engine Specs Provided
Crankshaft: Brian Crower 86.4 mm Stroke (Power Enterprise)
Pistons: CP 100 mmm (part #: 70825, Pins 866-2500-20CP3C)
Rings: CP (part #: Rs1658-3937-0)
Rods: Brian Crower (Part#: BC6228) C/L to C/L 5.675, Bores 2.165/0.866
Main Bearings: ACL (part# 4M2633HX-Std)
Rod Bearings: ACL (part#: 6B2640HX-Std)
Thrust Bearings: ACL (part#: 2T2633-Std)
ERL 4 Point Main Girdle
Engine block with Darton Sleeves (M.I.D. kit sleeves)
Cylinder Hone to Piston Spec
ARP Main Stud Kit
Rotating Assembly Balance
Engine Clearances: See attachment
Have numerous other spec sheets, but I thought this would give those interested an idea of what should be provided.
Last edited by radiologue; 10-27-2008 at 07:48 PM. Reason: Placed engine clearances in attachment
#2
Anybody have any comments on engine blueprinting, rotating assembly balance, effects on longevity, and current practices of the "vendors" in the Z community?
Last edited by radiologue; 10-27-2008 at 07:59 PM.
#4
i do have questions about your spec sheet though,the ring gap and other specs are almost too perfect.file file rings are very difficult to get that consistent.there is alot missing,but it's more than anyone else has produced.
#5
The information provided is right off the spec sheet provided to me from ERL. The only way I would know that the values are not true would be to have my engine sent to a third party. I have no reason to believe that they are not valid measures though. Note that ERL was not selling me the engine and had nothing to gain by falsifying the measures. There job was to hone and sleeve block, clearance where needed for the Brian Crower Stroker, install / clearance main girdle, blueprint, and rotating assembly balance. They were not selling me anything (except the main girdle) other than services.
#6
Not really much that should/can be commented on - some places do it, some places don't. I personally wouldn't install an engine into my own car that didn't go through such a process, but others opinions will vary. There is no doubt it has obvious benefits for engine performance, longevity, etc. I've said this a few times in a few different threads, but the engine builder is the single most important part of the build process, followed by the tuner. I can't comment on what others may or may not practice, since I don't know them, and we don't sell built motors.
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#9
Not really much that should/can be commented on - some places do it, some places don't. I personally wouldn't install an engine into my own car that didn't go through such a process, but others opinions will vary. There is no doubt it has obvious benefits for engine performance, longevity, etc. I've said this a few times in a few different threads, but the engine builder is the single most important part of the build process, followed by the tuner. I can't comment on what others may or may not practice, since I don't know them, and we don't sell built motors.
Last edited by go-fast; 10-28-2008 at 10:18 AM.
#11
not a waste at all,tight clearance is not something attributed to wear,deck height doesn't change,big end dia,main dia,bore sampled below the piston skirt,valvelash,spring installed height,chamber volume.the list goes on,but comparative data is available.
#12
data is there yes, but it's not anything you can necessarily bank on is my point. I don't have to tell you metal does funny things when it overheats, or is starved of oil, etc. etc. Does it help? Absolutely, but you can't always verify if something was done to spec, or not to spec after she's given up the ghost. It all really depends on "how" it blew, but I digress.
#13
data is there yes, but it's not anything you can necessarily bank on is my point. I don't have to tell you metal does funny things when it overheats, or is starved of oil, etc. etc. Does it help? Absolutely, but you can't always verify if something was done to spec, or not to spec after she's given up the ghost. It all really depends on "how" it blew, but I digress.
#14
I used to work with guy that dirt tracked and drag raced on the weekends and dominated the tracks. He was hated by many, not because he kept winning, but because he used junk parts to build his engines. Most would spend thousands on their engines while he would use used and unmatched parts. I've seen the guy grind the hump off a piston with a hand grinder, polish bearings with scotch brite for clearance, set a set of springs using a drill press and a set of bath room scales, on and on and on.
I built some motors with him and learned many of his tricks. That being said, put him in a top notch machine shop and he could build you a motor that would last forever and run like a scalded ape. The main thing he always pointed out was feel during the assembly. If the crank didn't feel right he would pull it, if the rings and piston didn't feel right, he would adjust.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that anyone can generate numbers, making it all work together is the key.
#15
Not to try and rain on your parade, but without all the inside info, the spec are just what they are and nothing more.
I used to work with guy that dirt tracked and drag raced on the weekends and dominated the tracks. He was hated by many, not because he kept winning, but because he used junk parts to build his engines. Most would spend thousands on their engines while he would use used and unmatched parts. I've seen the guy grind the hump off a piston with a hand grinder, polish bearings with scotch brite for clearance, set a set of springs using a drill press and a set of bath room scales, on and on and on.
I built some motors with him and learned many of his tricks. That being said, put him in a top notch machine shop and he could build you a motor that would last forever and run like a scalded ape. The main thing he always pointed out was feel during the assembly. If the crank didn't feel right he would pull it, if the rings and piston didn't feel right, he would adjust.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that anyone can generate numbers, making it all work together is the key.
I used to work with guy that dirt tracked and drag raced on the weekends and dominated the tracks. He was hated by many, not because he kept winning, but because he used junk parts to build his engines. Most would spend thousands on their engines while he would use used and unmatched parts. I've seen the guy grind the hump off a piston with a hand grinder, polish bearings with scotch brite for clearance, set a set of springs using a drill press and a set of bath room scales, on and on and on.
I built some motors with him and learned many of his tricks. That being said, put him in a top notch machine shop and he could build you a motor that would last forever and run like a scalded ape. The main thing he always pointed out was feel during the assembly. If the crank didn't feel right he would pull it, if the rings and piston didn't feel right, he would adjust.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that anyone can generate numbers, making it all work together is the key.
#16
Yes, that is the question that I am asking. What are the practices of the engine builders in this Z community? What has been done up front to assure that your investment doesn't go up in smoke? How do we further the progression of the VQ development? Will the sharing of blueprints, engine failures and successes, and other technical information on the boards help us or is that secret proprietary information that is too sacred to dissemenate?
#17
Yes, that is the question that I am asking. What are the practices of the engine builders in this Z community? What has been done up front to assure that your investment doesn't go up in smoke? How do we further the progression of the VQ development? Will the sharing of blueprints, engine failures and successes, and other technical information on the boards help us or is that secret proprietary information that is too sacred to dissemenate?
#18
If the information is shared in a way that does not link it to the customer then I do not see how that could be harmful to the customer or the builder/customer relationship. This is done everyday in the medical community and obviously involves much more sensitive information.
#19
I don't understand how you can say this. You want people and shops to put out this information then you call it private and give all the shops something to hide behind. For a long time I have felt it was all about making money at the customers expense. Use them as a guinea pig they sign all kinds of releases so the shop isn't held accountablefor any mistakes. Then the famous sentence comes out when something goes wrong ( you have to pay to play ). I just love that one.
#20
I don't understand how you can say this. You want people and shops to put out this information then you call it private and give all the shops something to hide behind. For a long time I have felt it was all about making money at the customers expense. Use them as a guinea pig they sign all kinds of releases so the shop isn't held accountablefor any mistakes. Then the famous sentence comes out when something goes wrong ( you have to pay to play ). I just love that one.