Ferrari's Fire Two Pistons at a time...
09-16-2004, 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by Resolute
The Ferrari uses a V8 in the Modena and a V10 in the Enzo, which means there will always be 2 pistons on the compression stroke at the same time, on opposite banks. Hence, firing two pistons at the same time. The Z has a V6, so two pistons will not always be in the compression stroke. It's not a batch fire system. I can't think of a single engine around, let alone a High Performance engine, that would use a batch fire system on the ignition.
Ferraris have had DIS ignition for some time, the 360 V8, soon to be bumped to 4.3 for the new 430, will work this same way Orange Peel, with a single spark per cylinder, but one piston on either bank will always be in compression stroke, so two pistons will be firing at once. Make any sense?
The Ferrari uses a V8 in the Modena and a V10 in the Enzo, which means there will always be 2 pistons on the compression stroke at the same time, on opposite banks. Hence, firing two pistons at the same time. The Z has a V6, so two pistons will not always be in the compression stroke. It's not a batch fire system. I can't think of a single engine around, let alone a High Performance engine, that would use a batch fire system on the ignition.
Ferraris have had DIS ignition for some time, the 360 V8, soon to be bumped to 4.3 for the new 430, will work this same way Orange Peel, with a single spark per cylinder, but one piston on either bank will always be in compression stroke, so two pistons will be firing at once. Make any sense?
09-18-2004, 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by Orange Peel
Actually , come to think of it, the RSX type S (My former car) had what i was told was the equivalent to a half of a v8 honda indy car engine with the =same system. Thats how they have so much torque for 4 cyliners. The K20a and A2 were derived from a flat crank V8. That V8 was originally rumored to be in the next generation NSX and it suxz that its not. I also heard that they have scrapped the NSX for a 40-50 k Boxter competitor? It will sell a lot, and it is supposed to be really fast? I guess it'l have the TL v6 or a derivative of it. I'm sick of V6 i wan't a high revving v8. Especially one from honda. It'll be twice as reliable as the ferrari and it will be twice as cheap and twice asn practicle and awesom to drive. I want a high revving V8. or at least a high revving 350Z.
Actually , come to think of it, the RSX type S (My former car) had what i was told was the equivalent to a half of a v8 honda indy car engine with the =same system. Thats how they have so much torque for 4 cyliners. The K20a and A2 were derived from a flat crank V8. That V8 was originally rumored to be in the next generation NSX and it suxz that its not. I also heard that they have scrapped the NSX for a 40-50 k Boxter competitor? It will sell a lot, and it is supposed to be really fast? I guess it'l have the TL v6 or a derivative of it. I'm sick of V6 i wan't a high revving v8. Especially one from honda. It'll be twice as reliable as the ferrari and it will be twice as cheap and twice asn practicle and awesom to drive. I want a high revving V8. or at least a high revving 350Z.
Honda knows what they're doing. Everyone complained about how Honda went to McPherson front struts for the RSX but nobody seems to mind anymore. If you think the K20A is torquey, you'll probably think the 350Z is the fastest thing in the world. The Nissan QR25 is torquier than the K20 and at much fewer RPMs. I've driven an SE-R, 350Z and RSX-S before.
The first NSX was around 50k. The Boxster S costs about 50k. Many exotic cars are not sold in big numbers on purpose. Ferrari doesn't build as many Enzos as it can. It builds one or two less than anticipated demand so they're worth a lot more because the people who want one can't get one. In fact, someone in my town got an Enzo and sold it for $1.1 mil.
As for power, you could buy a dodge viper or corvette and upgrade them to have a lot more power than a Ferrari. Same goes for the NSX. Is it going to be fast? Around a track, it will be. Straight line? (which as we all know is most important) N.
The first NSX was what made exotic car companies realize that their cars have to be able to go into first year on the first cold start as well as start every day. The 360 Modena is reported to be reliable, fairly practical. But nobody buys Ferraris to commute. They buy it for status, prestige. The true enthusiasts buy them for the experience and heritage.
Originally posted by Orange Peel
I miss my old car's top end power band. I need help figuring out a cheap way to rev high, under four grand (parts at least)
I miss my old car's top end power band. I need help figuring out a cheap way to rev high, under four grand (parts at least)
Originally posted by Orange Peel
most probably rod bolts, and RZz heads and camshafts and valvetrain. Its the cheapest way to go for high revving( no pistons rods or crank), but its around 5 grand. I need hook ups.
most probably rod bolts, and RZz heads and camshafts and valvetrain. Its the cheapest way to go for high revving( no pistons rods or crank), but its around 5 grand. I need hook ups.
Last edited by AREITU; 09-18-2004 at 10:30 AM.
09-22-2004, 12:00 PM
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Very interesting... when I first saw the topic of this thread.... I was like... WTF?? I knew a guy who had an older V12 ferrari (like 40 years old) and it was not a flat-plane crank... and neither was the more recent 456M (according to specs I just looked up).
I studied the above illustrations, which appear to have come from http://www.e31.net/engines_e.html
looking at the bottom crank, which does look just like a a typical 4 cylinder, but seeing how wide the journal is where the connecting rod connects, it is obviously wide enough for two connecting rods, implying a V engine. Since it has "two up" and "two down" this means, that 4 pistons would be in the same place at the same time, which means, either all four are in the compression, or all four in the exhaust, or, the reality of two in the compression, and two in the exhaust... which does mean two fire at the same time. In both cases, either flat-plane of cross-plane, you still have the same number of cylinders explode per rotation, in the case of a V8, you have 4, so you have the same amount of air/fuel regardless of whether you do two at a time, or one at a time. but, there are other benefits i guess from the flat-plane, as descirbed on the above link, and here...
http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_s...ne/smooth4.htm
With regards to igntions that may dual fire, or whatever other terminlogy you want to use, I have seen two things... I have seen one that does a "baby" spark right after the primary, and I have seen ones that fire on the exhaust stroke. It is VERY common today for engines with distributorless ignitions to fire on the exhaust stroke, but I don't know that the Z does, I am quite certain my Maxima does NOT, which also direct ignition (6 coils). I have seen in a lot of distributorless ignitions only "half" the number of coils as cylinders, in this case, there are two spark plug wires from each coil, each to a cylinder that is 180º out of phase from the other.
someone said something about changing an engine to a flat plane crank... this would not only involve a new crank, and probably ignition system, but new cams would have to be used that were designed for a flat-plane crank.
I studied the above illustrations, which appear to have come from http://www.e31.net/engines_e.html
looking at the bottom crank, which does look just like a a typical 4 cylinder, but seeing how wide the journal is where the connecting rod connects, it is obviously wide enough for two connecting rods, implying a V engine. Since it has "two up" and "two down" this means, that 4 pistons would be in the same place at the same time, which means, either all four are in the compression, or all four in the exhaust, or, the reality of two in the compression, and two in the exhaust... which does mean two fire at the same time. In both cases, either flat-plane of cross-plane, you still have the same number of cylinders explode per rotation, in the case of a V8, you have 4, so you have the same amount of air/fuel regardless of whether you do two at a time, or one at a time. but, there are other benefits i guess from the flat-plane, as descirbed on the above link, and here...
http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_s...ne/smooth4.htm
With regards to igntions that may dual fire, or whatever other terminlogy you want to use, I have seen two things... I have seen one that does a "baby" spark right after the primary, and I have seen ones that fire on the exhaust stroke. It is VERY common today for engines with distributorless ignitions to fire on the exhaust stroke, but I don't know that the Z does, I am quite certain my Maxima does NOT, which also direct ignition (6 coils). I have seen in a lot of distributorless ignitions only "half" the number of coils as cylinders, in this case, there are two spark plug wires from each coil, each to a cylinder that is 180º out of phase from the other.
someone said something about changing an engine to a flat plane crank... this would not only involve a new crank, and probably ignition system, but new cams would have to be used that were designed for a flat-plane crank.
09-22-2004, 03:09 PM
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sorry typo, i knew that!! Of course V12. You can't even have a flat crank on a v10. Sorry.
For some reason carrera gt keeps popping into my head (my current title holder for best car in my opinion, its the car for the people who ask me "if you would have any car in the world...")
I have had my Z for a little bit over a year now andI'm sorry if I've been a little critical on it on this thread but i love it. I lAdmire it so much that i just wonder of ways to imporve on it.
I Love the picture by the way of the cranks, thats awsome. I still have to visualize it though.
And my last car had a roller indy car valvetrain, and yes the sr20 det has more torque but it is turbo, and therefore does noit count.One would have to lower the 2004 ITR engine compression and turbo to make a fair comparison.
I would like to thank all those that are in this forum for giving me so much intel on Flat cranks. I appreciate it a great deal.
Thank you!!
For some reason carrera gt keeps popping into my head (my current title holder for best car in my opinion, its the car for the people who ask me "if you would have any car in the world...")
I have had my Z for a little bit over a year now andI'm sorry if I've been a little critical on it on this thread but i love it. I lAdmire it so much that i just wonder of ways to imporve on it.
I Love the picture by the way of the cranks, thats awsome. I still have to visualize it though.
And my last car had a roller indy car valvetrain, and yes the sr20 det has more torque but it is turbo, and therefore does noit count.One would have to lower the 2004 ITR engine compression and turbo to make a fair comparison.
I would like to thank all those that are in this forum for giving me so much intel on Flat cranks. I appreciate it a great deal.
Thank you!!
09-22-2004, 03:15 PM
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sorry, umm wrong again, i didn't read it right. The DC5 ITR engine kicks the but of most naturally aspirated factory engines in all departements. Look it up. But you are entitled to you're opinion. Maybe i'll see it you're way someday but for now Honda is the Four cylinder king. (Rumors of Turbo TSX ?) But there is always Silvia sr20 blacktops from the s15. I wouldn't mind one of those.
But i like Nissan I just hope that they hone their craft a little bit more and make the z shine. Every car has an Achillies heel, for honda's its the macpherson. For z its the high end torque. They all work, and at the end its all driver. peace out.
You can raise the rpm limit but i still won't want to shift there because the torque drops off at 5 grand.
But i like Nissan I just hope that they hone their craft a little bit more and make the z shine. Every car has an Achillies heel, for honda's its the macpherson. For z its the high end torque. They all work, and at the end its all driver. peace out.
You can raise the rpm limit but i still won't want to shift there because the torque drops off at 5 grand.
09-22-2004, 06:46 PM
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I have to comment on this whole Honda is the king of 4 cyl engines. It all depends on what you are trying to do with the car. The DC5 ITR engine makes how much tq? Like 140 ft/lbs or something? The QR25 in my SE-R makes 180 ft/lbs in stock form, and just adding a header bumps it up another 10 or so. Show me any honda 4 cyl that makes anywhere near that amount of tq NA... HP isn't everything, tq is what gets you going making a car much easier to drive while you aren't racing, plus you don't have to rape it all the time for it to move.
Last edited by dragonacc2; 09-22-2004 at 06:49 PM.
09-23-2004, 01:59 AM
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Originally posted by Orange Peel
sorry, umm wrong again, i didn't read it right. The DC5 ITR engine kicks the but of most naturally aspirated factory engines in all departements. Look it up. But you are entitled to you're opinion. Maybe i'll see it you're way someday but for now Honda is the Four cylinder king. (Rumors of Turbo TSX ?) But there is always Silvia sr20 blacktops from the s15. I wouldn't mind one of those.
But i like Nissan I just hope that they hone their craft a little bit more and make the z shine. Every car has an Achillies heel, for honda's its the macpherson. For z its the high end torque. They all work, and at the end its all driver. peace out.
You can raise the rpm limit but i still won't want to shift there because the torque drops off at 5 grand.
sorry, umm wrong again, i didn't read it right. The DC5 ITR engine kicks the but of most naturally aspirated factory engines in all departements. Look it up. But you are entitled to you're opinion. Maybe i'll see it you're way someday but for now Honda is the Four cylinder king. (Rumors of Turbo TSX ?) But there is always Silvia sr20 blacktops from the s15. I wouldn't mind one of those.
But i like Nissan I just hope that they hone their craft a little bit more and make the z shine. Every car has an Achillies heel, for honda's its the macpherson. For z its the high end torque. They all work, and at the end its all driver. peace out.
You can raise the rpm limit but i still won't want to shift there because the torque drops off at 5 grand.
You started this thread and now you're sending it off topic. And no, the RSX's motor is not really related to an indy car motor in any way. In fact, IIRC, I don't even think it has rollers. Are you sure you've ridden in a 350Z? Why are you so worried about top end torque? Why not just rig it to fire every spark plug at the same time and mke the engine rev to 13,000rpm? Maybe then it'll be the perfect car, yeah?
Honda uses the McPherson in some of the FWD cars, not all of them. Nobody seems to be complaining about it anymore. Also, please enlighten us as to why Porsche and BMW, two companies that produce some are considering handling gods, use McPherson struts (Interesting point--the Carrera GT requires more torque for it's lugnuts than a Civic makes. Literally). My 2003 Accord has front double wishbones.
Oh, and...
Last edited by AREITU; 09-23-2004 at 02:14 AM.
09-23-2004, 05:12 AM
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This has got to be the funniest thread I've ever read. RSX motor derived from IRL motors, V10 Ferrari Enzos and a guy missing the torque his RSX had when he is driving a 350z. Wow.
09-23-2004, 08:54 AM
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oh man, I wish I had seen this sooner, the dc5 R is nothing special, the s2k has a far superior motor, neither of which are IRL motor derivatives...
If you think the rsx has torque I refuse to believe your driving a 350z. the 350z has almost double the torque, and you can feel it when you drive, I know this ive had both cars.
Considering how well rsx turn I wouldn't call the macphereson an achiles heel, more of a magazine racers complaint.
As for high end torque, thats how cars are generally, you either have low end torque or high end torque, you go for the car you prefer.
Why didn't you buy an s2k?
Oh yeah, about honing their craft, nissans been making great sports cars for 40 years many have been engineering feets. Honda's accomplishment seem more alloted to emissions and such.
If you think the rsx has torque I refuse to believe your driving a 350z. the 350z has almost double the torque, and you can feel it when you drive, I know this ive had both cars.
Considering how well rsx turn I wouldn't call the macphereson an achiles heel, more of a magazine racers complaint.
As for high end torque, thats how cars are generally, you either have low end torque or high end torque, you go for the car you prefer.
Why didn't you buy an s2k?
Oh yeah, about honing their craft, nissans been making great sports cars for 40 years many have been engineering feets. Honda's accomplishment seem more alloted to emissions and such.
09-23-2004, 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by Nealoc187
This has got to be the funniest thread I've ever read. RSX motor derived from IRL motors, V10 Ferrari Enzos and a guy missing the torque his RSX had when he is driving a 350z. Wow.
This has got to be the funniest thread I've ever read. RSX motor derived from IRL motors, V10 Ferrari Enzos and a guy missing the torque his RSX had when he is driving a 350z. Wow.
09-23-2004, 05:18 PM
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as far as 4 cyl engines .... im not really a honda fan so i dont know much about honda engines ... but i can think of 3 exceptional 4 cyl engines ...
1. toyota 3s-gte
2. nissan sr-20
3. mitusbishi 4g-63
all of which can make fairly large ammounts of power
1. toyota 3s-gte
2. nissan sr-20
3. mitusbishi 4g-63
all of which can make fairly large ammounts of power
09-23-2004, 05:41 PM
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I concur with this being one funny **** thread 
Though I hate being Captain Obvious, a few important points:
1. there is nothing, and I mean nothing similar about ANY Honda production motor and anything in the IRL, F1 or anything else....well, except that they are both built by Honda.
2. Yes the ITR has a very nice NA motor. So does the S2k (the 00 model in particular is one of the nicest made, period). There are lots of nice 4 cyl motors...the new Celica one being another top choice (does wonders in an Elise for example).
3. If you want high end torque, get a bigger motor....perhaps a used Vette is in your future?
Though I hate being Captain Obvious, a few important points:
1. there is nothing, and I mean nothing similar about ANY Honda production motor and anything in the IRL, F1 or anything else....well, except that they are both built by Honda.
2. Yes the ITR has a very nice NA motor. So does the S2k (the 00 model in particular is one of the nicest made, period). There are lots of nice 4 cyl motors...the new Celica one being another top choice (does wonders in an Elise for example).
3. If you want high end torque, get a bigger motor....perhaps a used Vette is in your future?
09-23-2004, 08:14 PM
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Originally posted by DRFT_Z33
as far as 4 cyl engines .... im not really a honda fan so i dont know much about honda engines ... but i can think of 3 exceptional 4 cyl engines ...
1. toyota 3s-gte
2. nissan sr-20
3. mitusbishi 4g-63
all of which can make fairly large ammounts of power
as far as 4 cyl engines .... im not really a honda fan so i dont know much about honda engines ... but i can think of 3 exceptional 4 cyl engines ...
1. toyota 3s-gte
2. nissan sr-20
3. mitusbishi 4g-63
all of which can make fairly large ammounts of power
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