If you had a buy a return fuel system all over again, would you buy another AAM or go with the new CJM system?

 

I have the AAM but I dont think there is that much difference from one or the other...Is there ?

 

yes. many differences. hence the additional cost.

 

Main difference is Charles system includes a 4ANS feed line from the tank...nice touch.

I dont have any reservations having used the AAM kit for 8000miles. I am sure Charles system is outstanding as well.

 

cjm kit comes with a lot more stuff/features, costs a bit more, and flows a tad more... the lines are teflon core rather then rubber, and there are several other small touches to add up to the price. undercar hardpipe is replaced with a -8an hardpipe, rails are anodized rather then bare, stainless hardware is included and doesnt require modification of the plenum to fit with physically larger injectors. lines are rubber coated to prevent abrasion. overall flow is substantially increased enough that a -4 return line couldnt keep up anymore. There are no exposed hose ends using hose clamps, every connection in the entire system is AN, starting with our custom CNC'd fitting that snaps on to the pump housing like stock. not a drop of fuel flows thru anything stock expect the plastic fuel pump housing. we are the only ones who manufacture a return bypass correction for the G35 seden pump housing. Every hose end is crimped on durable steel fittings that are scratch resistent.

to be honest, the only way they are comparable is that they are both "fuel systems"... other than that they are in 2 different leagues for 2 different types of customers.

I used the AAM kit for a while myself... its not a bad kit at all. Like I said, 2 different systems for 2 different types of people. If your building on a budget, then by all means the AAM kit will DEFINATLY meet your needs. If you have the extra $275 or whatever the difference is, ill gladly prove to you that you will not regret it. Many shops have started using my system or several components of it, and now manufacturers have been expressing interest in it. HKS just purchased the complete system a few weeks ago for their Z, which is kinda fun to brag about.

But hey, AAM system works, gets the job done, and is all most of you will ever need. Those of you who dont even work on your car, do the install, or even know what half the things are under your hood, will never know the difference.

 

I have 0 problems with my AAM sestem

 

My AAM is fine, but if I had it to do all over again, or I would have had the choice when I built the car, I would have installed the CJM. Worth the extra money I am sure.

 

First we would like to say that we respect Charles very much and believe that he has an exceptional amount of knowledge when it comes to the 350Z and G35. There are a few points that need to be clarified concerning our fuel system and some of the technical issues and decisions that we made when designing the system.

Teflon is complete overkill for this type of system. Here is a technical comparison of the two types of line.

Teflon -06AN
Temp (MAX) 500deg F
Bend Radius 8" Across
Pressure 5000PSI
$/ft $5.02
Expected Life 20-25yrs


Synthetic CPE -06AN
Temp (MAX) 350deg F
Bend Radius 5" Across
Pressure 1500PSI
$/ft $8.83
Expected Life 10-15yrs

Temperature is obviously not an issue as 500 deg temps will not be seen in these areas. The bend radius is determined by bending the line with two sides parallel to each other before the line begins to collapse on itself. The distance between the two parallel sections would be the bend radius. Teflon is also a “hard” type line and can potentially be crimped and deformed. Synthetic CPE will almost always regain its shape even if subjected to the most extreme contortions. The pressure limit of Teflon is higher but a fuel system will see no higher then 100psi so we are well within the guidelines. An interesting note is the cost per foot.

The stainless steel braiding was chosen due too its abrasion resistance and high performance under extreme conditions, not the other way around. The lines should move very little and if the case arises that they are rubbing the lines can always be secured.

We choose the reusable red and blue style fitting for a couple of reasons. We wanted to make sure that they were available to use again if a line became damaged or if it needed to be lengthened or shortened in a custom or specialized situation. It is impossible for a shop to do this with the crimp type fittings and very hard to do by hand with Teflon core line and a reusable fitting. The color coding also help to ensure ease of connectivity. Aluminum and stainless steel do not rust. All lines are professionally assembled and tested to 700psi before they leave the factory. Goodridge one of the world’s foremost leaders in fluid transfer technology builds all of our line kits. Goodridge has been in business for over 35 years and we have drawn much of our line design from their technical and engineering expertise. They happen to build all of the lines and fittings for ZEX one of the largest nitrous component manufactures in the country. As for injector clearance we have yet to run into this issue. There are not many people capable of even using 1000CC injectors.

The decision was made to not replace the feed line because ultimately it is not needed for the horsepower levels that are attainable with the Walboro 255. It is an extra unnecessary expense that serves no purpose. The fact is the Walboro is tapped out and needs to be replaced in any event at over 450rwhp based on its flow chart (this is our opinion, some on the board have been able to achieve higher rwhp numbers with larger injectors and very high duty cycles). When the pump is replaced it is then and only then appropriate to replace the feed line. This is a good opportunity for me to let you know that a complete drop-in fuel pump upgrade will be available from us in the next few weeks. We have tested a system capable of over 700hp worth of fuel flow with a -08AN line feeding the rails and still have yet to find a restriction casued by the return line. In fact the interior orifice of the regulators used to control fuel pressure is much smaller then -04AN line so it is impossible to assume that the line is the restriction in flow.

We felt that the added expense was not needed until the actual pump system was available that could take advantage of the larger feed line. We understand that not every build is the same. Not everyone has the same horsepower goal. Our purpose is to serve the needs of our customers. To include an unnecessary line would be going against the spirit of serving those needs.

Bragging rights are great. Perfromance Motorsport uses our rails on their drag car...so my 8 sec 176MPH Twin Turbo 1400HP 350Z beats your 400HP Supercharged Manufactures Test Mule.

On a personal note:

“But hey, AAM system works, gets the job done, and is all most of you will ever need. Those of you who dont even work on your car, do the install, or even know what half the things are under your hood, will never know the difference.”

I don’t own a 350Z or G35 and I find that comment immensely offensive. I doubt many people will side with you if that is your perspective. I mean if I did not work on my own cars does that mean I’m incompetent or “half” a car guy.

 

Rock on Dave!!

Fred..

 

if i were a sponsor i would argue most your defensive points that are pretty null

sometime after buying rails from you, PM has bought rails from me... :shrug: your rails are on a lot of cars, because for a long time they were the only ones available... first doesnt mean best

I mean if I did not work on my own cars does that mean I’m incompetent or “half” a car guy.

your reading a little too deep into that... it means exactly what I said, they would never know the difference. When both are goign to function as required... if they hadnt installed the part, cant see the part once its installed, and didnt have to install it to see how well it fits... how do you expect they WOULD know the difference?

As for your fuel pump comments... walbro 255 in my car, duty cycle FAR FAR below 80%, and 576rwhp. 450rwhp is no where near the limit of a walbro.

Bend Radius, well when the kit fits so nicely, you dont have to worry about the bend radius.

no need to jock goodrich, they are the manufacturer of pretty much all the parts in my kit also. anyone can call goodrich and tell them they need a line of specific length with specific fittings on the end.

you say stainless steel braiding is for abrasion resistence... which is true, but at the sacrafice of abrasion with anything it contacts. the teflon lines i use are not only stainless braided, but then rubber coated, best of both worlds.

Restriction in flow doesnt only depend on orifice size, but it depends on duration of the restriction. Try running a line that matches the size of your regulators output all the way back to the tank and let me know how that works out If your arguement was at all valid on this point... then why are your fuel rails so big on the inside? When the stock pump output fitting your kit uses has a 3/16" size... whats the point of those large rails?

but ill agree with the main point i got from your post... my system is a bit overkill for most, which is something i was saying before. Your system will get the job done 100%... my kit is just for those want that extra step in features and quality beyond what is required. Hence the extra cost... but definatly not required.

 

Yes they did for a customer's car. You were the first to purchase our rails after HKS USA asked you to call us on how to get started tuning your F-Con Pro and we told you about our rails that were in development. You were literally the second person to own our rails (Mike's car got the first set). So when you come up with your own innovative product then please by all means share it with us, allow us to reverse engineer it, then we'll come out with all our "so-called" improvements. Which in the case of your system is nothing more then a bunch of smoke and mirrors. You even lay it out for us here:

"but ill agree with the main point i got from your post... my system is...overkill...which is something i was saying before. Your system will get the job done 100%... my kit is...beyond what is required... but definatly not required."

Are we talking at 13.5volts or at a higher voltage?

Personal preference I guess.

Common sense would say that they are there for upgradeability and they are the most expensive component in the system. This requires that they be overbuilt because it is not something that is easily replaced or changed size wise.

"overall flow is substantially increased enough that a -4 return line couldnt keep up anymore."

The above was from your original post. I was just clarifying that a -04 is more then adequite and how we have tested a -08 feed line with a -04 return line and found no flow issues. The supply system was also of a much higher flowing design then a Walbro 255 which according to your calculations should make it a huge restriction and issue.

 

I'd like to say thanks to Charles and Dave for both taking the time to post so thoroughly; I've really learned alot about both kits after reading your responses.

 

I think that it is safe to say that both compaines make quality products and at some point in the next year, I will require either/both of your services. Personally I understand why each is defending their products but, some how it kinda feels like petty bickering. Post the specs and let each product speak for itself. My 2¢.

 

HKS never reffered me to you for FCON Support. I learned the FCON entirely by myself with Jon K's assistence. I might have asked you a few things about it if you had previous experience... but I guess I didnt get any info worth remember, cause i dont recall speaking FCON with ya... I didnt know you even used them :shrug:


At the time you guys were the only available fuel system upgrades. At the time of purchasing your parts I had no intentions of making my own fuel system. After running it for a year and making great HP on it (it really does work!), I found several things I wanted to change about it when I did my engine build. By the time that all came together, I ended up with a different enough system to sell it. I could sell it for the same price you sell yours for (especially now since I am getting rid of my service shop = less overhead, but I dont... its really a different market. I have always said in any conversation about it that your system will work as intended and there is nothing WRONG with it (cept back before you guys did the return bypass).

I am a certain way with my car, and I want certain things just right with my car. I took your system (that was by no means innovative, and neither is mine... its only a fuel system!!! big deal!) and made a list of improvements that I have never actually posted only out of respect for you ... I am also relying on my customers to do my real pushing, I just give my products a little boost here and there... but I never push them... even in many threads where people ask about fuel systems I say either yours or mine (will suffice)... the only reason I got personal on this one is cause for the first time ever someone brought up a comparison!


How exactly is it a bunch of smoke and mirrors IF I even laid it out for you? haha. ... and what exactly made you decide to argue me defending some of your points! hah.



Never tested voltage, but its all stock. Around 13.5 with alternator running.

Agreed... some people would prefer the more bling look of your exposed stainless braiding... to each their own!



I understand Dave, and I was just busting your *****... I was using it as an exageration to my point, where just because there is a small momentary restriction, that doesnt mean its an equal bottleneck to the same size restriction with greater duration.


Well in defense to my original comment, I would like to remind you that I did once have your entire kit on my car. After adding my return bypass mod, all my feed side upgrades, my rails (which doesnt matter in this point cause your rails actually have a slightly larger ID anyway), and my rail return hoses.... even after modifying the swirl jet I had uncontrollably high fuel pressure (55psi min versus the 38 I run at idle under vacuum), and the only thing that finally took care of this was a -6 return line. My customer running my first prototype fuel system kit (which had a -4 on it) had the same problem, we had to go to a -6... obviously what we have both done is slightly different enough where I have had to go to a -6 return to get low pressure at idle, and you havent had to... if you havent had a problem with it, thats cool... but I just wanted to make sure you know I wasnt making it up or ********ting!

-Charles

 

its what makes the world go 'round!

 

I return the respect... You guys have probably serviced many more of them then I have! Hey, are you guys hiring? I might be looking for a job!

 

AAM and CJ motorsports...you guys both rock...you guys need to give each other a e-hug

charles...saw in your sig you quit smoking...congradulations!