~Turbo Systems~
02-07-2006, 01:26 PM
#121
Originally Posted by chimmike
okay, so you don't like v-band clamps. That's fine though they're some of the simplest and most reliable ways of sealing exhaust without using welds or bolt on/gasket joints. The way the piping runs? well, last I saw, there isn't a TON of space in the engine bay......especially with the placement they chose. And they chose that placement for a reason....i don't know what it is, ask 'em!
brackets on the fmic: Haven't had any reports of breakage yet, have we? don't think so.....so what's the fuss?
welds showing on piping--------that's not a quality issue, that's a cosmetics issue. Ever try grinding down welded piping like that? Very labor intensive. Labor=time=costs extra. I think the black chroming more than makes up for some very nice looking welds (believe it or not, nice welds=show points).
oil return line: Okay, I can understand that gripe, and I'll give it to you. But then again, get the price of the TN kit and a JWT spacer is still less expensive than the other brand.
Reflash: It's been proven reliable and safe. It doesn't have to be tuneable as long as it's safe, does it? Also it's best for people who want to install it in their garage and not have to sweat bullets on the way to x shop to get tuned, but i'll give you this one I guess. I've dealt with the tuning thing before, lots of times, and I just like this setup due to it's simplicity.
boost control beyond external gate. Well, with all my internal gate experience, what more would you want? External gates are more consistent, always have been. Would you prever a super low boost spring and a built in increase in the management offering? I prefer the external gate, where it's set at a reasonable, but not dangerous setting, and the spring is interchangeable to whatever base setting you like. I don't see anything wrong with an external wastegate as boost control.
If you think stage 1.5 will be more respectable, why? There won't be any changes to the welds in the piping, etc. It just adds unichip, injectors, and some other stuff. I'd say, take a look at the pics of Taurran's car. The quality is far above "adequate".
plus their customer service is excellent, as is the warranty.
Though, I figure you're an APS owner, which is fine. I just can't justify paying APS ST money for ST when I can (yes, I can) get a greddy setup minus EMS for the same money. Just wouldn't make sense to me to spend a few hundred more and get the Greddy setup....if I were going for incredible power possibilities.
brackets on the fmic: Haven't had any reports of breakage yet, have we? don't think so.....so what's the fuss?
welds showing on piping--------that's not a quality issue, that's a cosmetics issue. Ever try grinding down welded piping like that? Very labor intensive. Labor=time=costs extra. I think the black chroming more than makes up for some very nice looking welds (believe it or not, nice welds=show points).
oil return line: Okay, I can understand that gripe, and I'll give it to you. But then again, get the price of the TN kit and a JWT spacer is still less expensive than the other brand.
Reflash: It's been proven reliable and safe. It doesn't have to be tuneable as long as it's safe, does it? Also it's best for people who want to install it in their garage and not have to sweat bullets on the way to x shop to get tuned, but i'll give you this one I guess. I've dealt with the tuning thing before, lots of times, and I just like this setup due to it's simplicity.
boost control beyond external gate. Well, with all my internal gate experience, what more would you want? External gates are more consistent, always have been. Would you prever a super low boost spring and a built in increase in the management offering? I prefer the external gate, where it's set at a reasonable, but not dangerous setting, and the spring is interchangeable to whatever base setting you like. I don't see anything wrong with an external wastegate as boost control.
If you think stage 1.5 will be more respectable, why? There won't be any changes to the welds in the piping, etc. It just adds unichip, injectors, and some other stuff. I'd say, take a look at the pics of Taurran's car. The quality is far above "adequate".
plus their customer service is excellent, as is the warranty.
Though, I figure you're an APS owner, which is fine. I just can't justify paying APS ST money for ST when I can (yes, I can) get a greddy setup minus EMS for the same money. Just wouldn't make sense to me to spend a few hundred more and get the Greddy setup....if I were going for incredible power possibilities.
I totally disagree that the reflash has been proven reliable and safe. It is based off a maf sensor that can easily be maxed out with a simple inclusion of an exhaust setup. it is not a proper way to run a FI setup. The exclusion of some sort of boost control is something to take into consideration. Yes, you can run spring pressure, but we get back to the fact that we are runnig a maf based EMS that is pumped out in cookie cutter fashion that will not work for every car. If you somehow are are running a lb or two more than you would like, you must taken it upon yourself to install a boost controller and adjust accordingly. IMO the EMS MUST be seing and have the capability to adjust boost. Simplicity is one thing, but not allowing for a custom tune is another. another FYI, the local to me that ran a TN kit blew his car up in about a month after getting his kit. His explaination for it - I ran the car too hard - LOL
The routing of the exhaust piping is related to the placement of the turbo. I don't like the placement of the turbo, nor do I like the fact that the exhaust is routed as it is. The dump pipe is a 3" setup. The APS is a 3.5" setup. I know you have more HP potential on a TN setup, but in taking advantage of it, you need to spend nearly the same dough you would on a TT setup that IMO is much more complete, refined, and capable than the TN setup.
I feel the 1.5 staged kit is a more respectable setup because it addresses most of the areas that were lacking on their original setup.
These are my thoughts on the kit. Go ahead and run the TN kit on your car if you feel it is the best setup for you. Based on numorous things I would not consider it for my car.
I have my reasons why I personally wouldn't choose a greddy kit as well. The major two being the turbos only having oil lines used to cool and lubricate the turbos vs a water cooled and oil lubed setup on the APS and JWT setups. Also, the greddy doesn't allow use of ones front impact beam due to the size of the FMIC - though rumor has it, this is changing. The 3rd party compenents needed to complete the setup also plays a role in deciding on a kit. in an apples to apples comparison, the Greddy TT kit and APS TT are nearly the same price. Now you are left with solely oil cooled turbos and no use of your front impact beam.
We can go onto compare the JWT using an FMU/FPR to sort of overclock the stock injectors and calling this a proper fuel system. Or using turbos that spool quickly, but have relatively limited potential due to their size. You can also address the fit and finish of their kit with back yard mechanic style windshield washer resevoir replacment and the oil pan spacer used rather than a fuel oil pan replacement. now we can talk about the merely adequate split second EMS that is used that lacks boost control. Then to top it off, you have the medusa style piping setup that leaves one to have to cut up the fan shrowds if one is to run a larger radiator.
All I need to find is one area on a kit that is lacking that is met by another, in this case APS, to look passed that kit. I find it very ironic that the TN crowd bashed APS' use of the unichip as an EMS and now TN seems to have incorported that into stage 1.5 setup.
Last edited by Zivman; 02-07-2006 at 01:29 PM.
02-07-2006, 01:31 PM
#122
The whole customer service thing is a bit overexagerated. As long as one buys an aps setup from an aps dealer, there are no issues. I had a major part replaced on my setup in a matter of 24 hrs. This whole APS is in Australia thing and it will take weeks to get a part is nothing more the half truths. In some cases, yes it will take time to get a part if none are here in the US, but this is rarely the case. Shops like GRD and Japtrix usually can source a piece very quickly if they do not have one instock.
02-07-2006, 01:34 PM
#123
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I just fail to see how ANY out of the box setup needs any kind of boost control.
these kits were made with the average joe in mind. The average joe has no business controlling boost, therefore why give average joe the ability to blow his engine?
As for using the MAF.....it's far more precise than relying on a MAP sensor to control air/fuels. Besides the fact that the MAF isn't the only thing controlling air/fuel, it's very calculated between the MAF and the oxygen sensor to provide whatever prime afr is set in the ecu, while using the multiple maps of the ECU, instead of one general overriding map that needs to be reprogrammed with each boost adjustment.
glad you're happy with your purchase though.
these kits were made with the average joe in mind. The average joe has no business controlling boost, therefore why give average joe the ability to blow his engine?
As for using the MAF.....it's far more precise than relying on a MAP sensor to control air/fuels. Besides the fact that the MAF isn't the only thing controlling air/fuel, it's very calculated between the MAF and the oxygen sensor to provide whatever prime afr is set in the ecu, while using the multiple maps of the ECU, instead of one general overriding map that needs to be reprogrammed with each boost adjustment.
glad you're happy with your purchase though.
02-07-2006, 01:48 PM
#124
Originally Posted by chimmike
I just fail to see how ANY out of the box setup needs any kind of boost control.
these kits were made with the average joe in mind. The average joe has no business controlling boost, therefore why give average joe the ability to blow his engine?
I am not saying Joe Blow needs to be ajusting boost. But lets say, Joe blow wants to throw a nice 3"+ exhaust on his car, now what? no boost control, no EMS. what if he finds out he is boosting too high or is leaning out or god for bid detonating like I have read on these forums PLENTY of times. Into his pocket he reaches to pay for a new EMS, boost controller, and tune that should have been part of the kit and initial install - and that is the best case scenario. The detonation could have bent a rod and he now needs a rebuild.
As for using the MAF.....it's far more precise than relying on a MAP sensor to control air/fuels. Besides the fact that the MAF isn't the only thing controlling air/fuel, it's very calculated between the MAF and the oxygen sensor to provide whatever prime afr is set in the ecu, while using the multiple maps of the ECU, instead of one general overriding map that needs to be reprogrammed with each boost adjustment.
if you max out the maf you are SOL. it isn't very difficult to max it out and from the research I did, anything beyond 6-7 lbs is about there. When you speak of a "generic" map, you should be refering to the TN reflash. That is what you are getting, a generic map. It is not specifically tuned for your car. If you want to run a Maf based setup, you should do what the 300Z cars, the JWT TT, and other cars like the Mazdaspeed protege did and move the maf sensor before the turbo. This will allow you more room to play as the maf won't be as inclined to max out as quickly if the are is being sucked past rather than blown past it.
glad you're happy with your purchase though.
these kits were made with the average joe in mind. The average joe has no business controlling boost, therefore why give average joe the ability to blow his engine?
I am not saying Joe Blow needs to be ajusting boost. But lets say, Joe blow wants to throw a nice 3"+ exhaust on his car, now what? no boost control, no EMS. what if he finds out he is boosting too high or is leaning out or god for bid detonating like I have read on these forums PLENTY of times. Into his pocket he reaches to pay for a new EMS, boost controller, and tune that should have been part of the kit and initial install - and that is the best case scenario. The detonation could have bent a rod and he now needs a rebuild.
As for using the MAF.....it's far more precise than relying on a MAP sensor to control air/fuels. Besides the fact that the MAF isn't the only thing controlling air/fuel, it's very calculated between the MAF and the oxygen sensor to provide whatever prime afr is set in the ecu, while using the multiple maps of the ECU, instead of one general overriding map that needs to be reprogrammed with each boost adjustment.
if you max out the maf you are SOL. it isn't very difficult to max it out and from the research I did, anything beyond 6-7 lbs is about there. When you speak of a "generic" map, you should be refering to the TN reflash. That is what you are getting, a generic map. It is not specifically tuned for your car. If you want to run a Maf based setup, you should do what the 300Z cars, the JWT TT, and other cars like the Mazdaspeed protege did and move the maf sensor before the turbo. This will allow you more room to play as the maf won't be as inclined to max out as quickly if the are is being sucked past rather than blown past it.
glad you're happy with your purchase though.
I am just curious, what FI setup do you run on your car? How many turbo installs have you been part of on a Z? How many kits have you had the opportunity to drive? Where are you getting your knowledge base from?
Last edited by Zivman; 02-07-2006 at 01:51 PM.
02-07-2006, 03:19 PM
#125
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I'll be running the TN setup.
I've owned two previous turbo cars, and both kits I pretty much kitbashed myself because nothing was available in terms of aftermarket.
As for the Z I've studied the TN kit enough........I've had firsthand opinions from the likes of Mike Kojima, Clark Steppler at JWT (not about the TN kit but about the VQ and boost in general), along with Johnny **** of TN whom I met in person at the PRI show in Orlando (which, in case you didn't know, isn't open to the public)
I've had my grubby hands on a 2003 Z FSM since mid 2004, long before I bought the Z I currently own.
Oh, and since when does the stock MAF max out at 8psi? The TN kit runs a blow-thru setup and guys like Taurran are running 8+psi with an almost perfect 11.8:1 AFR on the TN reflash. And he's running exhaust.....and a plenum spacer, just like I'll be running. Wouldn't that theoretically cause incredible problems since you're saying it's maxed out? It isn't.
Wow....there are those big bad mods again. And the overboost issue...is solved. So that's a moot point now basically.
if I wanted a specific map from the likes of emanage or EU, I could do that all myself, as I've done it before with a trusty wideband and datalogging. However, after much research and time I've decided it's not necessary with the TN reflash. That's another big reason I'm going with this kit. It's probably going to be the simplest install I've ever done. Car will be in the garage on stands sitting comfortably and I've got every last part I'll conceivably need.
I've owned two previous turbo cars, and both kits I pretty much kitbashed myself because nothing was available in terms of aftermarket.
As for the Z I've studied the TN kit enough........I've had firsthand opinions from the likes of Mike Kojima, Clark Steppler at JWT (not about the TN kit but about the VQ and boost in general), along with Johnny **** of TN whom I met in person at the PRI show in Orlando (which, in case you didn't know, isn't open to the public)
I've had my grubby hands on a 2003 Z FSM since mid 2004, long before I bought the Z I currently own.
Oh, and since when does the stock MAF max out at 8psi? The TN kit runs a blow-thru setup and guys like Taurran are running 8+psi with an almost perfect 11.8:1 AFR on the TN reflash. And he's running exhaust.....and a plenum spacer, just like I'll be running. Wouldn't that theoretically cause incredible problems since you're saying it's maxed out? It isn't.
Wow....there are those big bad mods again. And the overboost issue...is solved. So that's a moot point now basically.
if I wanted a specific map from the likes of emanage or EU, I could do that all myself, as I've done it before with a trusty wideband and datalogging. However, after much research and time I've decided it's not necessary with the TN reflash. That's another big reason I'm going with this kit. It's probably going to be the simplest install I've ever done. Car will be in the garage on stands sitting comfortably and I've got every last part I'll conceivably need.
Last edited by chimmike; 02-07-2006 at 03:26 PM.
02-07-2006, 07:39 PM
#126
Originally Posted by chimmike
I'll be running the TN setup.
I've owned two previous turbo cars, and both kits I pretty much kitbashed myself because nothing was available in terms of aftermarket.
As for the Z I've studied the TN kit enough........I've had firsthand opinions from the likes of Mike Kojima, Clark Steppler at JWT (not about the TN kit but about the VQ and boost in general), along with Johnny **** of TN whom I met in person at the PRI show in Orlando (which, in case you didn't know, isn't open to the public)
I've had my grubby hands on a 2003 Z FSM since mid 2004, long before I bought the Z I currently own.
Oh, and since when does the stock MAF max out at 8psi? The TN kit runs a blow-thru setup and guys like Taurran are running 8+psi with an almost perfect 11.8:1 AFR on the TN reflash. And he's running exhaust.....and a plenum spacer, just like I'll be running. Wouldn't that theoretically cause incredible problems since you're saying it's maxed out? It isn't.
Wow....there are those big bad mods again. And the overboost issue...is solved. So that's a moot point now basically.
if I wanted a specific map from the likes of emanage or EU, I could do that all myself, as I've done it before with a trusty wideband and datalogging. However, after much research and time I've decided it's not necessary with the TN reflash. That's another big reason I'm going with this kit. It's probably going to be the simplest install I've ever done. Car will be in the garage on stands sitting comfortably and I've got every last part I'll conceivably need.
I've owned two previous turbo cars, and both kits I pretty much kitbashed myself because nothing was available in terms of aftermarket.
As for the Z I've studied the TN kit enough........I've had firsthand opinions from the likes of Mike Kojima, Clark Steppler at JWT (not about the TN kit but about the VQ and boost in general), along with Johnny **** of TN whom I met in person at the PRI show in Orlando (which, in case you didn't know, isn't open to the public)
I've had my grubby hands on a 2003 Z FSM since mid 2004, long before I bought the Z I currently own.
Oh, and since when does the stock MAF max out at 8psi? The TN kit runs a blow-thru setup and guys like Taurran are running 8+psi with an almost perfect 11.8:1 AFR on the TN reflash. And he's running exhaust.....and a plenum spacer, just like I'll be running. Wouldn't that theoretically cause incredible problems since you're saying it's maxed out? It isn't.
Wow....there are those big bad mods again. And the overboost issue...is solved. So that's a moot point now basically.
if I wanted a specific map from the likes of emanage or EU, I could do that all myself, as I've done it before with a trusty wideband and datalogging. However, after much research and time I've decided it's not necessary with the TN reflash. That's another big reason I'm going with this kit. It's probably going to be the simplest install I've ever done. Car will be in the garage on stands sitting comfortably and I've got every last part I'll conceivably need.
Well, based on the research you've done, go for it, you sound confident in the TN setup.
02-08-2006, 01:13 PM
#127
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Originally Posted by Zivman
Well, based on the research you've done, go for it, you sound confident in the TN setup.
We appreciate your positive opinions. Yet, regardless of whether VRT only sells, tunes, and races JWT kits, it is IMPORTANT to note all kits have merit.
ALL Kits. Not just Greddy, APS, or JWT.
It totally depends on the end users goals, objectives, budget, and power requirements. If I were to say I wanted a 800 WHP drag car FI set-up and need a custom fabrication single turbo set-up, you might want to contact Tim and SFR cause Your APS and our JWT kits are not the best choice at all for that goal.
Kind of like making the decision to build or not build your motor. You can boost your non-built motor and make some high dyno runs, yet if you really want to road race that motor under extreme heat and conditions, a motor build make more sense.
So you can see, it all depends on the users goals and objectives. Just my opinion.
M
Last edited by mraturbo; 02-08-2006 at 01:32 PM.
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