Headlift -- sleeved and non-sleeved engines
#101
Registered User
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Shelby Twp, Michigan
Posts: 675
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by meatbag
Hey Sharif i think you and me are on the same page if you are doing the same thing im doing to my block
#102
Sponsor
Forged Performance
Forged Performance
iTrader: (92)
Originally Posted by Yancy
Isn't that nice. I suppose that you can't share your secret either. I'm with everyone else that thinks its patently unfair to all your fellow FI Z and G brothers to hold out on everyone. I thought the forums were for people to help others out and for open communication about our cars and issues that come up?
Guys, I invested a LOT of money to make these things in a very large quantity, so I am sorry, but since the product is not ready for sale or installation, I will not release anymore details about it. Even if I did, it's a mute point, becuase you will not be able to make or find this product anywhere...so whats the point?
#103
Registered User
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Shelby Twp, Michigan
Posts: 675
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
I have no idea what meatbag is doing....
Guys, I invested a LOT of money to make these things in a very large quantity, so I am sorry, but since the product is not ready for sale or installation, I will not release anymore details about it. Even if I did, it's a mute point, becuase you will not be able to make or find this product anywhere...so whats the point?
Guys, I invested a LOT of money to make these things in a very large quantity, so I am sorry, but since the product is not ready for sale or installation, I will not release anymore details about it. Even if I did, it's a mute point, becuase you will not be able to make or find this product anywhere...so whats the point?
#104
Boost Junkie
iTrader: (3)
Originally Posted by Yancy
Can you at least confirm or deny that the people that already have their engines in the car will not have to pull the engine to use what your coming up with? or does the engine need to come out to use it? Thanks.
If you have your block apart and getting machine work done, then the choice is simple, IMO - 1/2 studs. If you're motor is together already, then try out the L19 7/16 studs that was discussed on this forum several times already.
I've seen people quoting from $800 - $1000 bucks for 1/2 head studs, I'll dig up a part # for you guys, the ones we're using are aprx $400 and machine work should cost you no more than $200.
#106
Registered User
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Shelby Twp, Michigan
Posts: 675
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Philthy
If you are going to replace the head studs, half the motor needs to come apart, cams, timing cover, etc... It's a pita for sure.
If you have your block apart and getting machine work done, then the choice is simple, IMO - 1/2 studs. If you're motor is together already, then try out the L19 7/16 studs that was discussed on this forum several times already.
I've seen people quoting from $800 - $1000 bucks for 1/2 head studs, I'll dig up a part # for you guys, the ones we're using are aprx $400 and machine work should cost you no more than $200.
If you have your block apart and getting machine work done, then the choice is simple, IMO - 1/2 studs. If you're motor is together already, then try out the L19 7/16 studs that was discussed on this forum several times already.
I've seen people quoting from $800 - $1000 bucks for 1/2 head studs, I'll dig up a part # for you guys, the ones we're using are aprx $400 and machine work should cost you no more than $200.
I'm curious if the set up I have right now is good for my intended uses and that those considering over 600 are the ones that should be worrying about the head issue and the 1/2 studs and what not? Thanks in advance bro.
#107
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lewisville, TX
Posts: 942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The signs of head lift are happening at all boost levels from 8psi and up. Maybe this is because we have all torn apart the HG's at 16 to 18psi, and it is easier for the combustion gases to seep through. I honestly think that even the 5XX whp guys will eventually have a problem.
The 1/2" studs are fairly large and could possibly affect the integrity of the block. I would be more comfortable with a modified 7/16" stud if it proved reliable.
Philthy - It sounds like you have been running 1/2' studs on your car. If so, how long have you had them and at what boost levels? Right now you are using the liners and not the MID sleeves, right?
The 1/2" studs are fairly large and could possibly affect the integrity of the block. I would be more comfortable with a modified 7/16" stud if it proved reliable.
Philthy - It sounds like you have been running 1/2' studs on your car. If so, how long have you had them and at what boost levels? Right now you are using the liners and not the MID sleeves, right?
#108
Registered User
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fort Hood, TX
Posts: 919
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Then you will be very comfortable with what is coming out!
Originally Posted by t32gzz
The 1/2" studs are fairly large and could possibly affect the integrity of the block. I would be more comfortable with a modified 7/16" stud if it proved reliable.
#109
Registered User
iTrader: (27)
Originally Posted by Yancy
Well, I hope that all the stuff I bought for the Z works. I think its too late now to add the 1/2 studs because the engine is already assembled and shipped out. Why would the 1/2 be that much better than a 7/16 stud? There's not that much of a difference is there? Running 500 rwhp shouldn't be that difficult right? Right now I've been running 8.5 psi with 450 rwhp or so and never have any issues with cooling except oil temp after several repeated hard runs.
the thing for me and most others is that the power is so addicting, chances are pretty good 500rwhp simply will not be enough i am still not satisfied at my power level and have been far into the 600rwhp range. and i like to use it, lol.
my 1/2" studs will be here monday or tuesday, and i will hopefully tear my motor down in a week or so. already got my place reserved at the machine shop and hoping to have the car running again in 2-3 weeks with tons of new goodies to help this motor hold high hp reliably. if this stuff doesn't work, some big manufacturer better start making aftermarket blocks!!!
#110
Boost Junkie
iTrader: (3)
[QUOTE=t32gzz]
The 1/2" studs are fairly large and could possibly affect the integrity of the block. I would be more comfortable with a modified 7/16" stud if it proved reliable.
[QUOTE]
Take a look at the two blocks I posted - the Liners have 1/2 studs and the MID kit has the 7/16 - There is plenty of material for 1/2 studs. Guys are running 40psi on this setup with out a problem, but they're not street cars - they're 1/4 mile only... So the big unknown is longevity, and I don't have the answer to that yet.
The studs I'm using are carbon steel, as L19 was just over kill for 100-110ftlbs. Guys that are using the L19 are going as high as 140ftlbs - but you're talking 1500 + WHP!
The reason you would want to use L19 7/16 studs rather than the carbon steel 7/16 is you can torque them down more with out stretch. We've seen the carbon steel 7/16 studs torque down to 85-90ftlbs, before threads started ripping out. I've heard of people getting more than 90ftlbs too, but it's a big gamble on 7/16 studs regardless if they're carbon steel or L19. Also, once you add major cylinder pressure in the mix, bad things could happen.
In theory the L19 7/16 studs torque down to 90ftlbs should work out ok for guys running up to 700-800whp - but once again, no one knows for sure yet. If this works, it's a great solution for guys looking for the cheapest way out or guys that have their motors built up already.
We're all learning each day, and the BIG DISCLAIMER is - what worked for one guy, may not work for the other.
The 1/2" studs are fairly large and could possibly affect the integrity of the block. I would be more comfortable with a modified 7/16" stud if it proved reliable.
[QUOTE]
Take a look at the two blocks I posted - the Liners have 1/2 studs and the MID kit has the 7/16 - There is plenty of material for 1/2 studs. Guys are running 40psi on this setup with out a problem, but they're not street cars - they're 1/4 mile only... So the big unknown is longevity, and I don't have the answer to that yet.
The studs I'm using are carbon steel, as L19 was just over kill for 100-110ftlbs. Guys that are using the L19 are going as high as 140ftlbs - but you're talking 1500 + WHP!
The reason you would want to use L19 7/16 studs rather than the carbon steel 7/16 is you can torque them down more with out stretch. We've seen the carbon steel 7/16 studs torque down to 85-90ftlbs, before threads started ripping out. I've heard of people getting more than 90ftlbs too, but it's a big gamble on 7/16 studs regardless if they're carbon steel or L19. Also, once you add major cylinder pressure in the mix, bad things could happen.
In theory the L19 7/16 studs torque down to 90ftlbs should work out ok for guys running up to 700-800whp - but once again, no one knows for sure yet. If this works, it's a great solution for guys looking for the cheapest way out or guys that have their motors built up already.
We're all learning each day, and the BIG DISCLAIMER is - what worked for one guy, may not work for the other.
#111
Sponsor
Forged Performance
Forged Performance
iTrader: (92)
[QUOTE=Philthy]
The studs I'm using are carbon steel, as L19 was just over kill for 100-110ftlbs. Guys that are using the L19 are going as high as 140ftlbs - but you're talking 1500 + WHP!
We're all learning each day, and the BIG DISCLAIMER is - what worked for one guy, may not work for the other.
Hey Philthy, my partner in crime tested the 7/16th studs to 110ft/lbs before they pulled the threads out of the block. Remember that your guy just used a trq plate, and cranked down the studs, and this was the likely reason his threads broke at 85ft/lbs. My partner actually installed a gasket, head, moly lube, and trq them to to 110ft/lbs.
Even trqing these new studs down to 85ft/lbs is still a 35%+ increase in clamping force.
I do agree with your disclaimer. We're all trying to develop products that reduce, but do not necessarily eliminate the risk of head lift, but I am confident this solution will work fine for the sub 800whp crowd.
Yancy, the ARP studs have an allen key hole on them, so you can remove them while leaving your block/heads in the car. It is a PITA, but it can be done. The only unknown, is whether increasing the clamping force from 65ft/lbs to roughly 85-90ft/lbs will result in cylinder distortion. Probably a little bit...but if I was my engine...I would go ahead and do it. Lots of people build engines without using trq plates anyways (not that I agree with that), but it has been done.
Originally Posted by t32gzz
The studs I'm using are carbon steel, as L19 was just over kill for 100-110ftlbs. Guys that are using the L19 are going as high as 140ftlbs - but you're talking 1500 + WHP!
We're all learning each day, and the BIG DISCLAIMER is - what worked for one guy, may not work for the other.
Even trqing these new studs down to 85ft/lbs is still a 35%+ increase in clamping force.
I do agree with your disclaimer. We're all trying to develop products that reduce, but do not necessarily eliminate the risk of head lift, but I am confident this solution will work fine for the sub 800whp crowd.
Yancy, the ARP studs have an allen key hole on them, so you can remove them while leaving your block/heads in the car. It is a PITA, but it can be done. The only unknown, is whether increasing the clamping force from 65ft/lbs to roughly 85-90ft/lbs will result in cylinder distortion. Probably a little bit...but if I was my engine...I would go ahead and do it. Lots of people build engines without using trq plates anyways (not that I agree with that), but it has been done.
#112
Boost Junkie
iTrader: (3)
Agreed, our testing was done with the torque plate and not the heads, but not all blocks will react the same - some may hold 110ftlbs with 7/16 some may not. The odds of 1/2" studs holding 110ftlbs is pretty much a 100%.
I can't wait for you to get your testing done, it will be a killer solution for all of these already built blocks out there.
I can't wait for you to get your testing done, it will be a killer solution for all of these already built blocks out there.
#113
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lewisville, TX
Posts: 942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I apologize in advance for the stupid question, but using a torque plate will limit the amount you can torque the studs down?
In Sharif's post above it looks like the studs backed out at 85 ft/lbs with the tq plate, and 110 ft/lbs without. Is there a secret besides not using the tq plate to torqueing the studs further?
In Sharif's post above it looks like the studs backed out at 85 ft/lbs with the tq plate, and 110 ft/lbs without. Is there a secret besides not using the tq plate to torqueing the studs further?
#114
Registered User
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fort Hood, TX
Posts: 919
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They tested when the studs would pull out and with just the torque plate they stripped at 85ft/lbs. With all the other materials involved(elastomers, multilayer metals in hg's and heads) this didn't happen until a much higher torque rating.
Originally Posted by t32gzz
I apologize in advance for the stupid question, but using a torque plate will limit the amount you can torque the studs down?
In Sharif's post above it looks like the studs backed out at 85 ft/lbs with the tq plate, and 110 ft/lbs without. Is there a secret besides not using the tq plate to torqueing the studs further?
In Sharif's post above it looks like the studs backed out at 85 ft/lbs with the tq plate, and 110 ft/lbs without. Is there a secret besides not using the tq plate to torqueing the studs further?
#116
Sponsor
Forged Performance
Forged Performance
iTrader: (92)
Originally Posted by t32gzz
I apologize in advance for the stupid question, but using a torque plate will limit the amount you can torque the studs down?
In Sharif's post above it looks like the studs backed out at 85 ft/lbs with the tq plate, and 110 ft/lbs without. Is there a secret besides not using the tq plate to torqueing the studs further?
In Sharif's post above it looks like the studs backed out at 85 ft/lbs with the tq plate, and 110 ft/lbs without. Is there a secret besides not using the tq plate to torqueing the studs further?
It will be a good idea to chase the threads with a tap, to clean up any foreign material, and thoroughly clean each hole before trqing down the studs.
#117
Registered User
iTrader: (27)
i plan on creating more thread depth into the block than the current length studs are reaching. plus with the bolt actually being larger diameter, it is grabbing more thread material to hold better and stronger. we are looking for 1.5-1.75" thread engagement into the block. no worries of pull out there.
#119
Registered User
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 4,328
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Would it be less expensive for me just to rebuild my turbos to 20g's so I can make 600whp at <13psi instead of going with new bolts? I wouldn't have to pull the motor to get this done.
#120
Registered User
iTrader: (27)
Originally Posted by Gman2004
Would it be less expensive for me just to rebuild my turbos to 20g's so I can make 600whp at <13psi instead of going with new bolts? I wouldn't have to pull the motor to get this done.