my vortech tuner kit install process thread
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max boost is at redline on a vortech so you want to stay closer to redline, though with a larger blower and the 2.87 or smaller pulley the 3.3 might be a better idea, but I have yet to see dynos of setups like that since those boundaries are currently still being pushed
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Originally Posted by sentry65
ok I totalled up the total vertical area and have some totalled numbers. I figure that box is going from 310-440hp which is 130. Well 130/440 = 29.54%
meaning the box only accounts for 29.54% and the other 70.45% is completely full. See the graph to see the total vertical area filled. So anyway I came up with these numbers showing how much area is covered under the curve:
vortech with 3.9 = 89.359%
vortech 3.5 = 87.88%
vortech 3.3 = 86.55%
ST 3.9 = 83.45%
ST 3.5 = 83.598%
ST 3.3 = 83.598%
so the 440whp vortech with 3.9 gears is 6.89% (89.359/83.598) stronger than the 400whp ST kit during WOT. The ST's saving grace is it shifts less.
with a stock NA auto Z, I think using this method can be used to determine if the 3.5 or 3.9 gears would be the best choice.
meaning the box only accounts for 29.54% and the other 70.45% is completely full. See the graph to see the total vertical area filled. So anyway I came up with these numbers showing how much area is covered under the curve:
vortech with 3.9 = 89.359%
vortech 3.5 = 87.88%
vortech 3.3 = 86.55%
ST 3.9 = 83.45%
ST 3.5 = 83.598%
ST 3.3 = 83.598%
so the 440whp vortech with 3.9 gears is 6.89% (89.359/83.598) stronger than the 400whp ST kit during WOT. The ST's saving grace is it shifts less.
with a stock NA auto Z, I think using this method can be used to determine if the 3.5 or 3.9 gears would be the best choice.
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Originally Posted by sentry65
total tq would actually be equal between the 3.9 and 3.5 on the vortech
the total tq for the 3.3 gearing would be lower by .7%
I'll post up seperate tq and hp numbers for each setup in a sec
the total tq for the 3.3 gearing would be lower by .7%
I'll post up seperate tq and hp numbers for each setup in a sec
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From: phoenix, AZ
Originally Posted by jpc350z
To clarify, what would be of interest is a plot comparison showing the tq vs rpm between the 2 gears..
I'm not sure I understand? like you want dynos of the exact same car but with different final drives and see where the tq curve is between the two?
I don't think there will be any difference, which is why 3rd gear doesn't dyno much different than 5th gear etc
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here is another thing that's interesting
This graph shows a typical 400whp ST car, a 440whp vortech SC car, and a stock Z
the added midrange tq is always one of the big things people like about turbos because of how much it can be felt compared to stock. Usually a turbo makes 150 lbs wtq more than stock
a 440whp vortech car will make some good tq too, but not until up higher. At redline there will actually be a bigger difference in tq - about 175whp.
so if you drove a 400whp ST car at around 4700 rpms then stepped on the gas you'd get 150 lbs more tq than stock. If you drove a 440whp vortech car somewhat close to redline then stomped it, you'd get 175 lbs more tq than stock.
So it'd still impress your friends when you step on it, you just gotta be up high in the rpms. Being close to redline would obviously sound way meaner than at 4500 too
The JWT cams are mainly responsible for the higher end power because the ST and vortech will both be making about the same psi at redline. The cams help out the top end, and help get heat out of the engine faster than stock
yeah, can't you tell i'm really bored and just want my car done already?
This graph shows a typical 400whp ST car, a 440whp vortech SC car, and a stock Z
the added midrange tq is always one of the big things people like about turbos because of how much it can be felt compared to stock. Usually a turbo makes 150 lbs wtq more than stock
a 440whp vortech car will make some good tq too, but not until up higher. At redline there will actually be a bigger difference in tq - about 175whp.
so if you drove a 400whp ST car at around 4700 rpms then stepped on the gas you'd get 150 lbs more tq than stock. If you drove a 440whp vortech car somewhat close to redline then stomped it, you'd get 175 lbs more tq than stock.
So it'd still impress your friends when you step on it, you just gotta be up high in the rpms. Being close to redline would obviously sound way meaner than at 4500 too
The JWT cams are mainly responsible for the higher end power because the ST and vortech will both be making about the same psi at redline. The cams help out the top end, and help get heat out of the engine faster than stock
yeah, can't you tell i'm really bored and just want my car done already?
Last edited by sentry65; Mar 30, 2006 at 02:57 PM.
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Would not the rpm of the wheels be different when the oem is changed to a 3.9 gear? The engines tq , which will not change overall is being applied to a different set of gear ratios providing a mechanical advantage..the car accelerates faster..
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right but that doesn't really show up on typical dyno readouts, you'd have to measure tq vs speed, not tq vs rpm - which all you have to do in the dyno readout software is switch it from rpm to speed.
I've seen graphs showing this. I have one somewhere for an NA Z before and after, but don't have it with me here.
I've seen graphs showing this. I have one somewhere for an NA Z before and after, but don't have it with me here.
Last edited by sentry65; Mar 29, 2006 at 11:44 AM.
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here's a mockup of what it'd look similar to though, blue being 3.9 gears, black being 3.5
so you're saying to factor that in and calculate the volume
hmm that's starting to get harder because it's becoming a three dimensional graph with this data being the axis coming towards you. Actually I don't think it'd be that hard now that I think of it. It's just another multiplication really
basically the 3.9's accelleration is huge over the 3.5's, but it loses steam dramatically faster than the 3.5. Though I still think it's a little beyond a normal 6600 rpm redline where the tq really starts dropping, but I'd have to see the original graph with real data to say or not. But that was the impression I remember
so you're saying to factor that in and calculate the volume
hmm that's starting to get harder because it's becoming a three dimensional graph with this data being the axis coming towards you. Actually I don't think it'd be that hard now that I think of it. It's just another multiplication really
basically the 3.9's accelleration is huge over the 3.5's, but it loses steam dramatically faster than the 3.5. Though I still think it's a little beyond a normal 6600 rpm redline where the tq really starts dropping, but I'd have to see the original graph with real data to say or not. But that was the impression I remember
Last edited by sentry65; Mar 29, 2006 at 12:03 PM.
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A good way of measuring the benefits in the difference would be to rent a dyno for a couple hours and take identical cars except one would have the 3.9 gear and measure the speed or tq (wheels) in each gear 1st, 2nd etc and plot one against the other..or blend each cars overall output and compare..Well enough wishful dreaming...Anyway any meaningful way of showing the actual benefit of a 3.9 gearing is appreciated.. By the way I will be in Chandler Az the week of 5/15 maybe we could hook up and by then your car should be done..
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jpc350z, yeah just pm me if you wanna meet up.
I think even with two different cars, you're always going to get different power numbers though because of so many factors. How new the engine is, how it was broken in, what oil it's using, how the car is driven for how the ECU adjusts timing and what map it's currently on, etc
ok well back on subject. I stopped by Dynocomp again this morning to drop off the solid motor mounts I received yesterday from overZealous1
First thing they did was kinda chuckle looking at them asking me if I'm absolutely sure I want to put them in because the engine's vibration will be directly linked to the body. I said to do it cause so far the people that have done it haven't said it's all that bad. And even the LS1 guys with their bigger engines for their cars who went with solid ones as opposed to stock or polyurethane say the vibration is not bad at all and the vibration that is there they kinda like. I'm thinking maybe because the Z has a unibody that this is why this is? Anyway I think I might like it because it would make the engine feel bigger than it is at idle. Otherwise I'm doing them for all the benefits that they offer. Being 1/8 inch lower, that ensures that the thermogasket on my SSV will not push the SSV into the strut bar when the engine moves - which it won't move anymore after this. Hoping they'll help with traction and fight wheel hop, get more power to the ground, and improve handling because the engine itself becomes a strut bar to a degree. Shifting precision is also supposed to improve with the mounts because the transmission won't be vibrating because of the engine anymore
anyway I have more pictures. The crawford headers are nice and shiny now and have been mounted. The intake piping has been put on - it's all just mockup until the engine is actually IN the car. He thermowrapped a bunch of stuff. He noticed the main power cable going to the battery had a hole burned into the plastic covering from the crawford headers so that was wrapped really well. Also the ignition starter is almost touching the crawford headers, so he put some thermotape around that too just to be safe. The MAF housing was a DIY job that I did with zip ties a while ago and he's going to go ahead and use a clamp or something to make it look nicer.
Oh yeah, someone (joe?) put a "dynocomp tuning" sticker on my SSV - hehe. I actually don't really mind it so just said to leave it. Maybe I'll take it off someday if it starts melting or something, but I didn't think it looked bad.
One of these pictures you can compare the stock motor mounts to the solid ones - big difference.
Unfortunately the car won't get done until tuesday at the earliest because since I was waiting on the motor mounts, John had to move onto other projects and I told him that was ok and to go ahead. So he's already told the customer of a mercedes that he'd finish his car this week etc because we weren't exactly sure what day we'd get the motor mounts.
This probably works out for the better cause I need to order a Gates accessory belt and would rather go with that than a stock nissan belt.
John also recommend I get honda coolant for the radiator because they make the best coolant, though more expensive. I'm also going to bring in 6 quarts of mobile 1 sythetic oil and a K&N oil filter. That's it for now
I'm thinking someday if I ever upgraded my blower, I can go with a polished one and get the piping polished - if someone doesn't come up with a single piece intake pipe with the MAF integrated in like the APS ones
I think even with two different cars, you're always going to get different power numbers though because of so many factors. How new the engine is, how it was broken in, what oil it's using, how the car is driven for how the ECU adjusts timing and what map it's currently on, etc
ok well back on subject. I stopped by Dynocomp again this morning to drop off the solid motor mounts I received yesterday from overZealous1
First thing they did was kinda chuckle looking at them asking me if I'm absolutely sure I want to put them in because the engine's vibration will be directly linked to the body. I said to do it cause so far the people that have done it haven't said it's all that bad. And even the LS1 guys with their bigger engines for their cars who went with solid ones as opposed to stock or polyurethane say the vibration is not bad at all and the vibration that is there they kinda like. I'm thinking maybe because the Z has a unibody that this is why this is? Anyway I think I might like it because it would make the engine feel bigger than it is at idle. Otherwise I'm doing them for all the benefits that they offer. Being 1/8 inch lower, that ensures that the thermogasket on my SSV will not push the SSV into the strut bar when the engine moves - which it won't move anymore after this. Hoping they'll help with traction and fight wheel hop, get more power to the ground, and improve handling because the engine itself becomes a strut bar to a degree. Shifting precision is also supposed to improve with the mounts because the transmission won't be vibrating because of the engine anymore
anyway I have more pictures. The crawford headers are nice and shiny now and have been mounted. The intake piping has been put on - it's all just mockup until the engine is actually IN the car. He thermowrapped a bunch of stuff. He noticed the main power cable going to the battery had a hole burned into the plastic covering from the crawford headers so that was wrapped really well. Also the ignition starter is almost touching the crawford headers, so he put some thermotape around that too just to be safe. The MAF housing was a DIY job that I did with zip ties a while ago and he's going to go ahead and use a clamp or something to make it look nicer.
Oh yeah, someone (joe?) put a "dynocomp tuning" sticker on my SSV - hehe. I actually don't really mind it so just said to leave it. Maybe I'll take it off someday if it starts melting or something, but I didn't think it looked bad.
One of these pictures you can compare the stock motor mounts to the solid ones - big difference.
Unfortunately the car won't get done until tuesday at the earliest because since I was waiting on the motor mounts, John had to move onto other projects and I told him that was ok and to go ahead. So he's already told the customer of a mercedes that he'd finish his car this week etc because we weren't exactly sure what day we'd get the motor mounts.
This probably works out for the better cause I need to order a Gates accessory belt and would rather go with that than a stock nissan belt.
John also recommend I get honda coolant for the radiator because they make the best coolant, though more expensive. I'm also going to bring in 6 quarts of mobile 1 sythetic oil and a K&N oil filter. That's it for now
I'm thinking someday if I ever upgraded my blower, I can go with a polished one and get the piping polished - if someone doesn't come up with a single piece intake pipe with the MAF integrated in like the APS ones
Last edited by sentry65; Apr 6, 2006 at 09:50 AM.
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That OEM motor mounts are designed to absorb engine vib and loads from transmitting into the body ..Gotta believe those solid mounts will transmit into the body big time...But sounds like you have been in a car with those mounts and are satisfied with it...General rule is better to absorb energy than to send it somewhere else where its not designed for it...
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From: phoenix, AZ
Yeah I've read up a lot on everything and a couple people have said they didn't even realize they were installed in the Z or that the vibration didn't seem bad at all. I've read the same feedback from people in other cars so that's what I'm going off of. Someone said his friend's turbo civic rattles his teeth out and I'm thinking civics weigh like 2300-2400 lbs so there's very little body frame to absorb the vibration. Civics don't exactly have high tech chasis either
All the opinions I've read about solid motor mounts seems to be people who have never had them saying they're too extreme, and the people who do have them installed saying they're not all that bad really. I'm just going to take the chance cause all the benefits sound great to me
here's some threads on the LS1, viper, and mustang forums for those interested. Surely their engines vibrate more than the Z:
LS1
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showth...d+motor+mounts
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showth...d+motor+mounts
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showth...d+motor+mounts
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showth...d+motor+mounts
mustang
http://www.mustangforums.com/m_99991.../tm.htm#999916
viper
http://www.dodgeforum.com/m_381570/m.../tm.htm#381570
http://www.dodgeforum.com/m_296889/m.../tm.htm#296889
EVO
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthr...d+motor+mounts
We'll see though. I'm all for having a little vibration as long as it won't be crazy enough to spill water out of a cup sitting in the cupholder
All the opinions I've read about solid motor mounts seems to be people who have never had them saying they're too extreme, and the people who do have them installed saying they're not all that bad really. I'm just going to take the chance cause all the benefits sound great to me
here's some threads on the LS1, viper, and mustang forums for those interested. Surely their engines vibrate more than the Z:
LS1
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showth...d+motor+mounts
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showth...d+motor+mounts
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showth...d+motor+mounts
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showth...d+motor+mounts
mustang
http://www.mustangforums.com/m_99991.../tm.htm#999916
viper
http://www.dodgeforum.com/m_381570/m.../tm.htm#381570
http://www.dodgeforum.com/m_296889/m.../tm.htm#296889
EVO
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthr...d+motor+mounts
We'll see though. I'm all for having a little vibration as long as it won't be crazy enough to spill water out of a cup sitting in the cupholder
Last edited by sentry65; Mar 30, 2006 at 11:51 AM.
lol
real cars squeek, fart, rattle, hum, etc..
I am considering the solid motor mounts, the pros clearly outweigh the cons for me, It all depends what the priorities are... everything OEM pretty much sucks if you are serious about driving.
I'm impressed sentry by how much you did your homework on this.
BTW, I'm guessing you are getting rid of the stillen dampenerr now, right?
real cars squeek, fart, rattle, hum, etc..
I am considering the solid motor mounts, the pros clearly outweigh the cons for me, It all depends what the priorities are... everything OEM pretty much sucks if you are serious about driving.
I'm impressed sentry by how much you did your homework on this.
BTW, I'm guessing you are getting rid of the stillen dampenerr now, right?
Last edited by Nano; Mar 30, 2006 at 01:07 PM.
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From: phoenix, AZ
Originally Posted by Nano
lol
real cars squeek, fart, rattle, hum, etc..
I am considering the solid motor mounts, the pros clearly outweigh the cons for me, It all depends what the priorities are... everything OEM pretty much sucks if you are serious about driving.
I'm impressed sentry by how much you did your homework on this.
BTW, I'm guessing you are getting rid of the stillen dampenerr now, right?
real cars squeek, fart, rattle, hum, etc..
I am considering the solid motor mounts, the pros clearly outweigh the cons for me, It all depends what the priorities are... everything OEM pretty much sucks if you are serious about driving.
I'm impressed sentry by how much you did your homework on this.
BTW, I'm guessing you are getting rid of the stillen dampenerr now, right?
thanks man, yeah I hope it pays off with being a well balanced car that leans a little closer to a race car than a nice quiet street ride. For sure it's a different setup than the usual stock car with a turbo and some bling rims.
I'm actually not sure what to think on the stillen dampener or not. I might sell it. I mean it probably isn't going to be doing much after the solid motor mounts are on, but who knows I suppose it wouldn't hurt to just leave it on either - looks neat, doesn't weight anything, and might keep the engine just slightly more locked down. I'll think about it, but it's not like I'd get much money from selling it either