Spearco Water Injection System (Universal Kit)
04-02-2007, 06:45 AM
#63
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Originally Posted by Devil Z
So is this easy to install by myself? I am NOT looking for more power with water/meth.
Just extra insurance.
Just extra insurance.
Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
No joke, a monkey would wire up this kit....its three wires, and completely idiot proof.
04-02-2007, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by gringott
I like to call it an auxiliary braking system, toss it out the window and it will drag you to a stop.
04-02-2007, 12:15 PM
#65
Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
Well in all fairness to the controller unit it is tiny and can be mounted basically anywhere. Its a set and forget controller too unless you want to turn it on or off. A quick look at the dimensions of the controller:
Its under 2.5" wide, just over .5" tall, and just under 1.5" deep. Thank about those dimensions. It would EASILY fit into your jean pockets even if you hae Wranglers on. Its just slightly larger then a pack of cigarettes. I do understand the desire to not add any controllers and have it run off your EMS and that's why I'll be asking the Spearco Project Manager about getting the kit minus controller only but I don't want people to get the wrong idea about the controller size. In fact Sharif originally planned to incorporate the pump into his EMS but found the controller so much easier to set up and use and so small that he just stuck with the out of box controller instead.
Its under 2.5" wide, just over .5" tall, and just under 1.5" deep. Thank about those dimensions. It would EASILY fit into your jean pockets even if you hae Wranglers on. Its just slightly larger then a pack of cigarettes. I do understand the desire to not add any controllers and have it run off your EMS and that's why I'll be asking the Spearco Project Manager about getting the kit minus controller only but I don't want people to get the wrong idea about the controller size. In fact Sharif originally planned to incorporate the pump into his EMS but found the controller so much easier to set up and use and so small that he just stuck with the out of box controller instead.
I don't have a problem with the dimensions of the controller, it is indeed small.
The reason that I want to control the injection with the Fcon (or any other programmable PWM output) is that the controller above (or any other with the exception of the Aquamist's or FJO's controller) cannot do waht I want it to do: maintain constant and controlled WFR (Water/Fuel ratio). WFR has to be controlled like the AFr is for truly proper WI setup. I have said this numerous times on other WI threads. You can set the flow of water with the controller, as well as at what boost pressure/etc it commences injection. BUT, once the WI is on, it flow at constant rate. This would be ok if you have a WI'd airplane engine with a constant speed (variable pitch) propeller. But, in a car, with highly varied RPMs, this will not work well. While the water flows at a constant rate, the air and fuel do not. If you start injecting at X cc/min (water) at say 1+ psi of boost, and you get to 1 psi of boost (and more) at 3000-4000rpm, as you are revving up past 6000, your air and fuel flow has nearly doubled, while your water flow stayed the same...hence you don't have as much water prtection azt high rpms, or, conversely, have too much water in the mid-range.
Do yo usee my point?
It is not enough to control amt of water injected with boost, it also must be varied with RPM.
04-02-2007, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by GurgenPB
Mia, Sharif
I don't have a problem with the dimensions of the controller, it is indeed small.
The reason that I want to control the injection with the Fcon (or any other programmable PWM output) is that the controller above (or any other with the exception of the Aquamist's or FJO's controller) cannot do waht I want it to do: maintain constant and controlled WFR (Water/Fuel ratio). WFR has to be controlled like the AFr is for truly proper WI setup. I have said this numerous times on other WI threads. You can set the flow of water with the controller, as well as at what boost pressure/etc it commences injection. BUT, once the WI is on, it flow at constant rate. This would be ok if you have a WI'd airplane engine with a constant speed (variable pitch) propeller. But, in a car, with highly varied RPMs, this will not work well. While the water flows at a constant rate, the air and fuel do not. If you start injecting at X cc/min (water) at say 1+ psi of boost, and you get to 1 psi of boost (and more) at 3000-4000rpm, as you are revving up past 6000, your air and fuel flow has nearly doubled, while your water flow stayed the same...hence you don't have as much water prtection azt high rpms, or, conversely, have too much water in the mid-range.
Do yo usee my point?
It is not enough to control amt of water injected with boost, it also must be varied with RPM.
I don't have a problem with the dimensions of the controller, it is indeed small.
The reason that I want to control the injection with the Fcon (or any other programmable PWM output) is that the controller above (or any other with the exception of the Aquamist's or FJO's controller) cannot do waht I want it to do: maintain constant and controlled WFR (Water/Fuel ratio). WFR has to be controlled like the AFr is for truly proper WI setup. I have said this numerous times on other WI threads. You can set the flow of water with the controller, as well as at what boost pressure/etc it commences injection. BUT, once the WI is on, it flow at constant rate. This would be ok if you have a WI'd airplane engine with a constant speed (variable pitch) propeller. But, in a car, with highly varied RPMs, this will not work well. While the water flows at a constant rate, the air and fuel do not. If you start injecting at X cc/min (water) at say 1+ psi of boost, and you get to 1 psi of boost (and more) at 3000-4000rpm, as you are revving up past 6000, your air and fuel flow has nearly doubled, while your water flow stayed the same...hence you don't have as much water prtection azt high rpms, or, conversely, have too much water in the mid-range.
Do yo usee my point?
It is not enough to control amt of water injected with boost, it also must be varied with RPM.
http://turboneticsownersclub.com/tur...structions.doc
04-02-2007, 12:41 PM
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To answer you prior question I spoke with the Spearco Project Manager today and the pump is not currently stocked seperate from the controller. I did explain to him what you were trying to do and he said he would look into sourcing the pump alone...
04-02-2007, 01:21 PM
#69
Originally Posted by GurgenPB
Mia, Sharif
I don't have a problem with the dimensions of the controller, it is indeed small.
The reason that I want to control the injection with the Fcon (or any other programmable PWM output) is that the controller above (or any other with the exception of the Aquamist's or FJO's controller) cannot do waht I want it to do: maintain constant and controlled WFR (Water/Fuel ratio). WFR has to be controlled like the AFr is for truly proper WI setup. I have said this numerous times on other WI threads. You can set the flow of water with the controller, as well as at what boost pressure/etc it commences injection. BUT, once the WI is on, it flow at constant rate. This would be ok if you have a WI'd airplane engine with a constant speed (variable pitch) propeller. But, in a car, with highly varied RPMs, this will not work well. While the water flows at a constant rate, the air and fuel do not. If you start injecting at X cc/min (water) at say 1+ psi of boost, and you get to 1 psi of boost (and more) at 3000-4000rpm, as you are revving up past 6000, your air and fuel flow has nearly doubled, while your water flow stayed the same...hence you don't have as much water prtection azt high rpms, or, conversely, have too much water in the mid-range.
Do yo usee my point?
It is not enough to control amt of water injected with boost, it also must be varied with RPM.
I don't have a problem with the dimensions of the controller, it is indeed small.
The reason that I want to control the injection with the Fcon (or any other programmable PWM output) is that the controller above (or any other with the exception of the Aquamist's or FJO's controller) cannot do waht I want it to do: maintain constant and controlled WFR (Water/Fuel ratio). WFR has to be controlled like the AFr is for truly proper WI setup. I have said this numerous times on other WI threads. You can set the flow of water with the controller, as well as at what boost pressure/etc it commences injection. BUT, once the WI is on, it flow at constant rate. This would be ok if you have a WI'd airplane engine with a constant speed (variable pitch) propeller. But, in a car, with highly varied RPMs, this will not work well. While the water flows at a constant rate, the air and fuel do not. If you start injecting at X cc/min (water) at say 1+ psi of boost, and you get to 1 psi of boost (and more) at 3000-4000rpm, as you are revving up past 6000, your air and fuel flow has nearly doubled, while your water flow stayed the same...hence you don't have as much water prtection azt high rpms, or, conversely, have too much water in the mid-range.
Do yo usee my point?
It is not enough to control amt of water injected with boost, it also must be varied with RPM.
Good point..I hadnt considered that. For this type of delivery, I think that only an EMS based control is the only way to make it work as you described.
When I tuned for meth, it is always as an insurance policy, so I am not overly concerned with less meth at high RPM.
04-02-2007, 02:33 PM
#70
Originally Posted by gringott
Gurgen continues his "mad scientist" tradition!
MIA
Thanks for following up. This setup would need the whole setup MINUS the controller, so that it can include the nozzle/solenoid, pump, lines, mounting hardware, and tank. Basically, what Aquamist 2c kit includes.
To calrify, I am not talking about gain. Gain on this controller controls the rate of water flow relative to boost...that is a good thing..the more boost you run, the more air and fuel, the more water required. BUT, the flow of air/fuel increases with RPM, while with this setup the water does not. That's what i am pointing out. If you speak with Richard Lamb, the inventor of the Aquamist, he will reaffirm the importance of this point.
Also, Mia, on monitoring the WFR. There is NO way to do this directly, ala the wideband O2 sensor used for AFR monitoring. It must be calcualted and programmed into the injection controller. IT is a little sticky, but not too difficult to do. I can show you guys how if you'd like. The magic number is about 12.5-15% water-to-fuel ratio. Greater numbers can be used for greater protection and power gain, but the WI system MUST be elaborate to do that, with VERY good water droplet atomization. You pretty much reach the ABSOLUTE limit at 40-50% WFR, when you will experience bogging down due to too much water.
Anecdote: Ford R&D, a couple of years back, did a prototype vehicle with extensive WI use. They took a 5.4L V8 9:1 CR 350lb/ft torque Ford Excursion, dropped the engine, changed out the pistons to change the engine to 16:1 CR. With extensive work/tuning, they were able to turn that car into a 540lb/ft of torque car and, most importantly, raise the fuel consumption from ~10mpg to 27mpg on 87octane. If that's not testament to what WI can do, I do not know what is. The problem is, that almost NO tuner I know can proeprly take advantage of WI while tuning a car to extract this much safety and efficacy out of what it can offer. BTW, this is NOT water/methanol setup, but a PURE 100% water setup. BTW, the WFR was 100%, which made it prohibitive for a general production car.
Sharif,
The Aquamist 2s and the full FJO setup DO allow you to do this without an EMS, albeit not in an elegant way that the EMS would allow.
Last edited by GurgenPB; 04-02-2007 at 02:36 PM.
04-02-2007, 03:09 PM
#71
Originally Posted by GurgenPB
That's the only way to be....
MIA
Thanks for following up. This setup would need the whole setup MINUS the controller, so that it can include the nozzle/solenoid, pump, lines, mounting hardware, and tank. Basically, what Aquamist 2c kit includes.
To calrify, I am not talking about gain. Gain on this controller controls the rate of water flow relative to boost...that is a good thing..the more boost you run, the more air and fuel, the more water required. BUT, the flow of air/fuel increases with RPM, while with this setup the water does not. That's what i am pointing out. If you speak with Richard Lamb, the inventor of the Aquamist, he will reaffirm the importance of this point.
Also, Mia, on monitoring the WFR. There is NO way to do this directly, ala the wideband O2 sensor used for AFR monitoring. It must be calcualted and programmed into the injection controller. IT is a little sticky, but not too difficult to do. I can show you guys how if you'd like. The magic number is about 12.5-15% water-to-fuel ratio. Greater numbers can be used for greater protection and power gain, but the WI system MUST be elaborate to do that, with VERY good water droplet atomization. You pretty much reach the ABSOLUTE limit at 40-50% WFR, when you will experience bogging down due to too much water.
Anecdote: Ford R&D, a couple of years back, did a prototype vehicle with extensive WI use. They took a 5.4L V8 9:1 CR 350lb/ft torque Ford Excursion, dropped the engine, changed out the pistons to change the engine to 16:1 CR. With extensive work/tuning, they were able to turn that car into a 540lb/ft of torque car and, most importantly, raise the fuel consumption from ~10mpg to 27mpg on 87octane. If that's not testament to what WI can do, I do not know what is. The problem is, that almost NO tuner I know can proeprly take advantage of WI while tuning a car to extract this much safety and efficacy out of what it can offer. BTW, this is NOT water/methanol setup, but a PURE 100% water setup. BTW, the WFR was 100%, which made it prohibitive for a general production car.
Sharif,
The Aquamist 2s and the full FJO setup DO allow you to do this without an EMS, albeit not in an elegant way that the EMS would allow.
MIA
Thanks for following up. This setup would need the whole setup MINUS the controller, so that it can include the nozzle/solenoid, pump, lines, mounting hardware, and tank. Basically, what Aquamist 2c kit includes.
To calrify, I am not talking about gain. Gain on this controller controls the rate of water flow relative to boost...that is a good thing..the more boost you run, the more air and fuel, the more water required. BUT, the flow of air/fuel increases with RPM, while with this setup the water does not. That's what i am pointing out. If you speak with Richard Lamb, the inventor of the Aquamist, he will reaffirm the importance of this point.
Also, Mia, on monitoring the WFR. There is NO way to do this directly, ala the wideband O2 sensor used for AFR monitoring. It must be calcualted and programmed into the injection controller. IT is a little sticky, but not too difficult to do. I can show you guys how if you'd like. The magic number is about 12.5-15% water-to-fuel ratio. Greater numbers can be used for greater protection and power gain, but the WI system MUST be elaborate to do that, with VERY good water droplet atomization. You pretty much reach the ABSOLUTE limit at 40-50% WFR, when you will experience bogging down due to too much water.
Anecdote: Ford R&D, a couple of years back, did a prototype vehicle with extensive WI use. They took a 5.4L V8 9:1 CR 350lb/ft torque Ford Excursion, dropped the engine, changed out the pistons to change the engine to 16:1 CR. With extensive work/tuning, they were able to turn that car into a 540lb/ft of torque car and, most importantly, raise the fuel consumption from ~10mpg to 27mpg on 87octane. If that's not testament to what WI can do, I do not know what is. The problem is, that almost NO tuner I know can proeprly take advantage of WI while tuning a car to extract this much safety and efficacy out of what it can offer. BTW, this is NOT water/methanol setup, but a PURE 100% water setup. BTW, the WFR was 100%, which made it prohibitive for a general production car.
Sharif,
The Aquamist 2s and the full FJO setup DO allow you to do this without an EMS, albeit not in an elegant way that the EMS would allow.
04-02-2007, 04:00 PM
#72
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Originally Posted by GurgenPB
That's the only way to be....
MIA
Thanks for following up. This setup would need the whole setup MINUS the controller, so that it can include the nozzle/solenoid, pump, lines, mounting hardware, and tank. Basically, what Aquamist 2c kit includes.
To calrify, I am not talking about gain. Gain on this controller controls the rate of water flow relative to boost...that is a good thing..the more boost you run, the more air and fuel, the more water required. BUT, the flow of air/fuel increases with RPM, while with this setup the water does not. That's what i am pointing out. If you speak with Richard Lamb, the inventor of the Aquamist, he will reaffirm the importance of this point.
Also, Mia, on monitoring the WFR. There is NO way to do this directly, ala the wideband O2 sensor used for AFR monitoring. It must be calcualted and programmed into the injection controller. IT is a little sticky, but not too difficult to do. I can show you guys how if you'd like. The magic number is about 12.5-15% water-to-fuel ratio. Greater numbers can be used for greater protection and power gain, but the WI system MUST be elaborate to do that, with VERY good water droplet atomization. You pretty much reach the ABSOLUTE limit at 40-50% WFR, when you will experience bogging down due to too much water.
Anecdote: Ford R&D, a couple of years back, did a prototype vehicle with extensive WI use. They took a 5.4L V8 9:1 CR 350lb/ft torque Ford Excursion, dropped the engine, changed out the pistons to change the engine to 16:1 CR. With extensive work/tuning, they were able to turn that car into a 540lb/ft of torque car and, most importantly, raise the fuel consumption from ~10mpg to 27mpg on 87octane. If that's not testament to what WI can do, I do not know what is. The problem is, that almost NO tuner I know can proeprly take advantage of WI while tuning a car to extract this much safety and efficacy out of what it can offer. BTW, this is NOT water/methanol setup, but a PURE 100% water setup. BTW, the WFR was 100%, which made it prohibitive for a general production car.
Sharif,
The Aquamist 2s and the full FJO setup DO allow you to do this without an EMS, albeit not in an elegant way that the EMS would allow.
MIA
Thanks for following up. This setup would need the whole setup MINUS the controller, so that it can include the nozzle/solenoid, pump, lines, mounting hardware, and tank. Basically, what Aquamist 2c kit includes.
To calrify, I am not talking about gain. Gain on this controller controls the rate of water flow relative to boost...that is a good thing..the more boost you run, the more air and fuel, the more water required. BUT, the flow of air/fuel increases with RPM, while with this setup the water does not. That's what i am pointing out. If you speak with Richard Lamb, the inventor of the Aquamist, he will reaffirm the importance of this point.
Also, Mia, on monitoring the WFR. There is NO way to do this directly, ala the wideband O2 sensor used for AFR monitoring. It must be calcualted and programmed into the injection controller. IT is a little sticky, but not too difficult to do. I can show you guys how if you'd like. The magic number is about 12.5-15% water-to-fuel ratio. Greater numbers can be used for greater protection and power gain, but the WI system MUST be elaborate to do that, with VERY good water droplet atomization. You pretty much reach the ABSOLUTE limit at 40-50% WFR, when you will experience bogging down due to too much water.
Anecdote: Ford R&D, a couple of years back, did a prototype vehicle with extensive WI use. They took a 5.4L V8 9:1 CR 350lb/ft torque Ford Excursion, dropped the engine, changed out the pistons to change the engine to 16:1 CR. With extensive work/tuning, they were able to turn that car into a 540lb/ft of torque car and, most importantly, raise the fuel consumption from ~10mpg to 27mpg on 87octane. If that's not testament to what WI can do, I do not know what is. The problem is, that almost NO tuner I know can proeprly take advantage of WI while tuning a car to extract this much safety and efficacy out of what it can offer. BTW, this is NOT water/methanol setup, but a PURE 100% water setup. BTW, the WFR was 100%, which made it prohibitive for a general production car.
Sharif,
The Aquamist 2s and the full FJO setup DO allow you to do this without an EMS, albeit not in an elegant way that the EMS would allow.
Last edited by MIAPLAYA; 04-02-2007 at 04:03 PM.
04-03-2007, 10:15 AM
#73
Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
wow Gurgen excellent info. The Spearco PM mentioned that the pump is actually the most expensive piece of that kit. The controller was second of course and the nozzles and fittings were 3rd. Maybe it would be worth it to just buy the whole kit and run the pump off your Fcon? MSRP is $541 for the kit but i'm sure Sharif or any other Turbonetics vendor could get it to you for far cheaper. As an FYI this kit can also be run off of the MAF sensor which maybe more what you are looking to do? I know the MAF sensor doesn't measure engine speed. But the controller does start pumping and adjusts threshold based on a standard 0-5V reading from either the MAF or MAP sensor. I suppose you might be able to convert a tach signal to a 0-5 V range or perhaps the Fcon can do that for you..
The problem is that the MAF maxes out at 6-8 psi and 4000rpm. Ifwe had a full range MAf, it would be an excellent continuous actuator of WI, but alas it's not the case on our cars (STi's EVos no problem).
Thanks for the info.
04-03-2007, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by GurgenPB
BTW, what is the psi/flow rating of the pump? thanks in advance.
Hope that helps...
04-03-2007, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by GurgenPB
Sorry I missed it. that was posted before. I was just trying to see the graph of psi vs flow. That can be constructed through the two data points given 310cc/6bar and 1000cc/3 bar.
Thanks
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