NEW:... Blown Head Gasket Analysis
10-05-2006, 04:51 PM
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NEW:... Blown Head Gasket Analysis
Alrighty, I wanted to post this to try and explain what has happened recently with my car.
I have been experiencing on occasion (i.e. under moderate to heavy boost) coolant spraying out from the reservoir and onto my windshield. After some calls and reviewing the engine temps, it was thought to be some air pockets in the system that needed to be flushed. When this occurred there was not a drastic increase in engine temps, so it was not figured to be a major problem. There was no white smoke from the exhausts, no noticeable change in the oil texture/color and I did not notice any apparent loss of coolant in the reservoir either.
Unfortunately this must have been warning signs from the engine… Yesterday morning, while running through the gears this occurred again, but the engine temps skyrocketed to the red H. And stayed there while I tried to limp the car to a parking space. After letting the car cool for a little and upon starting the car, white smoke was coming out of the exhaust. I was fortunate to be driving through Atlanta while this happened on my way to another AKA Rally. OK, I purposely was driving through here to have Sharif to check the car out before I put another 2k miles on it in 4 days.
I drove the car to Forged Performance and they started by reviewing the car for any major issues. After welding a couple of exhaust leaks, they started checking the fluids and noticed a large amount of whitish/grey gunk in the Oil Filler neck. They checked the coolant and also noticed a heavy fuel smell and some oily buildup.
SO, based on these observations the decision was the Engine popped and the engine was mixing coolant/water with the fuel/oil. At a minimum the headgasket was blown, and hopefully the block/heads were not warped. After some extensive discussions about my upcoming Rally and my tight schedule (I was only supposed to have the car checked out, not torn down.) it was decided that the engine had to come out and at a minimum the heads taken off to be checked for damage.
Sharif at Forged Performance agreed to put everyone in the shop on the car and work through the night to at least get the engine torn down to understand the overall damage. So with Chris and Devon working through the night, they dropped the driveline, tranny and engine. Then they proceeded to tear the engine down to the gaskets. Sometime around 10 PM we figured out at least 1 gasket was cut/damaged and I was fortunate to have caught this problem quickly as there was no apparent damage to the heads/short block. The Oil pan was covered in the gunk, it was coated all over the timing chain cover, burnt into gaskets and in the valve covers. Not a good sign but after some more checking it was decided there was not damage to the internals and the block/heads had not been warped.
So this morning the guys got right back on the car and started the reassembly process. We have had to replace the Oil Pump and to help prevent further overheating, added the cooling mod along with stiffer wastegate actuator springs and solid motor mounts.
The analysis is that a # of things probably caused the engine to fail. It was discovered that the upgraded ARP headstuds were not completely installed correctly and 2 of the studs were off by 1/16th of an inch. This not only caused the heads to fit VERY VERY tightly, but also pinched/pulled the headgasket causing an area that was not properly sealed. Before taking the heads off the torque was checked, with a torque wrench on the headstuds, and they were torqued to slightly different rates (Five of the bolts were between 80 – 90fts-lbs and the remainder were at 90fts-lbs). There was definitely air in the cooling system, which also was causing ‘hotspots’ on the heads and the crimped gasket was the most likely point of initial failure. One of the things noted was the very aggressive timing used under boost for a pump gas map (advanced around 19 – 22 degrees) which probably caused detonation. I expect we will make sure the timing is not more then +14 – 15 degrees for this tune.
So as we speak the goal is to finish getting the engine installed and get a base tune tonight. Then I am on the road to Maine by Friday night… LOTS and LOTS of driving in the next 24 hours.
I want to say thanks to Forged Performance, Sharif, Chris, Devon, Valerie and Sandy for putting up with me for the last 2 days. It has been absolute chaos trying to keep things organized for this Rally and trying to make the decisions necessary to get this all straightened out ASAP in order to get back on the Road and to the Rally.
Thanks for all the hard work and short turn around.
--B
I have been experiencing on occasion (i.e. under moderate to heavy boost) coolant spraying out from the reservoir and onto my windshield. After some calls and reviewing the engine temps, it was thought to be some air pockets in the system that needed to be flushed. When this occurred there was not a drastic increase in engine temps, so it was not figured to be a major problem. There was no white smoke from the exhausts, no noticeable change in the oil texture/color and I did not notice any apparent loss of coolant in the reservoir either.
Unfortunately this must have been warning signs from the engine… Yesterday morning, while running through the gears this occurred again, but the engine temps skyrocketed to the red H. And stayed there while I tried to limp the car to a parking space. After letting the car cool for a little and upon starting the car, white smoke was coming out of the exhaust. I was fortunate to be driving through Atlanta while this happened on my way to another AKA Rally. OK, I purposely was driving through here to have Sharif to check the car out before I put another 2k miles on it in 4 days.
I drove the car to Forged Performance and they started by reviewing the car for any major issues. After welding a couple of exhaust leaks, they started checking the fluids and noticed a large amount of whitish/grey gunk in the Oil Filler neck. They checked the coolant and also noticed a heavy fuel smell and some oily buildup.
SO, based on these observations the decision was the Engine popped and the engine was mixing coolant/water with the fuel/oil. At a minimum the headgasket was blown, and hopefully the block/heads were not warped. After some extensive discussions about my upcoming Rally and my tight schedule (I was only supposed to have the car checked out, not torn down.) it was decided that the engine had to come out and at a minimum the heads taken off to be checked for damage.
Sharif at Forged Performance agreed to put everyone in the shop on the car and work through the night to at least get the engine torn down to understand the overall damage. So with Chris and Devon working through the night, they dropped the driveline, tranny and engine. Then they proceeded to tear the engine down to the gaskets. Sometime around 10 PM we figured out at least 1 gasket was cut/damaged and I was fortunate to have caught this problem quickly as there was no apparent damage to the heads/short block. The Oil pan was covered in the gunk, it was coated all over the timing chain cover, burnt into gaskets and in the valve covers. Not a good sign but after some more checking it was decided there was not damage to the internals and the block/heads had not been warped.
So this morning the guys got right back on the car and started the reassembly process. We have had to replace the Oil Pump and to help prevent further overheating, added the cooling mod along with stiffer wastegate actuator springs and solid motor mounts.
The analysis is that a # of things probably caused the engine to fail. It was discovered that the upgraded ARP headstuds were not completely installed correctly and 2 of the studs were off by 1/16th of an inch. This not only caused the heads to fit VERY VERY tightly, but also pinched/pulled the headgasket causing an area that was not properly sealed. Before taking the heads off the torque was checked, with a torque wrench on the headstuds, and they were torqued to slightly different rates (Five of the bolts were between 80 – 90fts-lbs and the remainder were at 90fts-lbs). There was definitely air in the cooling system, which also was causing ‘hotspots’ on the heads and the crimped gasket was the most likely point of initial failure. One of the things noted was the very aggressive timing used under boost for a pump gas map (advanced around 19 – 22 degrees) which probably caused detonation. I expect we will make sure the timing is not more then +14 – 15 degrees for this tune.
So as we speak the goal is to finish getting the engine installed and get a base tune tonight. Then I am on the road to Maine by Friday night… LOTS and LOTS of driving in the next 24 hours.
I want to say thanks to Forged Performance, Sharif, Chris, Devon, Valerie and Sandy for putting up with me for the last 2 days. It has been absolute chaos trying to keep things organized for this Rally and trying to make the decisions necessary to get this all straightened out ASAP in order to get back on the Road and to the Rally.
Thanks for all the hard work and short turn around.
--B
10-05-2006, 11:07 PM
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After listening to it for a while it was figured out it was not piston slap, but on startup you are hearing the cam gears rattling. Once the oil pressure gets to it's normal pressure zone, the noise goes away.
I definitely think the coolant tank being that full was an indication of the air in the system. Not sure what else could have caused it. But at that point it was definitely not consuming any of the coolant.
As for the engine, it was assembled by AAM but was machined by Rockville Bearing, Cryo Treated by NitroFreeze, Ceramicly coated by Swain Tech and the heads were built by GT Motorsports. So the short answer is the engine was worked on by a # of companies.
Well, it is almost 3 am and Forged Performance is still up and working on getting my car straightened out so I can leave ASAP for this Rally…
--B
I definitely think the coolant tank being that full was an indication of the air in the system. Not sure what else could have caused it. But at that point it was definitely not consuming any of the coolant.
As for the engine, it was assembled by AAM but was machined by Rockville Bearing, Cryo Treated by NitroFreeze, Ceramicly coated by Swain Tech and the heads were built by GT Motorsports. So the short answer is the engine was worked on by a # of companies.
Well, it is almost 3 am and Forged Performance is still up and working on getting my car straightened out so I can leave ASAP for this Rally…
--B
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10-06-2006, 04:15 AM
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damn you sure do put up with alot. Im not going to lie if i had the bank roll you have i would have took everything off and sold it picked up a z06 did a supercharger and called it a day. But that just shows the love you have for the 350z.
10-06-2006, 04:51 AM
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Holy ****. Brent - you've got the patience of a saint. I think of the marginal headaches I've had with my car and then I look at you. No comparison. You're definitely committed. Be it good or bad, you still committed...
Hit me up when you get a chance.
-Ryan
Hit me up when you get a chance.
-Ryan
10-06-2006, 04:59 AM
#10
Originally Posted by BamBam
The analysis is that a # of things probably caused the engine to fail. It was discovered that the upgraded ARP headstuds were not completely installed correctly and 2 of the studs were off by 1/16th of an inch. This not only caused the heads to fit VERY VERY tightly, but also pinched/pulled the headgasket causing an area that was not properly sealed. Before taking the heads off the torque was checked, with a torque wrench on the headstuds, and they were torqued to slightly different rates (Five of the bolts were between 80 – 90fts-lbs and the remainder were at 90fts-lbs). There was definitely air in the cooling system, which also was causing ‘hotspots’ on the heads and the crimped gasket was the most likely point of initial failure. One of the things noted was the very aggressive timing used under boost for a pump gas map (advanced around 19 – 22 degrees) which probably caused detonation. I expect we will make sure the timing is not more then +14 – 15 degrees for this tune.
--B
Originally Posted by BamBam
it was assembled by AAM--B
10-06-2006, 05:26 AM
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Brent,
Sorry to heard about the head gasket.
Hopefully everything is good with the block, we stand behind our work and your engine (it was machined at a local machine shop we no longer use) and we will take care of her as necessary when you are back north.
Make sure Shariff does a tuning session on your car if you are going to be doing high throttle driving and/or a Ralley. When I flew down to Florda last Friday to check out your rich running / bad gas mileage my laptop was acting up, so we decided to decrease your fuel pressure a few pounds for optimium gas mileage on your trip home. We decided to do this because you said you would rather drive the car easy (no high rpms and high throttle runs) and drop her off when you got back in town. High throttle driving in that condition is likely to cause excessive coolant temps and/or head gasket problem. When a motor overheats it is common for the head bolt torque to then be more/less on different bolts.
I'll call Sharif to go over your setup to help with any pointers I can with the tuning, let him know the Knock-Amp is wired into the knock sensor and with all of your mods/super loud open dump exhaust make sure to use a set of headsets so that you can single out and listen effectively to the internal engine noise while tuning. I am not sure who recommended running 14deg. timing but at high rpm & load with the low comp motor is REALLY LOW! Sharif is a great guy so I feel confident he can help set you up properly for the ralley.
I'll give you a call in a little.
Mike
Sorry to heard about the head gasket.
Hopefully everything is good with the block, we stand behind our work and your engine (it was machined at a local machine shop we no longer use) and we will take care of her as necessary when you are back north.
Make sure Shariff does a tuning session on your car if you are going to be doing high throttle driving and/or a Ralley. When I flew down to Florda last Friday to check out your rich running / bad gas mileage my laptop was acting up, so we decided to decrease your fuel pressure a few pounds for optimium gas mileage on your trip home. We decided to do this because you said you would rather drive the car easy (no high rpms and high throttle runs) and drop her off when you got back in town. High throttle driving in that condition is likely to cause excessive coolant temps and/or head gasket problem. When a motor overheats it is common for the head bolt torque to then be more/less on different bolts.
I'll call Sharif to go over your setup to help with any pointers I can with the tuning, let him know the Knock-Amp is wired into the knock sensor and with all of your mods/super loud open dump exhaust make sure to use a set of headsets so that you can single out and listen effectively to the internal engine noise while tuning. I am not sure who recommended running 14deg. timing but at high rpm & load with the low comp motor is REALLY LOW! Sharif is a great guy so I feel confident he can help set you up properly for the ralley.
I'll give you a call in a little.
Mike
Last edited by Mike@Altered; 10-06-2006 at 05:55 AM.
10-06-2006, 05:44 AM
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Im sorry to hear this Bambam.
IMO, the decks of this motor should be inspected/tested by at least 2 parties before you bolt the heads on. Nothing less then 100.0000% perfectly flat. Ok, not that precise but you know.
IMO, the decks of this motor should be inspected/tested by at least 2 parties before you bolt the heads on. Nothing less then 100.0000% perfectly flat. Ok, not that precise but you know.
10-06-2006, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Enron Exec
Im sorry to hear this Bambam.
IMO, the decks of this motor should be inspected/tested by at least 2 parties before you bolt the heads on. Nothing less then 100.0000% perfectly flat...
IMO, the decks of this motor should be inspected/tested by at least 2 parties before you bolt the heads on. Nothing less then 100.0000% perfectly flat...
I am sure they checked the block for straightness as best as possible, and the heads with a dial indicator while they were off. We have a fixture here for our CNC Mill (w/ probing system) that allows us to use a percision dial indicator when inspecting for trueness.
Last edited by Mike@Altered; 10-06-2006 at 05:58 AM.
10-06-2006, 06:53 AM
#17
Originally Posted by Enron Exec
Im sorry to hear this Bambam.
IMO, the decks of this motor should be inspected/tested by at least 2 parties before you bolt the heads on. Nothing less then 100.0000% perfectly flat. Ok, not that precise but you know.
IMO, the decks of this motor should be inspected/tested by at least 2 parties before you bolt the heads on. Nothing less then 100.0000% perfectly flat. Ok, not that precise but you know.
Please forgive my lack of verbosity....we were here last night until 4:30am...then I drove him to the airport. Unfortuantely, the game ended, when we discovered a cracked/broken oil pressure regular inside the oil pan.
I have never seen that piece before in my life.
Last edited by Sharif@Forged; 10-06-2006 at 07:04 AM.
10-06-2006, 06:55 AM
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I honestly feel for you and hope that you will have everything straightened out. You shouldn't have to go through these problems. This doesn't look to good on AAM honestly. Don't take offense Mike, but if I were Brent I would probably ask you to pick up some of the bill from Forged seeing he prolly has spent around 25k with you guys..
10-06-2006, 07:16 AM
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I agree. We take care of everyone as fair and best as possible. Sometimes unexpected things happen.
Because of this we've already taken care of Brent BIG TIME and I plan to continue to do so!
Because of this we've already taken care of Brent BIG TIME and I plan to continue to do so!
10-06-2006, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike@Altered
I agree. We take care of everyone as fair and best as possible. Sometimes unexpected things happen.
Because of this we've already taken care of Brent BIG TIME and I plan to continue to do so!
Because of this we've already taken care of Brent BIG TIME and I plan to continue to do so!
You are an stand up guy for doing that.