My APS Extreme TT with built motor story...
01-04-2007, 06:11 AM
#181
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Originally Posted by lww
Ok... I've pretty much kept quite through 150+ posts in this thread, but I couldn't hold it in any longer...
Yes, it's very unfortunate that this happened, but the vitriolic posts are completely without merit and make me seriously question the credibility of the posters. Rob has been building and maintaining Z cars and their race variants since before he left Georgia.
The farther you push a motor beyond the originally designed operating paramaters, the higher the risk of failure. "Pushing the boundaries" by definition dramatically increases the potential for failure, sometimes catastrophically.
Yes, it's very unfortunate that this happened, but the vitriolic posts are completely without merit and make me seriously question the credibility of the posters. Rob has been building and maintaining Z cars and their race variants since before he left Georgia.
The farther you push a motor beyond the originally designed operating paramaters, the higher the risk of failure. "Pushing the boundaries" by definition dramatically increases the potential for failure, sometimes catastrophically.
his engine failed at safe boost levels for his setup
Originally Posted by lww
Any build that pushes the limit to this extreme, is, by definition an R&D project. EVERY motor, even of the same make, model and design, is different and sometimes, those differences are significant at the upper end of the power spectrum.
again he was going to push the engine to the extreme..he didn;t get sleeves nor 1/2" studs because he was going to try to go to extremes and test the limits of a build VQ with out sleeves..BUT the engine did not fail there...
so while i agree, this should not be an argument in what happened to Alex.
Originally Posted by lww
I personally know the owners of several 500+ rwhp Z's & G's that ZCG has built that the owners are extremely happy with, in addition to a number with "ONLY" 400+ rwhp builds. Anytime you take factory NA engineering and start to apply FI, the owner has to decide how close to the bleeding edge of reliability they are emotionally and financially willing to tolerate.
And also again... the engine failure did not occur at any extreme psi run.
Originally Posted by lww
A good analogy is playing the stock market. The higher the risk the greater the potential reward and potential disaster. Don't play unless you're willing to pay and potentially loose your investment.
Originally Posted by lww
Nitrous has a significant amount of money in this project, but that's in large part due to the way it has evolved. I do agree that you're better off sticking with a single shop, not because it avoids finger pointing, although that can be a nice side affect, but because that one shop will have intimate knowledge of every part of the build giving them insight into any problems that may crop up in the future.
Originally Posted by lww
I've never seen Rob deal in bad faith with a customer and also never seen him set a customers expectations un-realistically. When you play at this level, it takes a different kind of financial stability than what most people are exposed, willing or able to relate.
Originally Posted by lww
This is why most of the people that try a project like this, and can't do the work themselves, get in way over their head financially. This is also why the VAST majority of the FI VQ35 builds are to moderate HP and TQ levels. So someone of above average but still modest financial status has an opportunity to experience the joy and wonder of FI without sacrificing ALL their reliability/longevity. There's a reason race motors are frequently rebuilt here people.
Granted, I've only been playing with and racing Z cars for 21 years, so what the hell do I know...?
Granted, I've only been playing with and racing Z cars for 21 years, so what the hell do I know...?
i agree... it will take some poeple to with good budgets to take the vq to extreme setups and numbers, hopefully its nto more than 14 months until wee start seeing 800 whp Zs more =]
Originally Posted by lww
Nitrous has said that Rob has been working with him to help make it right in what Nitrous himself considers upstanding. Albeit, short of writing him a $100,000 personal check for his trouble. I know that upsets a lot of people, but they're most likely too young or too naive to have actually been exposed to the "real" world in any significant fashion.
Originally Posted by lww
The comment that ZCG is dying a slow death seems comical given the fact the next available appointment is in February and people are driving their cars from as much as a 1000 miles away to have Rob's team "fix" problems created or unfixable by other shops...
Originally Posted by lww
Nitrous, I hope you'll let us all know what you decide and, in the end, whether you felt you were dealt with fairly. This board is a great source of information and offer it's members an opportunity to hear a multitude of opinions regarding the quality and service they receive from various shops that support our hobby.
Cheers,
lww
Cheers,
lww
01-04-2007, 06:15 AM
#182
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Originally Posted by danisr1
I am not a tuner so i cant go into reasons why the utec did not work. Sharif put 3 different ones in the car and and the UTEC kept having RPM spikes on the logging while the car was not making them. Sharif could explain more if he chimes in again.
more info on this plz
at what powerand boost levels did that happen?
01-04-2007, 06:27 AM
#183
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
i dunno the shop but it sounds bad that he is being greddy by no helping him with doing any extra fixes/chagnes/additions to the engine at cost at least since its his engine that failed when the boundaries weren't pushed yet.... his engine failed at safe boost levels for his setup
I think everyone needs to take a deep breath, relax and let Alex work through his decision and give him a chance to work it out with the shops involved and report back before we pass judgement.
And in case anyone is curious, Jan. 12 is the 2 year anniversary of my project being off the road, so I am intimately familiar with the pain of a great car being side lined for an extended period, even if the end result is something spectacular!
My solution... buy ANOTHER Z to play with while the project is underway...
Last edited by lww; 01-04-2007 at 06:29 AM.
01-04-2007, 06:38 AM
#184
Originally Posted by GurgenPB
Sharif, I completely understand. But Alex was shooting for 800whp. I think it's definitely not a good idea to do standard size at this level; you would be playing with no safety margin at this level with stock size studs.
01-04-2007, 06:41 AM
#185
Originally Posted by danisr1
I am not a tuner so i cant go into reasons why the utec did not work. Sharif put 3 different ones in the car and and the UTEC kept having RPM spikes on the logging while the car was not making them. Sharif could explain more if he chimes in again.
Starts and idles like a champ now. Dansir....PM me.
01-04-2007, 07:32 AM
#186
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Originally Posted by lww
Since we don't know what help Alex is getting from Rob, it's really unfair to claim he's being greedy at this point especially since Nitrous has stated himself that Rob is working with him.
Originally Posted by lww
I think everyone needs to take a deep breath, relax and let Alex work through his decision and give him a chance to work it out with the shops involved and report back before we pass judgement.
I was not being harsh to the shop or going OT to say they are going down bla bla bla...
Originally Posted by lww
And in case anyone is curious, Jan. 12 is the 2 year anniversary of my project being off the road, so I am intimately familiar with the pain of a great car being side lined for an extended period, even if the end result is something spectacular!
Originally Posted by lww
My solution... buy ANOTHER Z to play with while the project is underway...
yes buy another car of course for DD...but a Z??? better to save the money instead of buying that second Z and put it on the motor.
I am sure alex has another car
01-04-2007, 07:36 AM
#187
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Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
FCON. Starts and idles like a champ now.
Dansir....PM me.
Starts and idles like a champ now. Dansir....PM me.
nothing less coudl be expected form the best and most expensive EMS for the Z
welll in any case i hope this doesnt start to put into peoples head that its a must to get fcon pro for 600-650whp....since generally most cars dont have the problems that the utec car on that particular car.
01-04-2007, 08:55 AM
#188
Can everyone please stop the bashing?
We don't know EXACTLY what's wrong yet. Until we do, can we not point fingers or bash people's shops yet? I know it's discouraging to have the engine let go at a moderate 18psi. Hell, this is me. But it is unfair to Rob and the crew for everyone to be pointed at them right now. We don't exactly know what's going on yet, and that's the bottom line.
Here's some facts of the story. I did not sleeve it in the first place because Rob told me I didn't need to, and he was very much against sleeving due to leaks and such. He said my stock block should handle it. Even though I asked him many times to see if we should sleeve it, he firmly said we should leave it the way it is I believed him. And until now, it was not a cylinder wall problem yet. So nothing has proven him wrong yet.
My car was not worked at NUMEROUS shops. I bought some of the vital engine components from Sharif, which was all smooth of course. my car was built by Zcar (or a sublet of Zcar). And tuned at GTM because Zcar does not have the software to tune the Fcon.
So, in a nutshell...I drove my car to Zcar. Dropped it off. 4 months later, picked her up and drove to GTM for a tune. And this occurred.
Until we can verify what exactly it is, please stop bashing on certain people. This is all getting personal. I appreciate those of you who are supporting me, but supporting me does not mean bashing others. Rob is a great guy. He is still trying to work with me. He's offering for me to get the car back to him for him to strip down at low cost, and see what's going on. And if we have to re-do it and sleeve it, we will, but of course I'll be charged for it. And that's the part I don't know if I can deal with, is to have the same engine builder touch my block again. So Rob is willing to help, but I'm still deciding on what I should do.
So please guys...no need to knock Zcar right now. They're great guys if you get to know them. Everyone one of them. They're just Z lovers like us, trying to make an honest living.
let's direct our focus onto the problem itself shall we? Until the block is torn out, we won't know EXACTLY what's going on.
We don't know EXACTLY what's wrong yet. Until we do, can we not point fingers or bash people's shops yet? I know it's discouraging to have the engine let go at a moderate 18psi. Hell, this is me. But it is unfair to Rob and the crew for everyone to be pointed at them right now. We don't exactly know what's going on yet, and that's the bottom line.
Here's some facts of the story. I did not sleeve it in the first place because Rob told me I didn't need to, and he was very much against sleeving due to leaks and such. He said my stock block should handle it. Even though I asked him many times to see if we should sleeve it, he firmly said we should leave it the way it is I believed him. And until now, it was not a cylinder wall problem yet. So nothing has proven him wrong yet.
My car was not worked at NUMEROUS shops. I bought some of the vital engine components from Sharif, which was all smooth of course. my car was built by Zcar (or a sublet of Zcar). And tuned at GTM because Zcar does not have the software to tune the Fcon.
So, in a nutshell...I drove my car to Zcar. Dropped it off. 4 months later, picked her up and drove to GTM for a tune. And this occurred.
Until we can verify what exactly it is, please stop bashing on certain people. This is all getting personal. I appreciate those of you who are supporting me, but supporting me does not mean bashing others. Rob is a great guy. He is still trying to work with me. He's offering for me to get the car back to him for him to strip down at low cost, and see what's going on. And if we have to re-do it and sleeve it, we will, but of course I'll be charged for it. And that's the part I don't know if I can deal with, is to have the same engine builder touch my block again. So Rob is willing to help, but I'm still deciding on what I should do.
So please guys...no need to knock Zcar right now. They're great guys if you get to know them. Everyone one of them. They're just Z lovers like us, trying to make an honest living.
let's direct our focus onto the problem itself shall we? Until the block is torn out, we won't know EXACTLY what's going on.
01-04-2007, 09:05 AM
#189
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
nothing less coudl be expected form the best and most expensive EMS for the Z
welll in any case i hope this doesnt start to put into peoples head that its a must to get fcon pro for 600-650whp....since generally most cars dont have the problems that the utec car on that particular car.
welll in any case i hope this doesnt start to put into peoples head that its a must to get fcon pro for 600-650whp....since generally most cars dont have the problems that the utec car on that particular car.
Nitrouz just curious why did zcar not tune it?
Last edited by wtf no turbo; 01-04-2007 at 09:12 AM.
01-04-2007, 09:30 AM
#190
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Let's see, we have parts from Sharif, a machine shop in San Jose, and Z-Car Garage involved in this project. Now, there's a problem and what is Sharif going to say?
That's right: "Not my fault, we haven't had any failures, best parts money can buy". I get it. That's what I'd say.
What's the machine-shop going to say?: "Bring me the block and let's see what's going on" Makes sense.
What's Z-Car Garage going to say? "Bring the car back to us, so we can try to remedy the problem". Duh!
BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT'S GOING ON HERE.
No shop in their right mind is going to say "take it to another shop and let them fix it and send us the bill". The world just doesn't work that way.
I re-read this entire thread last night and Nitrouz never said that Z-Car garage(the builder) told him they wouldn't help him out. No offense to GT Motorsports, but every other shop is going to have a financial stake in re-building Alexs' motor, so it's not like they're a disinterested party.
As for Z-Car Garage, they treated me right, communicated very well, and did exactly what they said they were going to do. When they finished my car, it dyno'd 561.89whp/563.81tq.@17lbs. 'Nuff said.
That's right: "Not my fault, we haven't had any failures, best parts money can buy". I get it. That's what I'd say.
What's the machine-shop going to say?: "Bring me the block and let's see what's going on" Makes sense.
What's Z-Car Garage going to say? "Bring the car back to us, so we can try to remedy the problem". Duh!
BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT'S GOING ON HERE.
No shop in their right mind is going to say "take it to another shop and let them fix it and send us the bill". The world just doesn't work that way.
I re-read this entire thread last night and Nitrouz never said that Z-Car garage(the builder) told him they wouldn't help him out. No offense to GT Motorsports, but every other shop is going to have a financial stake in re-building Alexs' motor, so it's not like they're a disinterested party.
As for Z-Car Garage, they treated me right, communicated very well, and did exactly what they said they were going to do. When they finished my car, it dyno'd 561.89whp/563.81tq.@17lbs. 'Nuff said.
01-04-2007, 09:43 AM
#191
Originally Posted by RedLeader
Let's see, we have parts from Sharif, a machine shop in San Jose, and Z-Car Garage involved in this project. Now, there's a problem and what is Sharif going to say?
That's right: "Not my fault, we haven't had any failures, best parts money can buy". I get it. That's what I'd say.
What's the machine-shop going to say?: "Bring me the block and let's see what's going on" Makes sense.
What's Z-Car Garage going to say? "Bring the car back to us, so we can try to remedy the problem". Duh!
BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT'S GOING ON HERE.
No shop in their right mind is going to say "take it to another shop and let them fix it and send us the bill". The world just doesn't work that way.
I re-read this entire thread last night and Nitrouz never said that Z-Car garage(the builder) told him they wouldn't help him out. No offense to GT Motorsports, but every other shop is going to have a financial stake in re-building Alexs' motor, so it's not like they're a disinterested party.
As for Z-Car Garage, they treated me right, communicated very well, and did exactly what they said they were going to do. When they finished my car, it dyno'd 561.89whp/563.81tq.@17lbs. 'Nuff said.
That's right: "Not my fault, we haven't had any failures, best parts money can buy". I get it. That's what I'd say.
What's the machine-shop going to say?: "Bring me the block and let's see what's going on" Makes sense.
What's Z-Car Garage going to say? "Bring the car back to us, so we can try to remedy the problem". Duh!
BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT'S GOING ON HERE.
No shop in their right mind is going to say "take it to another shop and let them fix it and send us the bill". The world just doesn't work that way.
I re-read this entire thread last night and Nitrouz never said that Z-Car garage(the builder) told him they wouldn't help him out. No offense to GT Motorsports, but every other shop is going to have a financial stake in re-building Alexs' motor, so it's not like they're a disinterested party.
As for Z-Car Garage, they treated me right, communicated very well, and did exactly what they said they were going to do. When they finished my car, it dyno'd 561.89whp/563.81tq.@17lbs. 'Nuff said.
01-04-2007, 10:06 AM
#192
Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
nothing less coudl be expected form the best and most expensive EMS for the Z
welll in any case i hope this doesnt start to put into peoples head that its a must to get fcon pro for 600-650whp....since generally most cars dont have the problems that the utec car on that particular car.
welll in any case i hope this doesnt start to put into peoples head that its a must to get fcon pro for 600-650whp....since generally most cars dont have the problems that the utec car on that particular car.
01-04-2007, 10:06 AM
#193
Originally Posted by wtf no turbo
I guess no one answered the phone for FI that day. The UTEC is far more difficult to set up no doubt.
Nitrouz just curious why did zcar not tune it?
Nitrouz just curious why did zcar not tune it?
01-04-2007, 10:17 AM
#195
Originally Posted by RedLeader
No Alex. I hadn't read your post while I was writing mine. Thanks for putting everything in perspective.
Bruce
Bruce
Again, I hope people stop bagging on Rob and the Zcar crew. They helped me through the ups and downs, and trust me, we had quite a few during my build. This is the last bit of the build, and unfortunately this happened. But hopefully we'll get to know what's going on.
As I said to bambam in one of our PM's in regards to our situations... This is getting very political. And it's a nightmare for any enthusiast pushing to the ultimate limits of modifications. This is hard on everyone. But I'm keeping this thread alive so people can tune in on what's going on, adding to the experiences I've had.
No one deserves to be hit right now. Not me, not Sam, not Rob, not Sharif. Let's keep it at that for now.
01-04-2007, 10:25 AM
#196
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Originally Posted by Sam@GTM
UTEC can not be used with the aps extreme fuel system, aps extreme uses peak and hold injectors ,witch uteck will not control and do you want to relay use maf scaling on 880 cc injectors at idle .
IC thanks for the info Sam =]
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 01-04-2007 at 10:28 AM.
01-04-2007, 10:30 AM
#197
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Originally Posted by Nitrouz
No problem.
Again, I hope people stop bagging on Rob and the Zcar crew. They helped me through the ups and downs, and trust me, we had quite a few during my build. This is the last bit of the build, and unfortunately this happened. But hopefully we'll get to know what's going on.
As I said to bambam in one of our PM's in regards to our situations... This is getting very political. And it's a nightmare for any enthusiast pushing to the ultimate limits of modifications. This is hard on everyone. But I'm keeping this thread alive so people can tune in on what's going on, adding to the experiences I've had.
No one deserves to be hit right now. Not me, not Sam, not Rob, not Sharif. Let's keep it at that for now.
Again, I hope people stop bagging on Rob and the Zcar crew. They helped me through the ups and downs, and trust me, we had quite a few during my build. This is the last bit of the build, and unfortunately this happened. But hopefully we'll get to know what's going on.
As I said to bambam in one of our PM's in regards to our situations... This is getting very political. And it's a nightmare for any enthusiast pushing to the ultimate limits of modifications. This is hard on everyone. But I'm keeping this thread alive so people can tune in on what's going on, adding to the experiences I've had.
No one deserves to be hit right now. Not me, not Sam, not Rob, not Sharif. Let's keep it at that for now.
01-04-2007, 11:06 AM
#199
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I hate to see a well known shop being bashed like this for no reason. As far as I can remember ZCG and Rob have only had good things said about them. I see no reason to discredit them now...
Having said that I've always wondered if someone could screw up the tuning by accidently leaning it out(or by adjusting some other variable) thus causing your engine to ultimately fail. Hmmmm...it certainly makes you think. I'm not saying thats what happened, but I don't see why it couldn't. I mean all they would have to do is blame it on the engine builder, bc its not like a lot people are there when their cars are getting tuned. Maybe its a scam to get them to spend more money on their shop, especially when they know your loaded....
Anyways the point is the blame could go to a number of people. I don't know Rob or anyone at ZCarG, but I definitely think they are being treated unfairly, considering they are at least doing something for Nitrouz...
Having said that I've always wondered if someone could screw up the tuning by accidently leaning it out(or by adjusting some other variable) thus causing your engine to ultimately fail. Hmmmm...it certainly makes you think. I'm not saying thats what happened, but I don't see why it couldn't. I mean all they would have to do is blame it on the engine builder, bc its not like a lot people are there when their cars are getting tuned. Maybe its a scam to get them to spend more money on their shop, especially when they know your loaded....
Anyways the point is the blame could go to a number of people. I don't know Rob or anyone at ZCarG, but I definitely think they are being treated unfairly, considering they are at least doing something for Nitrouz...
01-04-2007, 11:34 AM
#200
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Originally Posted by Nitrouz
Thanks man...but I'm still thinking since I'll have no financial support from any of the shops or companies I dealt with.