My APS Extreme TT with built motor story...
01-03-2007, 10:59 AM
#162
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Holland,MI
Posts: 486
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by danisr1
How could the motor builder not step up to the plate? I feel your pain. I have the APS Ext system too and am having my share of issues with it as well.
01-03-2007, 11:10 AM
#163
I saw your car at forged when i got mine tuned. Exhaust leaks are my biggest issue right now and getting them fixed is very labor intensive. I am sending the car back up to forged to get the issue fixed for good. I had one of the first ext systems and there is a rumor of a bad fuel return system as well. I will keep you posted via pm if you want. Good thing you are getting an fcon i tried the utec and it would not work, so i ended up with the fcon. your in good hands with sharif, great guy.
01-03-2007, 11:18 AM
#164
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Holland,MI
Posts: 486
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by danisr1
I saw your car at forged when i got mine tuned. Exhaust leaks are my biggest issue right now and getting them fixed is very labor intensive. I am sending the car back up to forged to get the issue fixed for good. I had one of the first ext systems and there is a rumor of a bad fuel return system as well. I will keep you posted via pm if you want. Good thing you are getting an fcon i tried the utec and it would not work, so i ended up with the fcon. your in good hands with sharif, great guy.
01-03-2007, 01:58 PM
#166
I'm going to make it brief in the interest of not hijacking the thread even further. Suffice it to say, that ZCG is doomed, period. Mark my words! All it takes is a one public quagmire where the shop is obvously WRONG, as is the case here, indisputably so.
Even if you disagree with the above, I pose one simple question to Rob, who i'd challenge to come on this board and answer publicly. If you are installing a turbo kit that is capable of flowing 100cfm of air total and really should be run at very high boost levels (other wise there is no point in getting the kit), why would you run stock size head studs L19 studs? This is one of many questions to which there simply cannot be a compitent answer to from ZCG. This is why it's over for them.
Even if you disagree with the above, I pose one simple question to Rob, who i'd challenge to come on this board and answer publicly. If you are installing a turbo kit that is capable of flowing 100cfm of air total and really should be run at very high boost levels (other wise there is no point in getting the kit), why would you run stock size head studs L19 studs? This is one of many questions to which there simply cannot be a compitent answer to from ZCG. This is why it's over for them.
01-03-2007, 02:25 PM
#167
Originally Posted by GurgenPB
I'm going to make it brief in the interest of not hijacking the thread even further. Suffice it to say, that ZCG is doomed, period. Mark my words! All it takes is a one public quagmire where the shop is obvously WRONG, as is the case here, indisputably so.
Even if you disagree with the above, I pose one simple question to Rob, who i'd challenge to come on this board and answer publicly. If you are installing a turbo kit that is capable of flowing 100cfm of air total and really should be run at very high boost levels (other wise there is no point in getting the kit), why would you run stock size head studs L19 studs? This is one of many questions to which there simply cannot be a compitent answer to from ZCG. This is why it's over for them.
Even if you disagree with the above, I pose one simple question to Rob, who i'd challenge to come on this board and answer publicly. If you are installing a turbo kit that is capable of flowing 100cfm of air total and really should be run at very high boost levels (other wise there is no point in getting the kit), why would you run stock size head studs L19 studs? This is one of many questions to which there simply cannot be a compitent answer to from ZCG. This is why it's over for them.
Only time will tell, as to the limits of L19, but they certainly are very capable pieces. I am sure the 14mm studs work just as well, as we have used them many times before....such as Alberto's engine, BCarter's..etc...etc.
If the plan was 800whp, then I would have probably erred on the side of caution, and done the 14mm or 1/2 inch stud upgrade...but i am still waiting for sometime to make 800whp certified and true whp, without nitrous or a stroker kit.
Last edited by Sharif@Forged; 01-03-2007 at 02:28 PM.
01-03-2007, 02:42 PM
#168
Registered User
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: maryland
Posts: 552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by GurgenPB
Unfortunately this is all you can expect from this chicken **** Rob.
Shops like this from my experience, and believe me i have perhaps the greatest experience with ALL/ANY shops in CA (NorCal and SoCal) represent the status quo in this industry. Why? NO one wants to take pride in their work, invests as little as possible into their shop, their knowledge, and the work itself for the highest possible return... with one huge exception - GTM. tha'ts why like it was mentioned above, GTM is the ONLY way to go.... and we arelucky to have them in calif. And I mean TRULY the only way to go. With VERY few exceptions, you either have to go to GTM or NOT do it at all.
Shops like this from my experience, and believe me i have perhaps the greatest experience with ALL/ANY shops in CA (NorCal and SoCal) represent the status quo in this industry. Why? NO one wants to take pride in their work, invests as little as possible into their shop, their knowledge, and the work itself for the highest possible return... with one huge exception - GTM. tha'ts why like it was mentioned above, GTM is the ONLY way to go.... and we arelucky to have them in calif. And I mean TRULY the only way to go. With VERY few exceptions, you either have to go to GTM or NOT do it at all.
Last edited by wtf no turbo; 01-03-2007 at 02:46 PM.
01-03-2007, 02:50 PM
#170
Registered User
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: maryland
Posts: 552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by danisr1
I saw your car at forged when i got mine tuned. Exhaust leaks are my biggest issue right now and getting them fixed is very labor intensive. I am sending the car back up to forged to get the issue fixed for good. I had one of the first ext systems and there is a rumor of a bad fuel return system as well. I will keep you posted via pm if you want. Good thing you are getting an fcon i tried the utec and it would not work, so i ended up with the fcon. your in good hands with sharif, great guy.
01-03-2007, 03:19 PM
#171
New Member
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Linn, OR
Posts: 762
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is it a full moon? The "experts" are coming out in force
Okay kids, it's time to stop the insanity. It's great that the forum gives everyone the opportunity to type their opinion, but you know the old saying: Opinions are like *ssh*les--everyone has one.
Let's deal with reality.
1)When you build a motor and have a problem, you take it back to the builder to give him the opportunity to "make it right". Has this been done? NO
2)Unless you have x-ray vision, how can you be 100% certain what the problem is until the motor is disassembled? YOU CAN'T
3)I thought Alexs' car made over 500whp at 15psi without problems? If you turn up the boost to 17psi+ and suddenly have problems, isn't it possible the non-sleeved cylinders are deforming? (Just one theory)
4)Where are all the 700whp cars? If you're building a high horsepower Z, you're still charting new territory. Remember, BigBri and Marleuccis cars weren't REALLY making 700+...
I drove 700 miles to take my car to Z-Car Garage and drove home a 562whp everyday driver. It has 25,000 miles on it and has never had a problem.
There were people telling Alex to sue somebody clear back in the first couple of pages of this thread. How about getting the facts straight, first?
Peace
Let's deal with reality.
1)When you build a motor and have a problem, you take it back to the builder to give him the opportunity to "make it right". Has this been done? NO
2)Unless you have x-ray vision, how can you be 100% certain what the problem is until the motor is disassembled? YOU CAN'T
3)I thought Alexs' car made over 500whp at 15psi without problems? If you turn up the boost to 17psi+ and suddenly have problems, isn't it possible the non-sleeved cylinders are deforming? (Just one theory)
4)Where are all the 700whp cars? If you're building a high horsepower Z, you're still charting new territory. Remember, BigBri and Marleuccis cars weren't REALLY making 700+...
I drove 700 miles to take my car to Z-Car Garage and drove home a 562whp everyday driver. It has 25,000 miles on it and has never had a problem.
There were people telling Alex to sue somebody clear back in the first couple of pages of this thread. How about getting the facts straight, first?
Peace
01-03-2007, 03:36 PM
#172
I'm always the last one to learn about the big news. Sorry to hear about all this **** Alex.
I'm afraid maybe you're being too nice of a guy, and it's time to start busting some ***** until you get a comparable working motor for free. Don't motor builders have any kind of insurance? They can't just build and pray for every car, can they?
I can understand wanting to get rid of the Z at this point. There's nothing wrong with folding when you have sh1tty cards, regardless of how much you've spent already. The decision is all yours. Don't take it lightly.
I'm afraid maybe you're being too nice of a guy, and it's time to start busting some ***** until you get a comparable working motor for free. Don't motor builders have any kind of insurance? They can't just build and pray for every car, can they?
I can understand wanting to get rid of the Z at this point. There's nothing wrong with folding when you have sh1tty cards, regardless of how much you've spent already. The decision is all yours. Don't take it lightly.
01-03-2007, 05:19 PM
#173
Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
The L19 studs are terrific. We are using them on my car, and many others at 600whp+...and basically maxing out these kits. No issues at all with headlift. Three weekends ago, I spent two day at Road Atlanta, and absolutely beat the **** out of my car....ran like a champ for over 4 hours of track time. Only time will tell, as to the limits of L19, but they certainly are very capable pieces.
I am sure the 14mm studs work just as well, as we have used them many times before....such as Alberto's engine, BCarter's..etc...etc.
If the plan was 800whp, then I would have probably erred on the side of caution, and done the 14mm or 1/2 inch stud upgrade...but i am still waiting for sometime to make 800whp certified and true whp, without nitrous or a stroker kit.
Only time will tell, as to the limits of L19, but they certainly are very capable pieces. I am sure the 14mm studs work just as well, as we have used them many times before....such as Alberto's engine, BCarter's..etc...etc.
If the plan was 800whp, then I would have probably erred on the side of caution, and done the 14mm or 1/2 inch stud upgrade...but i am still waiting for sometime to make 800whp certified and true whp, without nitrous or a stroker kit.
01-03-2007, 05:30 PM
#174
Reading over by remarks, I do want to say that saying 'chicken****' was definitely not called for, as it implies a personal attack. I only mean to voice my opinion of the shop and what they did to Alex and not Rob personally. To this end... my apologies.
01-03-2007, 08:59 PM
#176
Registered User
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok... I've pretty much kept quite through 150+ posts in this thread, but I couldn't hold it in any longer...
Yes, it's very unfortunate that this happened, but the vitriolic posts are completely without merit and make me seriously question the credibility of the posters. Rob has been building and maintaining Z cars and their race variants since before he left Georgia.
The farther you push a motor beyond the originally designed operating paramaters, the higher the risk of failure. "Pushing the boundaries" by definition dramatically increases the potential for failure, sometimes catastrophically.
Any build that pushes the limit to this extreme, is, by definition an R&D project. EVERY motor, even of the same make, model and design, is different and sometimes, those differences are significant at the upper end of the power spectrum.
I personally know the owners of several 500+ rwhp Z's & G's that ZCG has built that the owners are extremely happy with, in addition to a number with "ONLY" 400+ rwhp builds. Anytime you take factory NA engineering and start to apply FI, the owner has to decide how close to the bleeding edge of reliability they are emotionally and financially willing to tolerate.
A good analogy is playing the stock market. The higher the risk the greater the potential reward and potential disaster. Don't play unless you're willing to pay and potentially loose your investment.
Nitrous has a significant amount of money in this project, but that's in large part due to the way it has evolved. I do agree that you're better off sticking with a single shop, not because it avoids finger pointing, although that can be a nice side affect, but because that one shop will have intimate knowledge of every part of the build giving them insight into any problems that may crop up in the future.
I've never seen Rob deal in bad faith with a customer and also never seen him set a customers expectations un-realistically. When you play at this level, it takes a different kind of financial stability than what most people are exposed, willing or able to relate.
This is why most of the people that try a project like this, and can't do the work themselves, get in way over their head financially. This is also why the VAST majority of the FI VQ35 builds are to moderate HP and TQ levels. So someone of above average but still modest financial status has an opportunity to experience the joy and wonder of FI without sacrificing ALL their reliability/longevity. There's a reason race motors are frequently rebuilt here people.
Granted, I've only been playing with and racing Z cars for 21 years, so what the hell do I know...?
Nitrous has said that Rob has been working with him to help make it right in what Nitrous himself considers upstanding. Albeit, short of writing him a $100,000 personal check for his trouble. I know that upsets a lot of people, but they're most likely too young or too naive to have actually been exposed to the "real" world in any significant fashion.
The comment that ZCG is dying a slow death seems comical given the fact the next available appointment is in February and people are driving their cars from as much as a 1000 miles away to have Rob's team "fix" problems created or unfixable by other shops...
Nitrous, I hope you'll let us all know what you decide and, in the end, whether you felt you were dealt with fairly. This board is a great source of information and offer it's members an opportunity to hear a multitude of opinions regarding the quality and service they receive from various shops that support our hobby.
Cheers,
lww
Yes, it's very unfortunate that this happened, but the vitriolic posts are completely without merit and make me seriously question the credibility of the posters. Rob has been building and maintaining Z cars and their race variants since before he left Georgia.
The farther you push a motor beyond the originally designed operating paramaters, the higher the risk of failure. "Pushing the boundaries" by definition dramatically increases the potential for failure, sometimes catastrophically.
Any build that pushes the limit to this extreme, is, by definition an R&D project. EVERY motor, even of the same make, model and design, is different and sometimes, those differences are significant at the upper end of the power spectrum.
I personally know the owners of several 500+ rwhp Z's & G's that ZCG has built that the owners are extremely happy with, in addition to a number with "ONLY" 400+ rwhp builds. Anytime you take factory NA engineering and start to apply FI, the owner has to decide how close to the bleeding edge of reliability they are emotionally and financially willing to tolerate.
A good analogy is playing the stock market. The higher the risk the greater the potential reward and potential disaster. Don't play unless you're willing to pay and potentially loose your investment.
Nitrous has a significant amount of money in this project, but that's in large part due to the way it has evolved. I do agree that you're better off sticking with a single shop, not because it avoids finger pointing, although that can be a nice side affect, but because that one shop will have intimate knowledge of every part of the build giving them insight into any problems that may crop up in the future.
I've never seen Rob deal in bad faith with a customer and also never seen him set a customers expectations un-realistically. When you play at this level, it takes a different kind of financial stability than what most people are exposed, willing or able to relate.
This is why most of the people that try a project like this, and can't do the work themselves, get in way over their head financially. This is also why the VAST majority of the FI VQ35 builds are to moderate HP and TQ levels. So someone of above average but still modest financial status has an opportunity to experience the joy and wonder of FI without sacrificing ALL their reliability/longevity. There's a reason race motors are frequently rebuilt here people.
Granted, I've only been playing with and racing Z cars for 21 years, so what the hell do I know...?
Nitrous has said that Rob has been working with him to help make it right in what Nitrous himself considers upstanding. Albeit, short of writing him a $100,000 personal check for his trouble. I know that upsets a lot of people, but they're most likely too young or too naive to have actually been exposed to the "real" world in any significant fashion.
The comment that ZCG is dying a slow death seems comical given the fact the next available appointment is in February and people are driving their cars from as much as a 1000 miles away to have Rob's team "fix" problems created or unfixable by other shops...
Nitrous, I hope you'll let us all know what you decide and, in the end, whether you felt you were dealt with fairly. This board is a great source of information and offer it's members an opportunity to hear a multitude of opinions regarding the quality and service they receive from various shops that support our hobby.
Cheers,
lww
Last edited by lww; 01-03-2007 at 09:14 PM.
01-03-2007, 09:40 PM
#177
Registered User
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: maryland
Posts: 552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All that taken in stride. Now to get to the point, your saying that motor let go because of a tuning error? I understand that you assume certain risk pushing stock bottom ends but that build should have no problems running the 15 or 17 psi they allegedly tuned it for.
01-03-2007, 10:09 PM
#178
Registered User
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Since I don't have first hand knowledge of the facts, I wasn't passing judgment on any of the multitude of shops that worked on Nitrous' car, with the exception of offering my own opinion of ZCG.
I was merely trying to help some people understand what's involved in a build of this nature and the blithe calls for lawsuits and demands for free motors is most likely unreasonable.
If it can be shown that those involved dealt with Nitrous in bad faith, then that may be a reasonable thing to do. At this point, I don't believe that's the case. Any court is going to require the plaintiff give the involved parties a reasonable opportunity to resolve the problem. Everyone that was calling for a lawsuit has clearly never been involved in one and is ignorant of how our legal system works in civil matters, Boston Legal/Shark/whatever crap legal show on TV not withstanding. About the only accurate representation of our judicial system on TV is COPS! and for obvious reasons, that show stops short of showing the tedious legal proceedings that come after the actual criminal capture.
I was merely trying to help some people understand what's involved in a build of this nature and the blithe calls for lawsuits and demands for free motors is most likely unreasonable.
If it can be shown that those involved dealt with Nitrous in bad faith, then that may be a reasonable thing to do. At this point, I don't believe that's the case. Any court is going to require the plaintiff give the involved parties a reasonable opportunity to resolve the problem. Everyone that was calling for a lawsuit has clearly never been involved in one and is ignorant of how our legal system works in civil matters, Boston Legal/Shark/whatever crap legal show on TV not withstanding. About the only accurate representation of our judicial system on TV is COPS! and for obvious reasons, that show stops short of showing the tedious legal proceedings that come after the actual criminal capture.
Last edited by lww; 01-03-2007 at 10:14 PM.
01-03-2007, 11:28 PM
#179
VERTEX Army CEO
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 7,408
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by lww
Ok... I've pretty much kept quite through 150+ posts in this thread, but I couldn't hold it in any longer...
Yes, it's very unfortunate that this happened, but the vitriolic posts are completely without merit and make me seriously question the credibility of the posters. Rob has been building and maintaining Z cars and their race variants since before he left Georgia.
The farther you push a motor beyond the originally designed operating paramaters, the higher the risk of failure. "Pushing the boundaries" by definition dramatically increases the potential for failure, sometimes catastrophically.
Any build that pushes the limit to this extreme, is, by definition an R&D project. EVERY motor, even of the same make, model and design, is different and sometimes, those differences are significant at the upper end of the power spectrum.
I personally know the owners of several 500+ rwhp Z's & G's that ZCG has built that the owners are extremely happy with, in addition to a number with "ONLY" 400+ rwhp builds. Anytime you take factory NA engineering and start to apply FI, the owner has to decide how close to the bleeding edge of reliability they are emotionally and financially willing to tolerate.
A good analogy is playing the stock market. The higher the risk the greater the potential reward and potential disaster. Don't play unless you're willing to pay and potentially loose your investment.
Nitrous has a significant amount of money in this project, but that's in large part due to the way it has evolved. I do agree that you're better off sticking with a single shop, not because it avoids finger pointing, although that can be a nice side affect, but because that one shop will have intimate knowledge of every part of the build giving them insight into any problems that may crop up in the future.
I've never seen Rob deal in bad faith with a customer and also never seen him set a customers expectations un-realistically. When you play at this level, it takes a different kind of financial stability than what most people are exposed, willing or able to relate.
This is why most of the people that try a project like this, and can't do the work themselves, get in way over their head financially. This is also why the VAST majority of the FI VQ35 builds are to moderate HP and TQ levels. So someone of above average but still modest financial status has an opportunity to experience the joy and wonder of FI without sacrificing ALL their reliability/longevity. There's a reason race motors are frequently rebuilt here people.
Granted, I've only been playing with and racing Z cars for 21 years, so what the hell do I know...?
Nitrous has said that Rob has been working with him to help make it right in what Nitrous himself considers upstanding. Albeit, short of writing him a $100,000 personal check for his trouble. I know that upsets a lot of people, but they're most likely too young or too naive to have actually been exposed to the "real" world in any significant fashion.
The comment that ZCG is dying a slow death seems comical given the fact the next available appointment is in February and people are driving their cars from as much as a 1000 miles away to have Rob's team "fix" problems created or unfixable by other shops...
Nitrous, I hope you'll let us all know what you decide and, in the end, whether you felt you were dealt with fairly. This board is a great source of information and offer it's members an opportunity to hear a multitude of opinions regarding the quality and service they receive from various shops that support our hobby.
Cheers,
lww
Yes, it's very unfortunate that this happened, but the vitriolic posts are completely without merit and make me seriously question the credibility of the posters. Rob has been building and maintaining Z cars and their race variants since before he left Georgia.
The farther you push a motor beyond the originally designed operating paramaters, the higher the risk of failure. "Pushing the boundaries" by definition dramatically increases the potential for failure, sometimes catastrophically.
Any build that pushes the limit to this extreme, is, by definition an R&D project. EVERY motor, even of the same make, model and design, is different and sometimes, those differences are significant at the upper end of the power spectrum.
I personally know the owners of several 500+ rwhp Z's & G's that ZCG has built that the owners are extremely happy with, in addition to a number with "ONLY" 400+ rwhp builds. Anytime you take factory NA engineering and start to apply FI, the owner has to decide how close to the bleeding edge of reliability they are emotionally and financially willing to tolerate.
A good analogy is playing the stock market. The higher the risk the greater the potential reward and potential disaster. Don't play unless you're willing to pay and potentially loose your investment.
Nitrous has a significant amount of money in this project, but that's in large part due to the way it has evolved. I do agree that you're better off sticking with a single shop, not because it avoids finger pointing, although that can be a nice side affect, but because that one shop will have intimate knowledge of every part of the build giving them insight into any problems that may crop up in the future.
I've never seen Rob deal in bad faith with a customer and also never seen him set a customers expectations un-realistically. When you play at this level, it takes a different kind of financial stability than what most people are exposed, willing or able to relate.
This is why most of the people that try a project like this, and can't do the work themselves, get in way over their head financially. This is also why the VAST majority of the FI VQ35 builds are to moderate HP and TQ levels. So someone of above average but still modest financial status has an opportunity to experience the joy and wonder of FI without sacrificing ALL their reliability/longevity. There's a reason race motors are frequently rebuilt here people.
Granted, I've only been playing with and racing Z cars for 21 years, so what the hell do I know...?
Nitrous has said that Rob has been working with him to help make it right in what Nitrous himself considers upstanding. Albeit, short of writing him a $100,000 personal check for his trouble. I know that upsets a lot of people, but they're most likely too young or too naive to have actually been exposed to the "real" world in any significant fashion.
The comment that ZCG is dying a slow death seems comical given the fact the next available appointment is in February and people are driving their cars from as much as a 1000 miles away to have Rob's team "fix" problems created or unfixable by other shops...
Nitrous, I hope you'll let us all know what you decide and, in the end, whether you felt you were dealt with fairly. This board is a great source of information and offer it's members an opportunity to hear a multitude of opinions regarding the quality and service they receive from various shops that support our hobby.
Cheers,
lww
Alex, I've been with you through all the ups/downs of this project & you already know how I feel about everything. I am probably one of the biggest supporters having put a lot of my own personal time to help achieve your goal. Keep your head up bro. It only feels like you hit rock bottom since you've been without your car for a long time now (which is in itself a nightmare for enthusiasts like ourselves) & issues like this which results to prolonging getting your car back is very discouraging. As I mentioned & what lww has pointed out as well, it is always a touchy situation having too many hands on the cookie jar especially if issues arise since there would be too many variables to pinpoint what was the actual cause of the problem. One thing for sure is you have two outstanding shops taking care of you. As you already know, I for one am a strong/loyal supporter for Rob & the crew at ZCG. Sam & GTM are also one of the very best out there for what you seek as well so you definitely are in good hands. For any project of this magnitude, you are bound to run into bumps & this is just one of them. You already know, it's a difficult task being the trend setter
Besides...if you sell your Z dammit, I'm getting me an SUV w/ a 6" lift, yada, yada, yada
01-04-2007, 03:29 AM
#180
Originally Posted by wtf no turbo
Air it out man dont leave us hanging. UTEC did not work? fcon is great and is the easiest of the 2 to tune but UTEC is more then capable.