Load Based (Dyno Dynamics) vs. Inertia Based (Most DynoJets)
05-02-2007, 04:39 PM
#82
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Let's assume tuning cost the same or similar amount of money at all shops.
Would you go to a tailor who has been tailoring suits for celebrities for 20 years or would you go to a new tailor with the best sewing machine considering they cost similar?
Would you buy a car from a dealership who can give you the best service before and after, or a new dealership with a better facility?
Would you hire a sales manager who is known to be able to sell the most, or a new manager with a better suit and better hair?
Would you buy medicine that has been proven to work, or a new medicine made with the best machines?
Would you buy a lifejacket from someone who has been making them for 20 years with the least failure rate, or from someone who just started making the life jackets with the newest machines?
Point is, don't bash others who have proved themselves just because you use a better tool. Tuning is much like the above examples, you get one shot at it, and one shot only. I know if I need my car tuned again, who I would go to between Audible/GTM or Function2nd. Not bashing you in any way at all, just stating what I see, just like yourself, but from a potential customer's perspective. I know you were not trying to bash other shops, but the way it came out, saying something to the effect of "any tuner who uses dynojets are just guessing", seemed nothing less than a personal attack at other tuners who have worked their way to be where they are today. A tuner is supposed to do nothing other than - to tune. Whatever tools they use, if they're good at it and has proven to be good at it, then who's to say they are wrong and they are only "guessing"?
I think that's the line that pissed off the other vendors. But I'm sure there is no doubt in anyone's minds that a load based dyno is easier to work with. Nothing more, nothing less, if that's the only point you were trying to get at.
Would you go to a tailor who has been tailoring suits for celebrities for 20 years or would you go to a new tailor with the best sewing machine considering they cost similar?
Would you buy a car from a dealership who can give you the best service before and after, or a new dealership with a better facility?
Would you hire a sales manager who is known to be able to sell the most, or a new manager with a better suit and better hair?
Would you buy medicine that has been proven to work, or a new medicine made with the best machines?
Would you buy a lifejacket from someone who has been making them for 20 years with the least failure rate, or from someone who just started making the life jackets with the newest machines?
Point is, don't bash others who have proved themselves just because you use a better tool. Tuning is much like the above examples, you get one shot at it, and one shot only. I know if I need my car tuned again, who I would go to between Audible/GTM or Function2nd. Not bashing you in any way at all, just stating what I see, just like yourself, but from a potential customer's perspective. I know you were not trying to bash other shops, but the way it came out, saying something to the effect of "any tuner who uses dynojets are just guessing", seemed nothing less than a personal attack at other tuners who have worked their way to be where they are today. A tuner is supposed to do nothing other than - to tune. Whatever tools they use, if they're good at it and has proven to be good at it, then who's to say they are wrong and they are only "guessing"?
I think that's the line that pissed off the other vendors. But I'm sure there is no doubt in anyone's minds that a load based dyno is easier to work with. Nothing more, nothing less, if that's the only point you were trying to get at.
05-02-2007, 05:42 PM
#83
This seems to have become a war of vendors thread . But I think we all need to be more honest on this site if the sole purpose is to help each other . But we all know that isnt going to happen . And when it comes to dynoing cars , the vendors and tuners on this site are being the most dishonest . And it is so obvious when you see in the door dyno's and out the door dyno's . A little trickery goes a long way doesnt it ? All in the name of the buck $ and the ego . Tuners and car owners all want to be top dog to show off what they can do and [ vendors and tuners ] want to bring in as much buisness as possible . Understandable , but it seems they need to draw the line somewhere . The in the door dyno's keep getting smaller [whp] and the out the door dyno's bigger . Finding more power from the motor is great , but getting it from changing parameters on the dyno isnt .
Im done ...you can bash me now ! LOL
Im done ...you can bash me now ! LOL
05-02-2007, 06:44 PM
#84
Originally Posted by booger
This seems to have become a war of vendors thread . But I think we all need to be more honest on this site if the sole purpose is to help each other . But we all know that isnt going to happen . And when it comes to dynoing cars , the vendors and tuners on this site are being the most dishonest . And it is so obvious when you see in the door dyno's and out the door dyno's . A little trickery goes a long way doesnt it ? All in the name of the buck $ and the ego . Tuners and car owners all want to be top dog to show off what they can do and [ vendors and tuners ] want to bring in as much buisness as possible . Understandable , but it seems they need to draw the line somewhere . The in the door dyno's keep getting smaller [whp] and the out the door dyno's bigger . Finding more power from the motor is great , but getting it from changing parameters on the dyno isnt .
Im done ...you can bash me now ! LOL
Im done ...you can bash me now ! LOL
Your suggestion that most dyno tuners are fudging numbers couldnt be further from the truth, IMHO. Anyone can smell the fishy numbers a mile away, IMHO. For instance, when I see a vendor host a dyno day, and an AUTO 350z with simple bolt ons...make 265whp on a DynoDynamics...it is obvious they are fudging. When we hosted OUR dyno day, the highest whp car with bolt ons, did 245whp, and most were in the 210-225whp range...TOPS.
Have you noticed, for instance, that our dyno numbers are some of the lowest around? Most people that come to our shop for built TT projects dyno about 500whp...give or take a little bit on pump gas. Clearly a "low" number..but a FAST car....probably 550whp+ on a DynoJet...as we have demonstated with our same day drives over to the local DynoJet...BamBam, Alberto..etc..etc.
Ok, I will shut up now.
05-02-2007, 06:47 PM
#85
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Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
Have you noticed, for instance, that our dyno numbers are some of the lowest around?
John
05-02-2007, 07:12 PM
#86
Im not trying to point fingers at any one vendor on theis site . If one is doing it...in one form or another all of them are doing it . You your self said your DD dyno reads any where from 7 to 13 % lower than a DJ dyno . That gives you alot of room . If there is a DJ near you that others use to compare . A % figure should be narrowed down closer than 6 % give or take .
05-02-2007, 07:25 PM
#87
Originally Posted by booger
Im not trying to point fingers at any one vendor on theis site . If one is doing it...in one form or another all of them are doing it . You your self said your DD dyno reads any where from 7 to 13 % lower than a DJ dyno . That gives you alot of room . If there is a DJ near you that others use to compare . A % figure should be narrowed down closer than 6 % give or take .
The most important numbers...are the baseline....and the after tuned numbers....on OUR dyno. That's it. How much they make on a DJ isnt really relevant, and we do it only at the customer's request.
The thing with any dyno, is they all can ready slightly differently. People have talked about lower reading DJ's, and higher reading DD's, and this is why I give the general statement about the difference in power between DD and DJ. Maybe my local DJ guy straps the car down more tightly one day over the next....just as an example.
05-02-2007, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by booger
Im not trying to point fingers at any one vendor on theis site . If one is doing it...in one form or another all of them are doing it .
05-02-2007, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
Anyone can smell the fishy numbers a mile away, IMHO. For instance, when I see a vendor host a dyno day, and an AUTO 350z with simple bolt ons...make 265whp on a DynoDynamics...it is obvious they are fudging.
funny!
05-02-2007, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by stormcrow
i was going to leave this alone, but just couldn't resist! now THAT'S funny!
funny!
05-02-2007, 11:34 PM
#92
Originally Posted by DaveFunction2ND
I said I was WORRIED we had not installed the STOCK knock sensor since as you know that is the sensor that the UTEC uses and I was seeing ZERO knock through the UTEC and obviously none through the head phones. You of all people should know that the electronic knock detection systems are notorious for picking up just random engine noise. That is what I was looking for to confirm the stock knock sensor was functioning. The UTEC Tuner Pro FYI uses a standalone Bosch Knock Sensor that we installed next to the stock knock sensor in the valley of the V.
I never said I had more experiance then everyone else. I never tuned customers cars at AAM. I've been around cars my entire adult life. I've tuned many many friends cars and my own 1987 BMW 635CSi with an Electromotive TEC3 Standalone.
So you to are jumping on the band wagon. A load based dyno IS a better tuning tool? This is all I was saying from the very beginning. Are you disputing that? I would have to assume not since you're spending the money to get the better dyno.
I'm not bashing my former employer I am mearly stating the facts. A statement of fact is much more professional in my opinion. Being honest with my customers and giving them the best customer service is the professional way to do things. I did the best I could at AAM to change the way they did business. Many here can attest to that. My best attempts failed and it was time for me to move on.
What other vendors did I knock concerning head bolts. I only shared my experiance. The facts of the situation. You saying "For the record your comment on your other post is way wrong as far as factory head bolts and head lift, you made the mistake of knocking other vendors in order to make yourself look better, or superior." is only a disservice to the Z community. That was never my intention and you know it. It is my opinion that you felt slighted by my comment so you assumed I was speaking out of superiority. When in fact I was only telling the person what I thought. A resonable thing to do. Are you just trying to protect the position you have built up? I mean what gives? Is this just an attempt to steam roll the small guy? Seems like it....hmmm...professional is all relative isn't it.
I never said I had more experiance then everyone else. I never tuned customers cars at AAM. I've been around cars my entire adult life. I've tuned many many friends cars and my own 1987 BMW 635CSi with an Electromotive TEC3 Standalone.
So you to are jumping on the band wagon. A load based dyno IS a better tuning tool? This is all I was saying from the very beginning. Are you disputing that? I would have to assume not since you're spending the money to get the better dyno.
I'm not bashing my former employer I am mearly stating the facts. A statement of fact is much more professional in my opinion. Being honest with my customers and giving them the best customer service is the professional way to do things. I did the best I could at AAM to change the way they did business. Many here can attest to that. My best attempts failed and it was time for me to move on.
What other vendors did I knock concerning head bolts. I only shared my experiance. The facts of the situation. You saying "For the record your comment on your other post is way wrong as far as factory head bolts and head lift, you made the mistake of knocking other vendors in order to make yourself look better, or superior." is only a disservice to the Z community. That was never my intention and you know it. It is my opinion that you felt slighted by my comment so you assumed I was speaking out of superiority. When in fact I was only telling the person what I thought. A resonable thing to do. Are you just trying to protect the position you have built up? I mean what gives? Is this just an attempt to steam roll the small guy? Seems like it....hmmm...professional is all relative isn't it.
So first you say that you were "worried" because you did not install a knock sensor....
Then you say you did install the standalone knock sensor the comes with the Tuner Pro....
BUT you removed the STOCK knock sensor....?
Since you "did not install" the factory knock sensor, there is no way the UTEC would log knock (as it did in your previous post) and you should know that the Tuner PRO only allows you to listen for knock with its own Knock sensor it DOES NOT submit feedback to the UTEC, also if you "did not install" the factory knock sensor it would throw a hard code and disable the cam phasing on the engine. You didn't say there were any problems with cam phasing....and the UTEC logs you posted show knock monitoring....
So this leads me to believe you DID NOT install the knock sensor that comes with the Tuner PRO, since it is a lot of work to install it. So you are either not telling the truth about one or the other.
and OF COURSE there is engine noise when using headphones, that is why we use a HKS Knock Amp for tuning which allows us to dial in the frequency precisely and filter most of the noise, of course it takes a good tuner to be able to separate knock from engine noise
Maybe you have a problem doing that?I do agree that a load based dyno will make tuning easier and more efficient (which is why we will be adding on to our facility) but we do not agree that a given tuner's tune will be any less because of the dyno being used. Tuner A can tune a car much better with a Dynojet than Tuner B can with a Dyno Dynamics because Tuner A might have a lot of experience tuning, and specifically a lot of experience with the specific car at hand while Tuner B might still be a novice.
Also we don't need to "protect the image we built up" our work and customer satisifaction does that for us. There is no need to "steam roll the little guy either" so far it seems your going to "steam roll" yourself with these false comments and attacks at other vendors.
This thread should end here....
-George
GT Motorsports
05-03-2007, 01:29 AM
#94
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how much does it cost for a dyno run?
i want to try RUNNING on one and see how much horsepower my shoes have.
forgive me.. the beer's kicking in... and i am lonely... in this cold, late... dark... night.
i want to try RUNNING on one and see how much horsepower my shoes have.
forgive me.. the beer's kicking in... and i am lonely... in this cold, late... dark... night.
05-03-2007, 02:00 AM
#95
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Originally Posted by George@GTM
Wow Dave not what I was expecting from you...
So first you say that you were "worried" because you did not install a knock sensor....
Then you say you did install the standalone knock sensor the comes with the Tuner Pro....
BUT you removed the STOCK knock sensor....?
Since you "did not install" the factory knock sensor, there is no way the UTEC would log knock (as it did in your previous post) and you should know that the Tuner PRO only allows you to listen for knock with its own Knock sensor it DOES NOT submit feedback to the UTEC, also if you "did not install" the factory knock sensor it would throw a hard code and disable the cam phasing on the engine. You didn't say there were any problems with cam phasing....and the UTEC logs you posted show knock monitoring....
So this leads me to believe you DID NOT install the knock sensor that comes with the Tuner PRO, since it is a lot of work to install it. So you are either not telling the truth about one or the other.
-George
GT Motorsports
So first you say that you were "worried" because you did not install a knock sensor....
Then you say you did install the standalone knock sensor the comes with the Tuner Pro....
BUT you removed the STOCK knock sensor....?
Since you "did not install" the factory knock sensor, there is no way the UTEC would log knock (as it did in your previous post) and you should know that the Tuner PRO only allows you to listen for knock with its own Knock sensor it DOES NOT submit feedback to the UTEC, also if you "did not install" the factory knock sensor it would throw a hard code and disable the cam phasing on the engine. You didn't say there were any problems with cam phasing....and the UTEC logs you posted show knock monitoring....
So this leads me to believe you DID NOT install the knock sensor that comes with the Tuner PRO, since it is a lot of work to install it. So you are either not telling the truth about one or the other.
-George
GT Motorsports
Yes, it’s a lot of work just to install that sensor but worth it. Both the factory and bosh knock were installed at all times and I know this for a fact because I installed them!
I’m not geting into this, it just seam’s that people are taking this thread way to personal and looking for ways to have the last word.
Last edited by JuanFunction2ND; 05-03-2007 at 02:08 AM.
05-03-2007, 02:06 AM
#96
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Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
When we hosted OUR dyno day, the highest whp car with bolt ons, did 245whp, and most were in the 210-225whp range...TOPS.
05-03-2007, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by George@GTM
I do agree that a load based dyno will make tuning easier and more efficient (which is why we will be adding on to our facility) but we do not agree that a given tuner's tune will be any less because of the dyno being used. Tuner A can tune a car much better with a Dynojet than Tuner B can with a Dyno Dynamics because Tuner A might have a lot of experience tuning, and specifically a lot of experience with the specific car at hand while Tuner B might still be a novice.
Also we don't need to "protect the image we built up" our work and customer satisifaction does that for us. There is no need to "steam roll the little guy either" so far it seems your going to "steam roll" yourself with these false comments and attacks at other vendors.
This thread should end here....
-George
GT Motorsports
Last edited by JuanFunction2ND; 05-03-2007 at 02:10 AM.
05-03-2007, 04:47 AM
#98
Function Tuned = knife
GTM = gun
why are you making yourself look bad dave?? you were very cool till you started all these crazy claims on your threads while bashing other vendors and other types of dynos. you should probably chill a bit...
glad you have your shop open and running, just think about what and who you are arguing with..
GTM = gun
why are you making yourself look bad dave?? you were very cool till you started all these crazy claims on your threads while bashing other vendors and other types of dynos. you should probably chill a bit...
glad you have your shop open and running, just think about what and who you are arguing with..
05-03-2007, 04:56 AM
#99
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Originally Posted by Audible Mayhem
Function Tuned = knife
GTM = gun
why are you making yourself look bad dave?? you were very cool till you started all these crazy claims on your threads while bashing other vendors and other types of dynos. you should probably chill a bit...
glad you have your shop open and running, just think about what and who you are arguing with..
GTM = gun
why are you making yourself look bad dave?? you were very cool till you started all these crazy claims on your threads while bashing other vendors and other types of dynos. you should probably chill a bit...
glad you have your shop open and running, just think about what and who you are arguing with..
From an outsider's perspective it seems that the bashing is going both ways.