Load Based (Dyno Dynamics) vs. Inertia Based (Most DynoJets)
05-03-2007, 05:53 AM
#101
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Dave,
If you didn't like AAM's way of doing things and thats why you decided to start your own thing thats understandable. I applaud you for taking the risk in doing such a thing as this sort of business is very difficult at times. Though I am surprised at some of your comments, there was no need to attack or degrade anyone's business....
You wrote an informative article/thread but you also opened the door for those who don't understand to be confused, and for those who do to be able to make you look bad...
Just be careful with what you say online as people do read it and it is what builds your reputation.
William
If you didn't like AAM's way of doing things and thats why you decided to start your own thing thats understandable. I applaud you for taking the risk in doing such a thing as this sort of business is very difficult at times. Though I am surprised at some of your comments, there was no need to attack or degrade anyone's business....
You wrote an informative article/thread but you also opened the door for those who don't understand to be confused, and for those who do to be able to make you look bad...
Just be careful with what you say online as people do read it and it is what builds your reputation.
William
05-03-2007, 06:10 AM
#102
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Originally Posted by BriGuyMax
From an outsider's perspective it seems that the bashing is going both ways.
+1. For example take the thread audible mayhem made about the turbonetics st. He states that it is "REAL" world numbers and traps speeds bla, bla, bla. Does anyone in this thread really not believe that a VQ35 with a Greddy TT @ 18psi of boost couldn't make 563whp without fudging the dyno numbers? Get over it people those numbers are not out of line with that kit and psi.
As far as the argument about the dynos that is a different story and those arguing on both sides make good points. A DD is a better dyno for tuning, but that doesn't mean a tuner can't provide a great tune on a DJ. Personally I prefer my car to be tuned on DD. I'll drive my happy **** over to a DJ to get "real world" numbers after it's tuned on the DD.
I don't track my car, but that doesn't make it any slower then what other people have with the same power levels. The driver might make the car slower, but if the drivers are equal in skill the track times will be the same.BTW, I am not bashing audible mayhem. I am just posting what I see. To me it looks like a pot calling kettle black. If I am wrong I appologize.
Last edited by Gman2004; 05-03-2007 at 06:13 AM.
05-03-2007, 06:18 AM
#103
all i am saying and have ever said is that dynos can be altered and corrected to put up false numbers, i never said that the numbers he had arent possible. just saying back it up in the real world. trap speeds cant be corrected or fixed, if your car maks 550 plus and weighs around 3500 it should run this... ex.
people are using dynos to promote their shop, i never have or had an issue until he stated that people cant "tune" on a dynojet.
all these big big big "claims" of high horsepower with no backing up is what bother me, people come into my shop sayin, "well i saw this guy made 550 plus on the stock motor, thats what i want or i will have to go up to his shop and have it done...."
people are using dynos to promote their shop, i never have or had an issue until he stated that people cant "tune" on a dynojet.
all these big big big "claims" of high horsepower with no backing up is what bother me, people come into my shop sayin, "well i saw this guy made 550 plus on the stock motor, thats what i want or i will have to go up to his shop and have it done...."
05-03-2007, 06:18 AM
#104
Originally Posted by wperdigon
Dave,
If you didn't like AAM's way of doing things and thats why you decided to start your own thing thats understandable. I applaud you for taking the risk in doing such a thing as this sort of business is very difficult at times. Though I am surprised at some of your comments, there was no need to attack or degrade anyone's business....
You wrote an informative article/thread but you also opened the door for those who don't understand to be confused, and for those who do to be able to make you look bad...
Just be careful with what you say online as people do read it and it is what builds your reputation.
William
If you didn't like AAM's way of doing things and thats why you decided to start your own thing thats understandable. I applaud you for taking the risk in doing such a thing as this sort of business is very difficult at times. Though I am surprised at some of your comments, there was no need to attack or degrade anyone's business....
You wrote an informative article/thread but you also opened the door for those who don't understand to be confused, and for those who do to be able to make you look bad...
Just be careful with what you say online as people do read it and it is what builds your reputation.
William
05-03-2007, 06:20 AM
#105
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Originally Posted by Audible Mayhem
all i am saying and have ever said is that dynos can be altered and corrected to put up false numbers, i never said that the numbers he had arent possible. just saying back it up in the real world. trap speeds cant be corrected or fixed, if your car maks 550 plus and weighs around 3500 it should run this... ex.
05-03-2007, 06:21 AM
#106
again, no one is arguing that a car cant make 563 at 18psi with a greddy kit, but on a stock motor, that is A LOT more than most people have claimed. not saying that it cant be done but why not take it to the track and run low 10s at 130. that all i ask...
Originally Posted by Gman2004
+1. For example take the thread audible mayhem made about the turbonetics st. He states that it is "REAL" world numbers and traps speeds bla, bla, bla. Does anyone in this thread really not believe that a VQ35 with a Greddy TT @ 18psi of boost couldn't make 563whp without fudging the dyno numbers? Get over it people those numbers are not out of line with that kit and psi.
.
.
05-03-2007, 06:23 AM
#107
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Originally Posted by Audible Mayhem
not saying that it cant be done but why not take it to the track and run low 10s at 130. that all i ask...
05-03-2007, 06:23 AM
#108
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Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
Booger, are you trying to bring every vendor out of the woodwork...to liven up this thread?
Your suggestion that most dyno tuners are fudging numbers couldnt be further from the truth, IMHO. Anyone can smell the fishy numbers a mile away, IMHO. For instance, when I see a vendor host a dyno day, and an AUTO 350z with simple bolt ons...make 265whp on a DynoDynamics...it is obvious they are fudging. When we hosted OUR dyno day, the highest whp car with bolt ons, did 245whp, and most were in the 210-225whp range...TOPS.
Your suggestion that most dyno tuners are fudging numbers couldnt be further from the truth, IMHO. Anyone can smell the fishy numbers a mile away, IMHO. For instance, when I see a vendor host a dyno day, and an AUTO 350z with simple bolt ons...make 265whp on a DynoDynamics...it is obvious they are fudging. When we hosted OUR dyno day, the highest whp car with bolt ons, did 245whp, and most were in the 210-225whp range...TOPS.
Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
Have you noticed, for instance, that our dyno numbers are some of the lowest around? Most people that come to our shop for built TT projects dyno about 500whp...give or take a little bit on pump gas. Clearly a "low" number..but a FAST car....probably 550whp+ on a DynoJet...as we have demonstated with our same day drives over to the local DynoJet...BamBam, Alberto..etc..etc.
Ok, I will shut up now.
Ok, I will shut up now.
WAAAAY lower than any of out stock motor boosted cars. Either your customers cant drive, or something is wrong..Stop dragging me into your little dyno debates..I proved you wrong last time, dont make me do it again and make you look like the fool you really are..PS.... I want no part of this Bullshit debate on Dyno Types and correction factors, I have argued my point till blue in the face and the same 5 people will flame me regardless of what I say..So Enjoy your little Dyno debates back and forth...We will be building a stupid fast car with our free time while you ladies post away..
As far as over 600 whp@18psi on a stock block and head studs....Im not even going there..Ill leave it at that....
Last edited by Julian@MRC; 05-03-2007 at 06:31 AM.
05-03-2007, 06:56 AM
#110
Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports
Wow, I guess your reffering to me once again Sharif..Insinuating I was fudging numbers on a Dyno day is proposterous at least..All of the cars made what they made, period..We had people surprised with their results and people depressed with their results. We gave our customers their Uncorrected numbers and Corrected numbers.90% of them wanted their Dyno Jet simulated numbers
As far as over 600 whp@18psi on a stock block and head studs....Im not even going there..Ill leave it at that....[/SIZE][/B]
As far as over 600 whp@18psi on a stock block and head studs....Im not even going there..Ill leave it at that....[/SIZE][/B]
My point is, that you, MRC, have an awesome dyno tool. Do you have DJ dyno envy or something? Post the uncorrected numbers. We wont post the BS numbers, even if customers ask. I just dont see the point. Becuase it creates too much confusion, IMHO, cheapens the DD. This is why the new version of the software doesnt have an "X" factor correction.
My car trapped 132mph, BTW...and I suck at drag racing. The 114-120mph traps posted are all on STOCK BLOCKS...geezus....get over yourself Julian.
05-03-2007, 07:03 AM
#111
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Becasue I've been picked on I'll go ahead (against my better judgment) and add my .02 
To add some humor....
I suppose this can be related to how often times people argue that book smarts may get you good grades, but street smarts get you through the real world. We can compare this to tuning. Somebody could read up know every principal in the world and get great fancy numbers on the dyno. But a simple mistake could lead to catastrophic engine failure on the street. Somebody with street smarts understands the real word application and its cause and effect, so their product works in the real world.
More seriously....
In my opinion the best thing any tuner can have is experience - years of experience. And, in my opinion , I view experience as two parts.
1. Experience tuning in general
2. Experience tuning a particular platform (ie. VQ35 engine)
I am going to highlight #2 first
This is important because someone may have been tuning for years, but is then introduced to a vehicle they've never seen before. They will be able to tune this vehicle well, but it is going to take a great deal more time and they will not be familiar with limitations and ideocracies of the platform (ie. how the factory computer will effect tuning now and after the tuning session, how the engine will react to different load/timing/fuel ratios, thresholds of the platform, etc.).
Highlighting # 1 above, someone may know a particular platform well but does not have the general seat time to properly understand the long term effects of how they setup the final tune, etc. Although they can make fancy dyno numbers - the vehicle is more likely to experience failure down the road.
A last component I'd like to address is this. When a new platform is introduced someone has to figure it out. This can be fortunate and unfortunate for particular tuners and/or shops. Many of the shops who break ground get blamed for limitations of the platform until enough experience has been achieved to conclude fact on the platforms limitations.
So where newer shops do have an advantage is that they can learn from the pros and their findings on the platform.
If someone new has done their research and has had an opportunity to work at a shop such as ours moving forward they should be aware of the many problems and solutions a shop such as ours experienced while developing breaking ground with, R&Ding, and servicing the platform. So they have a great head start if they remember and apply what they’ve seen and learned in getting a jump start on the VQ platform.
How does this relate to the topic at hand? In my oppinion without the above qualities even the best dyno in the universe will not do your car any good (unless you are tuning the car to be optimal solely while strapped up to the particular dyno its being tuned on).
So, in my opinion, both general tuning experience and experience with any given vehicle platform are very important in achieving the "perfect" tune.
To add some humor....
I suppose this can be related to how often times people argue that book smarts may get you good grades, but street smarts get you through the real world. We can compare this to tuning. Somebody could read up know every principal in the world and get great fancy numbers on the dyno. But a simple mistake could lead to catastrophic engine failure on the street. Somebody with street smarts understands the real word application and its cause and effect, so their product works in the real world.
More seriously....
In my opinion the best thing any tuner can have is experience - years of experience. And, in my opinion
, I view experience as two parts. 1. Experience tuning in general
2. Experience tuning a particular platform (ie. VQ35 engine)
I am going to highlight #2 first
This is important because someone may have been tuning for years, but is then introduced to a vehicle they've never seen before. They will be able to tune this vehicle well, but it is going to take a great deal more time and they will not be familiar with limitations and ideocracies of the platform (ie. how the factory computer will effect tuning now and after the tuning session, how the engine will react to different load/timing/fuel ratios, thresholds of the platform, etc.).
Highlighting # 1 above, someone may know a particular platform well but does not have the general seat time to properly understand the long term effects of how they setup the final tune, etc. Although they can make fancy dyno numbers - the vehicle is more likely to experience failure down the road.
A last component I'd like to address is this. When a new platform is introduced someone has to figure it out. This can be fortunate and unfortunate for particular tuners and/or shops. Many of the shops who break ground get blamed for limitations of the platform until enough experience has been achieved to conclude fact on the platforms limitations.
So where newer shops do have an advantage is that they can learn from the pros and their findings on the platform.
If someone new has done their research and has had an opportunity to work at a shop such as ours moving forward they should be aware of the many problems and solutions a shop such as ours experienced while developing breaking ground with, R&Ding, and servicing the platform. So they have a great head start if they remember and apply what they’ve seen and learned in getting a jump start on the VQ platform.
How does this relate to the topic at hand? In my oppinion without the above qualities even the best dyno in the universe will not do your car any good (unless you are tuning the car to be optimal solely while strapped up to the particular dyno its being tuned on).
So, in my opinion, both general tuning experience and experience with any given vehicle platform are very important in achieving the "perfect" tune.
05-03-2007, 07:05 AM
#112
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Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports
Wow, I guess your reffering to me once again Sharif..Insinuating I was fudging numbers on a Dyno day is proposterous at least..All of the cars made what they made, period..We had people surprised with their results and people depressed with their results. We gave our customers their Uncorrected numbers and Corrected numbers.90% of them wanted their Dyno Jet simulated numbers..So if you take the guy that made 265 and subtracted 13%, which is what we add, then you would realize a Dyno Dynamics number of 230whp.Why is this so hard to swallow for you..Also, what would we gain from fudging the numbers on a car we did ZEROof the work on??Please expound...We even saw cars correct to as high as 270whp, and thought that the temperature correction may have been off, however this was not the case..The day we hosted our dyno day, the weather and atmospheric conditions were IDEAL, and our Dyno was actually correcting the Atmospheric correction to 0.985%, so if anything all of the cars were making LESS HP corected FYI..Stop hating already..It is what it is, no trickery here..
Have you also noticed all of the "monster cars" to come out of your shop trap 116-118 mph WAAAAY lower than any of out stock motor boosted cars. Either your customers cant drive, or something is wrong..Stop dragging me into your little dyno debates..I proved you wrong last time, dont make me do it again and make you look like the fool you really are..
PS.... I want no part of this Bullshit debate on Dyno Types and correction factors, I have argued my point till blue in the face and the same 5 people will flame me regardless of what I say..So Enjoy your little Dyno debates back and forth...We will be building a stupid fast car with our free time while you ladies post away..
As far as over 600 whp@18psi on a stock block and head studs....Im not even going there..Ill leave it at that....
Have you also noticed all of the "monster cars" to come out of your shop trap 116-118 mph
WAAAAY lower than any of out stock motor boosted cars. Either your customers cant drive, or something is wrong..Stop dragging me into your little dyno debates..I proved you wrong last time, dont make me do it again and make you look like the fool you really are..PS.... I want no part of this Bullshit debate on Dyno Types and correction factors, I have argued my point till blue in the face and the same 5 people will flame me regardless of what I say..So Enjoy your little Dyno debates back and forth...We will be building a stupid fast car with our free time while you ladies post away..
As far as over 600 whp@18psi on a stock block and head studs....Im not even going there..Ill leave it at that....
Off he goes again. LOL
05-03-2007, 07:44 AM
#114
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hahaha I know
the whole problem is that Dave didn't;t write his first post in this thread right...
he should have just said something like "that we have a tool that is excellent for tuning and we have great experience bla bla bla bla bla..."
period
But whether he meant it or not, it was clear to see that posted looked like he was saying I am better because i have a DD and because of all this "copy/paste" stuff i just put on here you are wrong going to someone with a DJ. That was wrong and thats why other vendors got defensive. IT DOESn'T matter, each tuner will have whatever tool they feel will be good. DJ SAE is industry standard .
After that who cares what dyno (DD, DJ, DP) is used as long as the tune is good.
the whole problem is that Dave didn't;t write his first post in this thread right...
he should have just said something like "that we have a tool that is excellent for tuning and we have great experience bla bla bla bla bla..."
period
But whether he meant it or not, it was clear to see that posted looked like he was saying I am better because i have a DD and because of all this "copy/paste" stuff i just put on here you are wrong going to someone with a DJ. That was wrong and thats why other vendors got defensive. IT DOESn'T matter, each tuner will have whatever tool they feel will be good. DJ SAE is industry standard .
After that who cares what dyno (DD, DJ, DP) is used as long as the tune is good.
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 05-03-2007 at 08:02 AM.
05-03-2007, 07:49 AM
#115
Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
hahaha I know
the whole problem is that Dave didn;t write his first post in this thread right...
he shoudl ahve jsut said that we have a tool that is excellent for tunning and we have great experience bla bla bla bla bla...
period
But wheather he meant it or not, it was clear to see that that posted looked like he was saying I am better because i have a DD and because of all this "copy/paste" stuff i just put on here you are wrong going to someone with a DJ. That was wrong. IT DOEST matter, each tunner will have whatever tool they feel will be good. DJ SAE is industry standard .
After that who cars as long as the tune is good.
the whole problem is that Dave didn;t write his first post in this thread right...
he shoudl ahve jsut said that we have a tool that is excellent for tunning and we have great experience bla bla bla bla bla...
period
But wheather he meant it or not, it was clear to see that that posted looked like he was saying I am better because i have a DD and because of all this "copy/paste" stuff i just put on here you are wrong going to someone with a DJ. That was wrong. IT DOEST matter, each tunner will have whatever tool they feel will be good. DJ SAE is industry standard .
After that who cars as long as the tune is good.
Last edited by dutchboy350Z; 05-03-2007 at 07:59 AM.
05-03-2007, 08:04 AM
#116
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Originally Posted by dutchboy350Z
I just contemplated scratching my eyes out after reading your post.
sheez i should've edited my post before i went for a cup of coffee.
yah bad spelling ....but who cares right?
05-03-2007, 08:07 AM
#117
Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
hahaha scratch them HARD!!! lol
sheez i should've edited my post before i went for a cup of coffee.
yah bad spelling ....but who cares right?
sheez i should've edited my post before i went for a cup of coffee.
yah bad spelling ....but who cares right?
lol just messing with ya. That three word blunder "shoudl ahve jsut" put you over the top.
