My unenviable experience concerning BuiltZMotors
08-08-2007, 08:40 PM
#81
I don't see the point in airing dirty laundry in a public forum. Every shop has their mistakes, and sometimes fingers aren't always pointed in the right directions. I am not going to make any ASSumptions as to fault or blame in this thread. These companies/vendors on these forums build up their reputations throw alot of time/effort/money/etc.....and then one ugly story comes out and the villagers gather for a witch hunt. I mean seriously, it sounds like you guys are sharpening your pitchforks and lighting your torches.
Today, it is BuildZMotors. the other day, someone was blasting Z1Performance. Turbonetics has been raked over the coals many times....etc. Who will it be tomorrow?
Give these companies, who you were so hyped over just days before, the benefit of the doubt. Let them rectify things and deal with thier clients in a private and professional manner. Not all the drama has to unfold for everyone to read, nor is it the right for you to expect a shop to have to come on here and defend themselves to you.
I hope the best for all parties involved.
Today, it is BuildZMotors. the other day, someone was blasting Z1Performance. Turbonetics has been raked over the coals many times....etc. Who will it be tomorrow?
Give these companies, who you were so hyped over just days before, the benefit of the doubt. Let them rectify things and deal with thier clients in a private and professional manner. Not all the drama has to unfold for everyone to read, nor is it the right for you to expect a shop to have to come on here and defend themselves to you.
I hope the best for all parties involved.
08-08-2007, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by QuadCam
I don't see the point in airing dirty laundry in a public forum. Every shop has their mistakes, and sometimes fingers aren't always pointed in the right directions. I am not going to make any ASSumptions as to fault or blame in this thread. These companies/vendors on these forums build up their reputations throw alot of time/effort/money/etc.....and then one ugly story comes out and the villagers gather for a witch hunt. I mean seriously, it sounds like you guys are sharpening your pitchforks and lighting your torches.
Today, it is BuildZMotors. the other day, someone was blasting Z1Performance. Turbonetics has been raked over the coals many times....etc. Who will it be tomorrow?
Give these companies, who you were so hyped over just days before, the benefit of the doubt. Let them rectify things and deal with thier clients in a private and professional manner. Not all the drama has to unfold for everyone to read, nor is it the right for you to expect a shop to have to come on here and defend themselves to you.
I hope the best for all parties involved.
Today, it is BuildZMotors. the other day, someone was blasting Z1Performance. Turbonetics has been raked over the coals many times....etc. Who will it be tomorrow?
Give these companies, who you were so hyped over just days before, the benefit of the doubt. Let them rectify things and deal with thier clients in a private and professional manner. Not all the drama has to unfold for everyone to read, nor is it the right for you to expect a shop to have to come on here and defend themselves to you.
I hope the best for all parties involved.
I think everyone has a right to know what is going on especially if they already have or are about to spend a whole lot of money on something. I'm sure you might see things differently if you had a 13,000 dollar bill to look forward to due to no fault of your own. If a company is going to do something it better damn well be able to put up with the heat from its mistakes. We aren't here to protect anyones feelings, the fact of the matter is **** happened and now its time to do something about it. Either BZM can do nothing, or they can publicly admit to their mistakes, rectify the situation and clearly show that they have nothing to hide and stand behind their product and their work. Only a ***** hides from his mistakes, it takes a man to own up to them and face the consequences. If they do the right thing they have nothing to fear from the public.
Last edited by Infinus; 08-08-2007 at 09:28 PM.
08-08-2007, 09:43 PM
#83
Originally Posted by Infinus
If you dont know the details of the situation stay out of it, don has been more than civil in this matter, withholding this from the boards for quite some time (hell if it was me I'da been *****ing day 1) Hes been very civil about it, dealing with it privately to what seems to be no result. Even in this post and his requests he is being more than accommodating in the matter, he didn't bash anyone and merely let us know the details.
I think everyone has a right to know what is going on especially if they already have or are about to spend a whole lot of money on something. I'm sure you might see things differently if you had a 13,000 dollar bill to look forward to due to no fault of your own. If a company is going to do something it better damn well be able to put up with the heat from its mistakes. We aren't here to protect anyones feelings, the fact of the matter is **** happened and now its time to do something about it. Either BZM can do nothing, or they can publicly admit to their mistakes, rectify the situation and clearly show that they have nothing to hide and stand behind their product and their work. Only a ***** hides from his mistakes, it takes a man to own up to them and face the consequences. If they do the right thing they have nothing to fear from the public.
I think everyone has a right to know what is going on especially if they already have or are about to spend a whole lot of money on something. I'm sure you might see things differently if you had a 13,000 dollar bill to look forward to due to no fault of your own. If a company is going to do something it better damn well be able to put up with the heat from its mistakes. We aren't here to protect anyones feelings, the fact of the matter is **** happened and now its time to do something about it. Either BZM can do nothing, or they can publicly admit to their mistakes, rectify the situation and clearly show that they have nothing to hide and stand behind their product and their work. Only a ***** hides from his mistakes, it takes a man to own up to them and face the consequences. If they do the right thing they have nothing to fear from the public.
couldn't agree more. especially with a $13,000 repair bill of somebody elses mistake...
subscribing for updates..
thanks JoeDirtPharmD for posting your story. It's good to know what to look out for.
08-09-2007, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by booger
Im very surprised there isnt more comments on the tuning and repair bill !!!!!
Sam is not holding a gun to anyone's head and making them take their car there or pay those prices.
Last edited by Gman2004; 08-09-2007 at 05:29 AM.
08-09-2007, 04:57 AM
#86
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Originally Posted by QuadCam
I don't see the point in airing dirty laundry in a public forum. Every shop has their mistakes, and sometimes fingers aren't always pointed in the right directions. I am not going to make any ASSumptions as to fault or blame in this thread. These companies/vendors on these forums build up their reputations throw alot of time/effort/money/etc.....and then one ugly story comes out and the villagers gather for a witch hunt. I mean seriously, it sounds like you guys are sharpening your pitchforks and lighting your torches.
Today, it is BuildZMotors. the other day, someone was blasting Z1Performance. Turbonetics has been raked over the coals many times....etc. Who will it be tomorrow?
Give these companies, who you were so hyped over just days before, the benefit of the doubt. Let them rectify things and deal with thier clients in a private and professional manner. Not all the drama has to unfold for everyone to read, nor is it the right for you to expect a shop to have to come on here and defend themselves to you.
I hope the best for all parties involved.
Today, it is BuildZMotors. the other day, someone was blasting Z1Performance. Turbonetics has been raked over the coals many times....etc. Who will it be tomorrow?
Give these companies, who you were so hyped over just days before, the benefit of the doubt. Let them rectify things and deal with thier clients in a private and professional manner. Not all the drama has to unfold for everyone to read, nor is it the right for you to expect a shop to have to come on here and defend themselves to you.
I hope the best for all parties involved.
Wow, I wish I would have browsed the F/I section last night, as I missed this thread. i see eveveryone has been munching away on their popcorn and throwing out their ooh's and awe's.
To begin, JoeDirt, I feel for your situation, and like I said, after WE inspect OUR product, we will rectify the situation...I see you took that in such a way that you felt starting a thread would help your case. I have been honest and respectful with you from day one, even gave you a "professional discount" as a courtesy being that you are a Pharamacist
, and ever since you receieved the engine, you contacted me a few brief times, then several weeks later you drop this bomb.As a result of this event, and a few dealings in the past that have left a bad taste n my mouth, Sam and I are not working together, at all, too bad, he was a friend as well a vendor I enjoyed working with. Bottom line, we are honest people, if this was an error in our part, we will fix it.
Now, to get back to the facts... the debris in the engine; I can tell you these engines are vatted, and then we personally go through them for ove an hour with engine brushes and simple green and scrub brushes, making sure all the internal passages are clean. Some bearing debris in a new engine is normal, RTV in the lower oil pan is normal, severe shards of metal, never normal, I'd have to see this with my own eyes, not through a picture, but anyway, moving on toi the next subject...
The bearing clearances, we purposely run .0005" more for a f/i application, totally acceptable, and the pics of the bearing, they look perfectly normal, for those of you who have seen a few thousand miles on a bearing on a new motor, that is normal wear,nothing to be scared of...
since JoeDit is posting all of his PM's to me, I'll post a few of my responses (I tried to sed another but his mailbox was full)
Joe,
Appreciate your response. I will not be able to give any refund until we determine the cause of failure on this motor. i believe what you are saying, that the car was in your hands the entire time throughout the process, but as you can assume, anyone in this position would attest to such a claim. So, if you'd like me to consider any further dealings with this engine, I will need to examine it myself and our machine shop first, then we will determine what went wrong.
As an experiment, I just checked the piston to head clearance with clay, on the exact same setup as you have. The piston to head clearance was at a minimum .044. This means that for the piston to strike the head, something had to give considerably.
So, again, if you'd like me to arrange to pick up the engine, I will do my best (will be driving a mid size car back to NM, not a truck, so it may not be doable, but I think we can manage), but as for any refund, that will be addressed following our analysis.
Thanks for your understanding,
oh, and you can always call me, if you'd like.
TODD
I'll respond to all accusations without haste, but I have to get back to this a bit later, it is early here and I am late for an appointment.
the currently under the scrutiny of the my350z police
-TODD
08-09-2007, 05:10 AM
#87
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Originally Posted by Infinus
If you dont know the details of the situation stay out of it, don has been more than civil in this matter, withholding this from the boards for quite some time (hell if it was me I'da been *****ing day 1) Hes been very civil about it, dealing with it privately to what seems to be no result. Even in this post and his requests he is being more than accommodating in the matter, he didn't bash anyone and merely let us know the details.
I think everyone has a right to know what is going on especially if they already have or are about to spend a whole lot of money on something. I'm sure you might see things differently if you had a 13,000 dollar bill to look forward to due to no fault of your own. If a company is going to do something it better damn well be able to put up with the heat from its mistakes. We aren't here to protect anyones feelings, the fact of the matter is **** happened and now its time to do something about it. Either BZM can do nothing, or they can publicly admit to their mistakes, rectify the situation and clearly show that they have nothing to hide and stand behind their product and their work. Only a ***** hides from his mistakes, it takes a man to own up to them and face the consequences. If they do the right thing they have nothing to fear from the public.
I think everyone has a right to know what is going on especially if they already have or are about to spend a whole lot of money on something. I'm sure you might see things differently if you had a 13,000 dollar bill to look forward to due to no fault of your own. If a company is going to do something it better damn well be able to put up with the heat from its mistakes. We aren't here to protect anyones feelings, the fact of the matter is **** happened and now its time to do something about it. Either BZM can do nothing, or they can publicly admit to their mistakes, rectify the situation and clearly show that they have nothing to hide and stand behind their product and their work. Only a ***** hides from his mistakes, it takes a man to own up to them and face the consequences. If they do the right thing they have nothing to fear from the public.
08-09-2007, 05:15 AM
#88
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
BuiltZmotors needs to step up and do the right thing here... which unfortanly so far ... answer has been poor and i am sure Don is tired of "dancing" around with PMs and phonecalls to BZM to sort things out
that's just the thing, I hadnt received a single phone call from anyone for weeks, and not a one from Don... let the flamefest continue as I explain my side of the story after the one sided bash has already begun...I was so tempted to post a thread first too
08-09-2007, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by 350zDCalb
Wow, I wish I would have browsed the F/I section last night, as I missed this thread. i see eveveryone has been munching away on their popcorn and throwing out their ooh's and awe's.
To begin, JoeDirt, I feel for your situation, and like I said, after WE inspect OUR product, we will rectify the situation...I see you took that in such a way that you felt starting a thread would help your case. I have been honest and respectful with you from day one, even gave you a "professional discount" as a courtesy being that you are a Pharamacist , and ever since you receieved the engine, you contacted me a few brief times, then several weeks later you drop this bomb.
As a result of this event, and a few dealings in the past that have left a bad taste n my mouth, Sam and I are not working together, at all, too bad, he was a friend as well a vendor I enjoyed working with. Bottom line, we are honest people, if this was an error in our part, we will fix it.
Now, to get back to the facts... the debris in the engine; I can tell you these engines are vatted, and then we personally go through them for ove an hour with engine brushes and simple green and scrub brushes, making sure all the internal passages are clean. Some bearing debris in a new engine is normal, RTV in the lower oil pan is normal, severe shards of metal, never normal, I'd have to see this with my own eyes, not through a picture, but anyway, moving on toi the next subject...
The bearing clearances, we purposely run .0005" more for a f/i application, totally acceptable, and the pics of the bearing, they look perfectly normal, for those of you who have seen a few thousand miles on a bearing on a new motor, that is normal wear,nothing to be scared of...
since JoeDit is posting all of his PM's to me, I'll post a few of my responses (I tried to sed another but his mailbox was full)
Joe,
Appreciate your response. I will not be able to give any refund until we determine the cause of failure on this motor. i believe what you are saying, that the car was in your hands the entire time throughout the process, but as you can assume, anyone in this position would attest to such a claim. So, if you'd like me to consider any further dealings with this engine, I will need to examine it myself and our machine shop first, then we will determine what went wrong.
As an experiment, I just checked the piston to head clearance with clay, on the exact same setup as you have. The piston to head clearance was at a minimum .044. This means that for the piston to strike the head, something had to give considerably.
So, again, if you'd like me to arrange to pick up the engine, I will do my best (will be driving a mid size car back to NM, not a truck, so it may not be doable, but I think we can manage), but as for any refund, that will be addressed following our analysis.
Thanks for your understanding,
oh, and you can always call me, if you'd like.
TODD
I'll respond to all accusations without haste, but I have to get back to this a bit later, it is early here and I am late for an appointment.
the currently under the scrutiny of the my350z police
-TODD
To begin, JoeDirt, I feel for your situation, and like I said, after WE inspect OUR product, we will rectify the situation...I see you took that in such a way that you felt starting a thread would help your case. I have been honest and respectful with you from day one, even gave you a "professional discount" as a courtesy being that you are a Pharamacist
, and ever since you receieved the engine, you contacted me a few brief times, then several weeks later you drop this bomb.As a result of this event, and a few dealings in the past that have left a bad taste n my mouth, Sam and I are not working together, at all, too bad, he was a friend as well a vendor I enjoyed working with. Bottom line, we are honest people, if this was an error in our part, we will fix it.
Now, to get back to the facts... the debris in the engine; I can tell you these engines are vatted, and then we personally go through them for ove an hour with engine brushes and simple green and scrub brushes, making sure all the internal passages are clean. Some bearing debris in a new engine is normal, RTV in the lower oil pan is normal, severe shards of metal, never normal, I'd have to see this with my own eyes, not through a picture, but anyway, moving on toi the next subject...
The bearing clearances, we purposely run .0005" more for a f/i application, totally acceptable, and the pics of the bearing, they look perfectly normal, for those of you who have seen a few thousand miles on a bearing on a new motor, that is normal wear,nothing to be scared of...
since JoeDit is posting all of his PM's to me, I'll post a few of my responses (I tried to sed another but his mailbox was full)
Joe,
Appreciate your response. I will not be able to give any refund until we determine the cause of failure on this motor. i believe what you are saying, that the car was in your hands the entire time throughout the process, but as you can assume, anyone in this position would attest to such a claim. So, if you'd like me to consider any further dealings with this engine, I will need to examine it myself and our machine shop first, then we will determine what went wrong.
As an experiment, I just checked the piston to head clearance with clay, on the exact same setup as you have. The piston to head clearance was at a minimum .044. This means that for the piston to strike the head, something had to give considerably.
So, again, if you'd like me to arrange to pick up the engine, I will do my best (will be driving a mid size car back to NM, not a truck, so it may not be doable, but I think we can manage), but as for any refund, that will be addressed following our analysis.
Thanks for your understanding,
oh, and you can always call me, if you'd like.
TODD
I'll respond to all accusations without haste, but I have to get back to this a bit later, it is early here and I am late for an appointment.
the currently under the scrutiny of the my350z police
-TODD
whats wrong with my350z police... you have a customer highly unsatisfied with your response so far, and is not taking a cheap shot at all with this thread.. he has been quite professional in his posts and you know he has waited for you to answer the right way, and so far he has not. So whats wrong here? nothing there is nothing wrong for you to imply anything with the "sorry you choose to go this route" when this wasn't his first choice and in the end... he is a the customer. HE waited to have all the facts waited patiently, got offered re-machining and 500$ worth of parts... please explain how you consider that acceptable as taking care of business?
*(editing the rolleyes signs so you dont consider disrespect with this post :rolleyes : )*
This isn't a thread by an 19 year-old kid saying of this is bad, this is wrong with no basis at all just to get things accomplished, so don't try to make it like that.
*edit* saw your next post...
The flame fest is quite mild actually, if you dont believe that check other threads form the San Diego "house" shop. And so far are totally called for considering all the facts and proof presented so far. Please just take care of your customer, and i am not saying this cause Don is a friend. As i said, i understand mistakes, somethign could go back, its all about taking care of the customer what it matters and standing behind your worth as well. =]
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 08-09-2007 at 05:24 AM.
08-09-2007, 05:30 AM
#90
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as I stated, we will ahndle this...and I'm sure you'll all be posted as to what the outcome is..as of now, as for any vendor on here.... we cannot simply give someone a full refund when we havent even recieved the product back in our hands for analysis...even Sam at GTM told me, if he was in this situation, he would tell the customer to send the engine back , he would fix it, then ship it back, that his warranty covers the ngine "on a bench"...
not syaing we will take this approach, but ask other vendors how they would handle this situation, as i said, i will do the right thing, but first things first, we need to see the engine ourselves and then go from there.
TODD
not syaing we will take this approach, but ask other vendors how they would handle this situation, as i said, i will do the right thing, but first things first, we need to see the engine ourselves and then go from there.
TODD
08-09-2007, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by stormcrow
sharif put his rods in upside down... he had the wrist pin ends connected to the cams and custom fabricated some wrist pins to hold the pistons on where the bearings go... they couldn't get good compression for some reason...
08-09-2007, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by George@GTM
No panties here Just wanted to clarify the charges, I don't believe they are unreasonable if you do, well then we will just have to agree to disagree. Anyway I didn't mean my post to come off as aggressive, just informative. It is always difficult to tell someones tone over the internet, hence I try to use as many smilies as possible.
-George
GT Motorsports
Just wanted to clarify the charges, I don't believe they are unreasonable if you do, well then we will just have to agree to disagree. Anyway I didn't mean my post to come off as aggressive, just informative. It is always difficult to tell someones tone over the internet, hence I try to use as many smilies as possible. -George
GT Motorsports
08-09-2007, 05:42 AM
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After hearing Todd's response, his solution seems fair. ANY vendor would suggest inspecting their OWN motor before issuing a refund. I won't go into details, but I'm in fact waiting on a new short block from another vendor from this site. My installer/tuner says their is a problem with the block, the vendor doesn't really think it's the block so they will not issue a refund UNTIL after they themselves inspect the motor. I found this to be perfectly acceptable. If I was in the vendor's shoes, I would say the same thing. If their is no problem with the block, my installer even said they would eat the cost of the block! Anyways, for all you guys who are jumping the gun, why isn't Todd's solution acceptable?
08-09-2007, 05:44 AM
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EXACTLY.
Originally Posted by 350zDCalb
not syaing we will take this approach, but ask other vendors how they would handle this situation, as i said, i will do the right thing, but first things first, we need to see the engine ourselves and then go from there.
TODD
TODD
08-09-2007, 05:47 AM
#95
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Originally Posted by synth19
After hearing Todd's response, his solution seems fair. ANY vendor would suggest inspecting their OWN motor before issuing a refund. I won't go into details, but I'm in fact waiting on a new short block from another vendor from this site. My installer/tuner says their is a problem with the block, the vendor doesn't really think it's the block so they will not issue a refund UNTIL after they themselves inspect the motor. I found this to be perfectly acceptable. If I was in the vendor's shoes, I would say the same thing. If their is no problem with the block, my installer even said they would eat the cost of the block! Anyways, for all you guys who are jumping the gun, why isn't Todd's solution acceptable?
of course i think thats fair....
I was just going at the part that said the offer was basically remachining and 500$ worth of parts...that was the part that made me
But honefully i am wrong there and that wont be the case
08-09-2007, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeDirtPharmD
ALSO I FOUND THAT THE ROD BEARINGS HAVE .003 IN. CLEARANCE WITCH SHOULD BE .0015 / .002 IN. ALL OF THESE FACTORS COUPLED WITH A .024 IN HEAD GASKET AND HIGH RPM. WILL CREATE THIS CONDITION. ALSO THE NUMBER 1 VALVES ARE NOT HOLD PROPER VACUUM AS SHOWN IN THE PICTURES PROVIDED AS IT SHOULD, THE ENGINE IS SEVERLY CONTAMINATED WITH METAL DEBREE IN THE OIL PAN DUE TO CONTAMINATION DURING THE ASSEMBLY PROCESS OR FROM THE OLD ENGINE CORE NOT BEING CLEANED.
Can someone explained what the bolded text implies? Was the engine over reved?
Last edited by Gman2004; 08-09-2007 at 05:58 AM.
08-09-2007, 05:48 AM
#97
IMO, Todd's response is a fair one. Which vendor would want to jump to conclusions based on another vendor's inspection? Not disrespecting anyone as I sincerely believe in the integrity and honesty of GTM, but they do have something to gain from fixing "a mistake" if they imply a mistake was made as it then becomes difficult for the customer to trust the original shop to repair it. While a mistake may well have been made, I think it is impossible to rule out other possibilities that may not be the fault of BZM, such as an over-rev'd engine by the original tuner (is there evidence of rod stretch?). Based on the pictures, it seems unlikely that there was not something amiss with the build but Todd is justified in wanting to examine the motor himself before assessing the validity of the claim.
I think this would have been different if the inspection was done by a neutral 3rd party that didn't stand to gain or lose from the findings. I would have then expected BZM to accept the results of that inspection but they should have been contacted and asked to agree to this form of "arbitration". I don't think any vendor could be expected to respond differently given the circumstances.
Best of luck to the OP and BZM in resolving this...
EDIT: wow you guys type fast - beat me to it - guess I'll just say +1. and the highlighted item in Gman's post is very relevant
I think this would have been different if the inspection was done by a neutral 3rd party that didn't stand to gain or lose from the findings. I would have then expected BZM to accept the results of that inspection but they should have been contacted and asked to agree to this form of "arbitration". I don't think any vendor could be expected to respond differently given the circumstances.
Best of luck to the OP and BZM in resolving this...
EDIT: wow you guys type fast - beat me to it - guess I'll just say +1. and the highlighted item in Gman's post is very relevant
Last edited by rcdash; 08-09-2007 at 05:52 AM.
08-09-2007, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
of course i think thats fair....
I was just going at the part that said the offer was basically remachining and 500$ worth of parts...that was the part that made me
But honefully i am wrong there and that wont be the case
I was just going at the part that said the offer was basically remachining and 500$ worth of parts...that was the part that made me
But honefully i am wrong there and that wont be the case
08-09-2007, 06:01 AM
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This is a tough situation and a rough game we are in where warranties are almost non existent, I found 4 pages of disclaimers in my box of pistons alone.
You hear so many horror stories of companies not stepping up at all that I think Todd's response and offer of action is a fair one, I know it takes time, I have been there, but best solution would be to hold tight and send the engine back to Todd for his analysis and fix of the issue and reinstall the engine if it can be fixed or if nothing conclusive is found and the engine reassembled.
It is easy for a second shop to point fingers at the engine, if they had built the engine as well they would probably be also pointing fingers at the owner/driver. Anyway the best thing is to keep cool heads and work through things and don't jump the gun and spend more money if you don't have to.
As I said I was there having to do mine twice through no fault of my own and all I could do was wait for the machine shop to correct the situation on the sleeves and as an offer of compensation I got a free set of headgaskets, wow
You hear so many horror stories of companies not stepping up at all that I think Todd's response and offer of action is a fair one, I know it takes time, I have been there, but best solution would be to hold tight and send the engine back to Todd for his analysis and fix of the issue and reinstall the engine if it can be fixed or if nothing conclusive is found and the engine reassembled.
It is easy for a second shop to point fingers at the engine, if they had built the engine as well they would probably be also pointing fingers at the owner/driver. Anyway the best thing is to keep cool heads and work through things and don't jump the gun and spend more money if you don't have to.
As I said I was there having to do mine twice through no fault of my own and all I could do was wait for the machine shop to correct the situation on the sleeves and as an offer of compensation I got a free set of headgaskets, wow