My unenviable experience concerning BuiltZMotors
08-09-2007, 09:39 AM
#162
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Originally Posted by Navygolf13
I understand you listen to both sides of the story, but from reading this it is hard to determine what actually happened and that is my problem here. Todd says he tried to contact the OP and the OP says he had no contact from Todd. There is obviously an issue between GTM and BZM and that puts another issue in here. I am just trying to understand how as a community we can determine these things. It seems to me like someone says something bad about a company and people come out of the woodwork.....every shop has their ups and downs, satisfied cutsomers and unhappy customers.
I guess there really is no easy way to separate these stories and people just make up their own minds. Some will side one way and others will side the other. I dont think anyone can stand on their soapbox and say which one is 100% right. I am sorry if I did that in the past, I will not do that anymore. We all have the right to believe what we do and no one should fault anyone for the way they feel or what they believe. So that being said can we please move on from the past? I am trying to further the dscussion is all....
I guess there really is no easy way to separate these stories and people just make up their own minds. Some will side one way and others will side the other. I dont think anyone can stand on their soapbox and say which one is 100% right. I am sorry if I did that in the past, I will not do that anymore. We all have the right to believe what we do and no one should fault anyone for the way they feel or what they believe. So that being said can we please move on from the past? I am trying to further the dscussion is all....
I'm willing to take my chances believing one shop over the other in this case.
.... EVERYBODY PLZ! 
08-09-2007, 09:41 AM
#164
Originally Posted by doug
its simple.. you listen to both sides.. you listen to the OP and you listen to the shop.. and whom ever has the best facts or handles themselves better you go with them..
surely if a shop refuses to answer their claims *cough* VRT *cough* and loses their sponsorship *cough* VRT *cough* .. you really can't hear both sides to the story can you?
surely if a shop refuses to answer their claims *cough* VRT *cough* and loses their sponsorship *cough* VRT *cough* .. you really can't hear both sides to the story can you?
wow.......a great attorney would love to have you sitting a jurors box.....all he has to do is make you believe him more than the other attorney , and you will side with him.......
08-09-2007, 09:42 AM
#165
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found my pm to Donn 7/19/07
warranty options
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Hey Don
Just want to let you know, if this does turn out to be a machining error resulting in a valve sealing issue/ring sealing issue, and not a bent valve, burnt valve, etc... then i will be more than willing to rebuild the engine at my expense, replace any parts necessary, and rebuild (just to insure no valve leakage issue, the heads will be vacuum tested before the engine is shipped back to you)
I will also cover shipping to me and back to GTM.
I know Sam has already expressed that he recommends everything being done at one shop, but ultimately it is up to you, and as he will openly admit, he has a financial interest in rebuilding if this is the end result.
So, just wanted to let you know that IF this turns out to be our machining error, we will right the wrongs and fix it up.
As an alternate option, if you choose to have Sam rebuild the engine even if it is determined we are at fault, I will be able to contribute the following:
our cost of:
shipping both ways (approx. $500)
bearings ($100)
rings ($200)
This is obviously not as appealing as having us fix the motor in house, as in that case, our machine shop will perform the machining labor at no charge (to keep up their end of the deal), and I will of course perform all of the labor and buy the necessary parts to get it back to 100% erfect working order.
Just wanted to present a few options if it is determined that it is indeed a machining error.
talk to you soon
TODD
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and Don, you had not called me a single time since these issues began. Sam had called me one time, then I get a pm from you yesterday with the "data" that Sam had found... I instructed what I was willing to do, you chose to do otherwise. Call me if you'd like, I'm not trying to upset anyone, but understand that by you going to GTM, you stepped into a biased situation on your diagnosticians end. Legalk recourse would be a waste of time and money, as I am willing to do what I said I would do, and being that this is a performance product, you will find that the odds are not in your favor. I am willing to resolve this is a ethical/cival manner, so get me the engine and we'll take it from there...
can you go to Best Buy and purchase a TV, then take it to Cicuit City and have them take it apart, then take it back to Best Buy and request a refund??? Come on now.
n 7/19/07warranty options
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Don
Just want to let you know, if this does turn out to be a machining error resulting in a valve sealing issue/ring sealing issue, and not a bent valve, burnt valve, etc... then i will be more than willing to rebuild the engine at my expense, replace any parts necessary, and rebuild (just to insure no valve leakage issue, the heads will be vacuum tested before the engine is shipped back to you)
I will also cover shipping to me and back to GTM.
I know Sam has already expressed that he recommends everything being done at one shop, but ultimately it is up to you, and as he will openly admit, he has a financial interest in rebuilding if this is the end result.
So, just wanted to let you know that IF this turns out to be our machining error, we will right the wrongs and fix it up.
As an alternate option, if you choose to have Sam rebuild the engine even if it is determined we are at fault, I will be able to contribute the following:
our cost of:
shipping both ways (approx. $500)
bearings ($100)
rings ($200)
This is obviously not as appealing as having us fix the motor in house, as in that case, our machine shop will perform the machining labor at no charge (to keep up their end of the deal), and I will of course perform all of the labor and buy the necessary parts to get it back to 100% erfect working order.
Just wanted to present a few options if it is determined that it is indeed a machining error.
talk to you soon
TODD
----------------------------------------------------------------
and Don, you had not called me a single time since these issues began. Sam had called me one time, then I get a pm from you yesterday with the "data" that Sam had found... I instructed what I was willing to do, you chose to do otherwise. Call me if you'd like, I'm not trying to upset anyone, but understand that by you going to GTM, you stepped into a biased situation on your diagnosticians end. Legalk recourse would be a waste of time and money, as I am willing to do what I said I would do, and being that this is a performance product, you will find that the odds are not in your favor. I am willing to resolve this is a ethical/cival manner, so get me the engine and we'll take it from there...
can you go to Best Buy and purchase a TV, then take it to Cicuit City and have them take it apart, then take it back to Best Buy and request a refund??? Come on now.
Originally Posted by JoeDirtPharmD
The vehicle was left at GTM after their tuning attempt for the stated reason: two competent shops encountered the exact same tuning issue and was unable to resolve it. Having ruled out the extraneous components, this lends to the motor being at fault.
I was not privy to outstanding animosities between GTM and BZM, and if Todd feels that introduces bias into the scenario, such is life. If Sam stated the derogatory comments, understand that I'm only concerned about the end product, not whether anyone gives me warm fuzzies along the way. Sam candidly shared criticisms about the install (missing fender underskirts, loose wiring to the NOS discharge port for the intercooler, missing battery tiedown) and I accept them, though they are irrelevant to the performance of the motor. To suggest that Sam or GTM has purposely found fault throughout the teardown to benefit their financial interests is absurd for a shop of that caliber.
Leaving the car at GTM was a prudent move. Had I taken it to an unknown shop here in AZ, upon listing the same findings I would have been under fire for not taking it to a 'recognized' shop. The machinist at GTM has been in practice for a significant number of years so I instill faith that their assessment is spot-on.
If Todd wants to take the motor back to NM, then so be it. That leaves me without much recourse when it turns into a pissing match of conflicting findings.
I was strongly encouraged by MANY individuals on this board not to return the motor to BZM for teardown analysis for obvious reasons:
Todd errs in being so quick to establish that I have not attempted contact. He has been in communication with GTM, and I provided teardown results in a reasonable time (allowing for a response) before making the matter a pupblic affair. Todd was nice enough to tell potential customers, after discussing the reference thread, that my motor failure was due to a bent valve secondary to a tuner overrev (an extraordinary claim that was unfounded). If I have to post the 14 dyno runs that demonstrate that car never (couldn't) go above 6200 rpms, that should absolve that argument quickly...
I do not have an incredible amount for tolerance for those that do not assume the accountability for an obviously deficient product or service. The response I received from Todd was not what I felt to be appropriate, and further delays the repair process. Hence, the thread was posted.
With regards to questioning my tactics: if you feel I am intimidated into posting this information, you have a gross misunderstanding of your customer in this instance. I have not stooped to an unacceptable level - I have removed all instances of hearsay from this experience (whereas you chose to introduce demeaning comments transferred between parties) and chosen to state that which was factual and objective.
Should Todd choose to pick the motor up from GTM, that is fine. At this point, I have no confidence in his products and fear that continuing to use them only exposes me to greater financial risk.
The findings per GTM are unlikely to be refuted, so a refund post-vendor inspection would be warranted and is again be requested. Failure to do so will resuilt in litigation.
I was not privy to outstanding animosities between GTM and BZM, and if Todd feels that introduces bias into the scenario, such is life. If Sam stated the derogatory comments, understand that I'm only concerned about the end product, not whether anyone gives me warm fuzzies along the way. Sam candidly shared criticisms about the install (missing fender underskirts, loose wiring to the NOS discharge port for the intercooler, missing battery tiedown) and I accept them, though they are irrelevant to the performance of the motor. To suggest that Sam or GTM has purposely found fault throughout the teardown to benefit their financial interests is absurd for a shop of that caliber.
Leaving the car at GTM was a prudent move. Had I taken it to an unknown shop here in AZ, upon listing the same findings I would have been under fire for not taking it to a 'recognized' shop. The machinist at GTM has been in practice for a significant number of years so I instill faith that their assessment is spot-on.
If Todd wants to take the motor back to NM, then so be it. That leaves me without much recourse when it turns into a pissing match of conflicting findings.
I was strongly encouraged by MANY individuals on this board not to return the motor to BZM for teardown analysis for obvious reasons:
- First-party bias; if you up-front deny any possibility of your machinists performing an error (as Todd did), that pretty much removes any faith that they will critically evaluate their own product and potential failure(s).
- Suppose the motor comes back 'resolved' and we encounter the same issues. After all, it's only about $3 - $4k everytime they pull the motor. Having GTM complete the repairs with a written warranty instills much more faith that the consumer will end up with the intended product.
Todd errs in being so quick to establish that I have not attempted contact. He has been in communication with GTM, and I provided teardown results in a reasonable time (allowing for a response) before making the matter a pupblic affair. Todd was nice enough to tell potential customers, after discussing the reference thread, that my motor failure was due to a bent valve secondary to a tuner overrev (an extraordinary claim that was unfounded). If I have to post the 14 dyno runs that demonstrate that car never (couldn't) go above 6200 rpms, that should absolve that argument quickly...
I do not have an incredible amount for tolerance for those that do not assume the accountability for an obviously deficient product or service. The response I received from Todd was not what I felt to be appropriate, and further delays the repair process. Hence, the thread was posted.
With regards to questioning my tactics: if you feel I am intimidated into posting this information, you have a gross misunderstanding of your customer in this instance. I have not stooped to an unacceptable level - I have removed all instances of hearsay from this experience (whereas you chose to introduce demeaning comments transferred between parties) and chosen to state that which was factual and objective.
Should Todd choose to pick the motor up from GTM, that is fine. At this point, I have no confidence in his products and fear that continuing to use them only exposes me to greater financial risk.
The findings per GTM are unlikely to be refuted, so a refund post-vendor inspection would be warranted and is again be requested. Failure to do so will resuilt in litigation.
08-09-2007, 09:43 AM
#166
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Originally Posted by taurran
Other than the fact that I know of some shady business practices that are going on out there in Arizona, and I know that GTM's reputation at this point is golden.
.
.
there you go again
+100 on your post 157 though!
08-09-2007, 09:43 AM
#167
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Originally Posted by doug
Navy sponsors reputations aren't broken by negative threads.. its broken when they fail to respond to claims made about them or fail to fix their mistakes..
look at the negative thread that was made about Sharif.. he handled it great and no one even remembers anything bad about him or his shop.. what they remember is the claims made towards him and how he handled it.
VRT wasn't broken from the 50 negative threads about them.. VRT was broken by not responding to them and you trying to defend them
look at the negative thread that was made about Sharif.. he handled it great and no one even remembers anything bad about him or his shop.. what they remember is the claims made towards him and how he handled it.
VRT wasn't broken from the 50 negative threads about them.. VRT was broken by not responding to them and you trying to defend them
08-09-2007, 09:44 AM
#168
Originally Posted by QuadCam
wow.......a great attorney would love to have you sitting a jurors box.....all he has to do is make you believe him more than the other attorney , and you will side with him.......
08-09-2007, 09:44 AM
#169
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I've followed these threads for a while now. I would like to point out one obvious thing that I do, that many of you should consider when having a shop do ANY WORK for you.
If you plan on building/turb'ing/modifying your motor, do your research, pick a reputable shop, and BUY IT, HAVE IT INSTALLED, TUNED, AND WARRANTEED ALL BY THE SAME PLACE.
This does two things. Supports your local shop. And gives no wiggle room to point the finger when something goes wrong.
If A shop built the motor, B shop installed the turbo, and C shop tuned it. You have three parties pointing the finger at each other when something goes wrong. And its not always necessarily easy to pinpoint the exact problem so pointing the finger is not always a cop-out, but a reasonable thing to do when getting to the bottom of things.
Had one shop done all the work, one shop would have to warranty the problem no matter what. Not trying to lecture anyone.....OP , I feel your pain....it sucks bro....live n learn I guess. Good luck with your car....once she's all done you'll have quite a Z.
If you plan on building/turb'ing/modifying your motor, do your research, pick a reputable shop, and BUY IT, HAVE IT INSTALLED, TUNED, AND WARRANTEED ALL BY THE SAME PLACE.
This does two things. Supports your local shop. And gives no wiggle room to point the finger when something goes wrong.
If A shop built the motor, B shop installed the turbo, and C shop tuned it. You have three parties pointing the finger at each other when something goes wrong. And its not always necessarily easy to pinpoint the exact problem so pointing the finger is not always a cop-out, but a reasonable thing to do when getting to the bottom of things.
Had one shop done all the work, one shop would have to warranty the problem no matter what. Not trying to lecture anyone.....OP , I feel your pain....it sucks bro....live n learn I guess. Good luck with your car....once she's all done you'll have quite a Z.
08-09-2007, 09:45 AM
#170
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Originally Posted by doug
actually no.. i think the general consensus apart from a few close people who are intimate with Don.. is that Todd needs to have the motor back for inspection before a refund should be issued
08-09-2007, 09:46 AM
#171
Originally Posted by taurran
It doesn't to me. It seems Don had exhausted any other posibility of getting this handled by BZM before he posted it here.
2. He could have asked for a neutral 3rd party to evaluate it and gotten agreement from BZM ahead of time.
He did neither. You cannot expect a vendor to blindly accept another shop's examination particularly when there is a financial incentive involved.
BZM has responded as well as I think any vendor can reasonably be expected to.
08-09-2007, 09:47 AM
#172
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Originally Posted by taurran
It doesn't to me. It seems Don had exhausted any other posibility of getting this handled by BZM before he posted it here. Sometimes, a "reputation" is more important that actually helping a customer. This is why people post these threads - to gain public eye and force action by the only thing the shop REALLY cares about - their reputation.
I agree with Don's posting as long as it was warranted, which it seems like it was. Todd, you act like you're doing him a favor by helping him in this manner. In my opinion, you're obligated to after telling people that your products are warrantied. There's no reason why he should have to go to this sort of measure to get something fixed.
I'm sorry, but there's just no way I'd ever consider buying something from BZM. Not because of the mechanical issues with mutliple motors I've seen/heard of coming from your shop, but because the way you've handled them. It's already been verified you've been lying to other customers saying that he just "bent a valve" and trying to make it seem like it was his shop's issue. Obviously it wasn't. Now you're pushing back and making it seem like he did you wrong and you're doing the "right thing" by trying to help him.
Give me a break, at this point it's not about customer service, it's about damage control. I think everyone here realizes that. Don't assume we are so naieve not to...
I agree with Don's posting as long as it was warranted, which it seems like it was. Todd, you act like you're doing him a favor by helping him in this manner. In my opinion, you're obligated to after telling people that your products are warrantied. There's no reason why he should have to go to this sort of measure to get something fixed.
I'm sorry, but there's just no way I'd ever consider buying something from BZM. Not because of the mechanical issues with mutliple motors I've seen/heard of coming from your shop, but because the way you've handled them. It's already been verified you've been lying to other customers saying that he just "bent a valve" and trying to make it seem like it was his shop's issue. Obviously it wasn't. Now you're pushing back and making it seem like he did you wrong and you're doing the "right thing" by trying to help him.
Give me a break, at this point it's not about customer service, it's about damage control. I think everyone here realizes that. Don't assume we are so naieve not to...
08-09-2007, 09:48 AM
#173
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Originally Posted by taurran
I'm sorry, but there's just no way I'd ever consider buying something from BZM. Not because of the mechanical issues with mutliple motors I've seen/heard of coming from your shop, but because the way you've handled them. It's already been verified you've been lying to other customers saying that he just "bent a valve" and trying to make it seem like it was his shop's issue. Obviously it wasn't. Now you're pushing back and making it seem like he did you wrong and you're doing the "right thing" by trying to help him.
Give me a break, at this point it's not about customer service, it's about damage control. I think everyone here realizes that. Don't assume we are so naieve not to...
Jeremy and I have a good working relationship, why do you need to "defend" a situation that panned to to be erroneous?
And warranty: again, ay shop can step in..once another shop dismantles your product, many shops will say any warranty is out the window, I have taken a different approach, I will still rectify the problems with the engine.
08-09-2007, 09:52 AM
#174
Originally Posted by THE TECH
Maybe I've read the thread differently than you, but if you cannot even get your product back to try to warranty it, how do you expect anything to get taken care of? Findings aside, the correct way to get warranty work done is to take it to the manufacturer/vendor of the product. If you buy a Nissan and there is a problem, you don't take it to Subaru to get warranty work done.
08-09-2007, 09:53 AM
#175
Originally Posted by 350zDCalb
wow... are you basing this off of the bearing issue with the motor at PF? the one that I shipped a new crank, set of bearings, etc., even after it wasn't deermined what the issue was, and then the engine was rebuilt and it had a bearing problme again???? Confirming it had nothing to do with me?
Jeremy and I have a good working relationship, why do you need to "defend" a situation that panned to to be erroneous?
And warranty: again, ay shop can step in..once another shop dismantles your product, many shops will say any warranty is out the window, I have taken a different approach, I will still rectify the problems with the engine.
Jeremy and I have a good working relationship, why do you need to "defend" a situation that panned to to be erroneous?
And warranty: again, ay shop can step in..once another shop dismantles your product, many shops will say any warranty is out the window, I have taken a different approach, I will still rectify the problems with the engine.
you will have to forgive him.. he has a problem letting go of things that happened in the past even though the root cause is different from the original findings
08-09-2007, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by taurran
Other than the fact that I know of some shady business practices that are going on out there in Arizona, and I know that GTM's reputation at this point is golden.
I'm willing to take my chances believing one shop over the other in this case.
I'm willing to take my chances believing one shop over the other in this case.
08-09-2007, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by 350zDCalb
wow... are you basing this off of the bearing issue with the motor at PF? the one that I shipped a new crank, set of bearings, etc., even after it wasn't deermined what the issue was, and then the engine was rebuilt and it had a bearing problme again???? Confirming it had nothing to do with me?
Jeremy and I have a good working relationship, why do you need to "defend" a situation that panned to to be erroneous?
And warranty: again, ay shop can step in..once another shop dismantles your product, many shops will say any warranty is out the window, I have taken a different approach, I will still rectify the problems with the engine.
Jeremy and I have a good working relationship, why do you need to "defend" a situation that panned to to be erroneous?
And warranty: again, ay shop can step in..once another shop dismantles your product, many shops will say any warranty is out the window, I have taken a different approach, I will still rectify the problems with the engine.
+1 apesh!t gazzillion!
Todd, for those with common sense and non-bias, you are doing the correct thing here... don't let the "heat" coming from this thread make you feel otherwise...
08-09-2007, 09:56 AM
#178
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Originally Posted by doug
kinda reminds me of the kid with the Carbon Fiber hood who wanted a refund from Jim but wouldn't ship the hood back
08-09-2007, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
i agree eventually engine will have to be sent back, but somethign has to be agreed first