Brian Crower Cams..Setting The Bar!!
01-30-2008, 07:49 PM
#101
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Forgive me...we're east coast, and I'm not living on the forum after hours, I've got a life to tend to outside of work 
No one is treating anyone like a 5 year old either....not sure where that even comes from.
There is no way for me to recommend a cam because we have no details on any part of your setup. What head work has been done (especially at the valves)? Have the heads been on a flowbench and if so, the results? What turbo(s)? What AR(s)? What are the specs/measurements on the exhaust manifold(s) being used? All these considerations are critical in determining the right cam for a particular application. Without using this information, you're basically just guessing.
It may turn out this is a great cam for you, or it may end up that it's not nearly enough, or even too "mild". The cam selection, and the head work to go with it, is the most difficult aspect of any engine build.
There are lots of good articles that can help you understand the role the cams play in the rest of the performance picture. If you're not familiar with all the ins and outs, these would give you a good basis to see how important the proper selection is. From there you'll be in a better position to see all the info you need to know before you select the cam that's right for your needs.
http://www.superchevy.com/technical/...cam/index.html
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...ics/index.html
http://www.chevytalk.com/tech/101/Cam_Theory.html
http://www.chevytalk.com/tech/engine/Cam_Selection.html
hopefully the above is useful - I still refer back to these articles myself all time time for basics. There are far more advanced discussions that can be had as well, but the above will give you a really solid working knowledge to start with.
No one is treating anyone like a 5 year old either....not sure where that even comes from.
There is no way for me to recommend a cam because we have no details on any part of your setup. What head work has been done (especially at the valves)? Have the heads been on a flowbench and if so, the results? What turbo(s)? What AR(s)? What are the specs/measurements on the exhaust manifold(s) being used? All these considerations are critical in determining the right cam for a particular application. Without using this information, you're basically just guessing.
It may turn out this is a great cam for you, or it may end up that it's not nearly enough, or even too "mild". The cam selection, and the head work to go with it, is the most difficult aspect of any engine build.
There are lots of good articles that can help you understand the role the cams play in the rest of the performance picture. If you're not familiar with all the ins and outs, these would give you a good basis to see how important the proper selection is. From there you'll be in a better position to see all the info you need to know before you select the cam that's right for your needs.
http://www.superchevy.com/technical/...cam/index.html
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...ics/index.html
http://www.chevytalk.com/tech/101/Cam_Theory.html
http://www.chevytalk.com/tech/engine/Cam_Selection.html
hopefully the above is useful - I still refer back to these articles myself all time time for basics. There are far more advanced discussions that can be had as well, but the above will give you a really solid working knowledge to start with.
Last edited by Z1 Performance; 01-30-2008 at 08:04 PM.
01-30-2008, 08:03 PM
#102
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Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
Forgive me...we're east coast, and I'm not living on the forum after hours, I've got a life to tend to outside of work
No one is treating anyone like a 5 year old either....not sure where that even comes from.
There is no way for me to recommend a cam because we have no details on any part of your setup. What head work has been done (especially at the valves)? Have the heads been on a flowbench and if so, the results? What turbo(s)? What AR(s)? What are the specs/measurements on the exhaust manifold(s) being used? All these considerations are critical in determining the right cam for a particular application. Without using this information, you're basically just guessing.
It may turn out this is a great cam for you, or it may end up that it's not nearly enough. The cam selection, and the head work to go with it, is the most difficult aspect of any engine build.
No one is treating anyone like a 5 year old either....not sure where that even comes from.
There is no way for me to recommend a cam because we have no details on any part of your setup. What head work has been done (especially at the valves)? Have the heads been on a flowbench and if so, the results? What turbo(s)? What AR(s)? What are the specs/measurements on the exhaust manifold(s) being used? All these considerations are critical in determining the right cam for a particular application. Without using this information, you're basically just guessing.
It may turn out this is a great cam for you, or it may end up that it's not nearly enough. The cam selection, and the head work to go with it, is the most difficult aspect of any engine build.
as i said ..dont take it the wrong way, but you werent saying anything(until now
), it was more like "why are you even asking ?", but anyways apreciate your inputanyways here you go
cases:
1) stock heads with bc stg2 cams
2) +1mm valves, jwt springs.... minor porting that=polishing stock heads
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 01-30-2008 at 08:05 PM.
01-30-2008, 08:11 PM
#103
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I didn't take it personally...but jeez lighten up a bit. At 11 PM at night (now 12), even I need a break sometimes.
The above info you list isn't even remotely enough info to base a decision off of. You need to have the specific info, otherwise it's really just like picking a needle out of a haystack. I know it's not always common for an end user to have this info at their disposal, but this would be a case where it's critical to have the info, otherwise anyones suggestion or recommendation is essentially just a guess as I mentioned. I assume you guys are using an engine builder/machinist to assemble your motors. Whomever is the person actually doing this work for you should have the info available as a result of the work they are doing. That info, paired with the remaining details will give you a complete picture of what cam the engine wants and what you can expect.
I know everyone always wants the easy answer, as if there is some magic cam that doesn't care what all the other specifics are, but unfortunately, there is no such animal. Find the specifics out for your given scenarios and from there you'll be in a good position to make an educated decision, and get educated recommendations. Anyone telling you otherwise is literally blowing smoke up your ***.
The above info you list isn't even remotely enough info to base a decision off of. You need to have the specific info, otherwise it's really just like picking a needle out of a haystack. I know it's not always common for an end user to have this info at their disposal, but this would be a case where it's critical to have the info, otherwise anyones suggestion or recommendation is essentially just a guess as I mentioned. I assume you guys are using an engine builder/machinist to assemble your motors. Whomever is the person actually doing this work for you should have the info available as a result of the work they are doing. That info, paired with the remaining details will give you a complete picture of what cam the engine wants and what you can expect.
I know everyone always wants the easy answer, as if there is some magic cam that doesn't care what all the other specifics are, but unfortunately, there is no such animal. Find the specifics out for your given scenarios and from there you'll be in a good position to make an educated decision, and get educated recommendations. Anyone telling you otherwise is literally blowing smoke up your ***.
Last edited by Z1 Performance; 01-30-2008 at 08:15 PM.
01-30-2008, 08:16 PM
#104
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I would honestly look into the JWT C8.
http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/wol...INCL_REVUP.pdf
They are a 272s, but I guarantee JWT put more time and development into their cams over BC. I talked to Jim about the cam and he says it would work well in either FI or NA applications.
http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/wol...INCL_REVUP.pdf
They are a 272s, but I guarantee JWT put more time and development into their cams over BC. I talked to Jim about the cam and he says it would work well in either FI or NA applications.
01-30-2008, 09:17 PM
#105
Got some more info on our camshafts for you:
GT Motorsports® Turbo Spec camshafts for the VQ35DE
The GTM® Turbo Spec cams were designed by taking a complex set of variables into account. Turbocharger compressor maps and the flow characteristics of the VQ35DE were integral in developing the cam profile. The very specifications that were attained (following several revisions and countless computerized simulation trials) allow for the maximum possible volumetric efficiency over the broadest possible rpm range. Given the high exhaust manifold pressures (that exceed intake/boost pressures) found on turbocharged systems, volumetric efficiency, aside from duration/lift, is also dependent on internal exhaust gas recirculation, which is a function of intake/exhaust cam overlap. The specifications below minimize that overlap, while retaining the highest practical cam duration, to yield the highest possible performance.
Specifications
Stage1:
Intake: 256 deg (stock 238)
Exhaust: 264 deg (stock 240)
Lift: 0.423” (intake and exhaust)
Overlap: 18 deg (at 0.045” lift) – less than stock
Stage 2:
272 degrees @ .012”
232 degrees @.050”
11.00mm Valve lift intake and exhaust
Stage 3:
288 degrees @ .012”
245 degrees @ .050”
11.50mm Valve lift intake and exhaust
GT Motorsports® Stage I NA/Supercharger Spec camshafts for the VQ35DE
The challenges of designing NA cams are much different from turbo cams. Much greater emphasis was placed on intake resonance, which has proportionally greater effect on performance than on turbocharged vehicles. Our research showed that to maximize volumetric efficiency, an asymmetrical lift for intake and exhaust was required, in addition to the asymmetrical cam duration. It was also found that a higher lift on the intake side paired with a slightly lower exhaust side lift, achieved the greatest performance gain on the broadest possible rpm range. Higher overlap in this case is possible, as reversion is not as much of an issue.
Specifications
Stage1:
Intake: 264 deg (stock 238)
Exhaust: 256 deg (stock 240)
Lift: 0.435” (intake) and 0.423” (exhaust)
Overlap: 22 deg (at 0.045” lift) – more than stock
Stage 2:
282/272 degrees @ .012”
240/232 degrees @ .050”
11.50mm/11.00mm Valve lift (intake/exhaust)
Stage 3:
302/292 degrees @ .012”
256/250 degrees @ .050”
11.50mm/11.00mm Valve lift (intake/exhaust)
Note: the cams are cut from chill cast billet (same as the OEM Nissan camshafts) and ground on factory centerline for perfect precision.
Hope this helps,
-George
GT Motorsports
Originally Posted by GTMPOWER.COM
GT Motorsports® Turbo Spec camshafts for the VQ35DE
The GTM® Turbo Spec cams were designed by taking a complex set of variables into account. Turbocharger compressor maps and the flow characteristics of the VQ35DE were integral in developing the cam profile. The very specifications that were attained (following several revisions and countless computerized simulation trials) allow for the maximum possible volumetric efficiency over the broadest possible rpm range. Given the high exhaust manifold pressures (that exceed intake/boost pressures) found on turbocharged systems, volumetric efficiency, aside from duration/lift, is also dependent on internal exhaust gas recirculation, which is a function of intake/exhaust cam overlap. The specifications below minimize that overlap, while retaining the highest practical cam duration, to yield the highest possible performance.
Specifications
Stage1:
Intake: 256 deg (stock 238)
Exhaust: 264 deg (stock 240)
Lift: 0.423” (intake and exhaust)
Overlap: 18 deg (at 0.045” lift) – less than stock
Stage 2:
272 degrees @ .012”
232 degrees @.050”
11.00mm Valve lift intake and exhaust
Stage 3:
288 degrees @ .012”
245 degrees @ .050”
11.50mm Valve lift intake and exhaust
GT Motorsports® Stage I NA/Supercharger Spec camshafts for the VQ35DE
The challenges of designing NA cams are much different from turbo cams. Much greater emphasis was placed on intake resonance, which has proportionally greater effect on performance than on turbocharged vehicles. Our research showed that to maximize volumetric efficiency, an asymmetrical lift for intake and exhaust was required, in addition to the asymmetrical cam duration. It was also found that a higher lift on the intake side paired with a slightly lower exhaust side lift, achieved the greatest performance gain on the broadest possible rpm range. Higher overlap in this case is possible, as reversion is not as much of an issue.
Specifications
Stage1:
Intake: 264 deg (stock 238)
Exhaust: 256 deg (stock 240)
Lift: 0.435” (intake) and 0.423” (exhaust)
Overlap: 22 deg (at 0.045” lift) – more than stock
Stage 2:
282/272 degrees @ .012”
240/232 degrees @ .050”
11.50mm/11.00mm Valve lift (intake/exhaust)
Stage 3:
302/292 degrees @ .012”
256/250 degrees @ .050”
11.50mm/11.00mm Valve lift (intake/exhaust)
Note: the cams are cut from chill cast billet (same as the OEM Nissan camshafts) and ground on factory centerline for perfect precision.
-George
GT Motorsports
Last edited by GTM; 01-30-2008 at 09:23 PM.
01-30-2008, 09:57 PM
#106
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Originally Posted by George@GTM
Got some more info on our camshafts for you:
Hope this helps,
-George
GT Motorsports
Hope this helps,
-George
GT Motorsports
01-31-2008, 04:18 AM
#107
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Originally Posted by RudeG_v2.0
Bump.
Anyone else with BC Stage 2 cams installed that can offer any feedback and reviews??? Is this still the most promising cam for pulling past 7000RPM?
Anyone else with BC Stage 2 cams installed that can offer any feedback and reviews??? Is this still the most promising cam for pulling past 7000RPM?
Here is a dyno graph spun out to 8300rpm
-Greddy TT kit
-stock head except BC STG2 camshafts
-stock intake manifold, and throttle body
100mph = 5800rpms
149mph = 8300rpms
Last edited by Mike Wazowski; 06-20-2008 at 01:05 PM.
01-31-2008, 05:57 AM
#108
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Originally Posted by ForcefedZ
Here is a dyno graph spun out to 8300rpm
-Greddy TT kit
-stock head except BC STG2 camshafts
-stock intake manifold, and throttle body
100mph = 5800rpms
149mph = 8300rpms
-Greddy TT kit
-stock head except BC STG2 camshafts
-stock intake manifold, and throttle body
100mph = 5800rpms
149mph = 8300rpms
....(and all of the replys)
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 01-31-2008 at 06:19 AM.
01-31-2008, 05:59 AM
#109
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Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
I didn't take it personally...but jeez lighten up a bit. At 11 PM at night (now 12), even I need a break sometimes.
The above info you list isn't even remotely enough info to base a decision off of. You need to have the specific info, otherwise it's really just like picking a needle out of a haystack. I know it's not always common for an end user to have this info at their disposal, but this would be a case where it's critical to have the info, otherwise anyones suggestion or recommendation is essentially just a guess as I mentioned. I assume you guys are using an engine builder/machinist to assemble your motors. Whomever is the person actually doing this work for you should have the info available as a result of the work they are doing. That info, paired with the remaining details will give you a complete picture of what cam the engine wants and what you can expect.
I know everyone always wants the easy answer, as if there is some magic cam that doesn't care what all the other specifics are, but unfortunately, there is no such animal. Find the specifics out for your given scenarios and from there you'll be in a good position to make an educated decision, and get educated recommendations. Anyone telling you otherwise is literally blowing smoke up your ***.
The above info you list isn't even remotely enough info to base a decision off of. You need to have the specific info, otherwise it's really just like picking a needle out of a haystack. I know it's not always common for an end user to have this info at their disposal, but this would be a case where it's critical to have the info, otherwise anyones suggestion or recommendation is essentially just a guess as I mentioned. I assume you guys are using an engine builder/machinist to assemble your motors. Whomever is the person actually doing this work for you should have the info available as a result of the work they are doing. That info, paired with the remaining details will give you a complete picture of what cam the engine wants and what you can expect.
I know everyone always wants the easy answer, as if there is some magic cam that doesn't care what all the other specifics are, but unfortunately, there is no such animal. Find the specifics out for your given scenarios and from there you'll be in a good position to make an educated decision, and get educated recommendations. Anyone telling you otherwise is literally blowing smoke up your ***.
so giving all of those variables that you just said....lets make it a Lil more easier then... STOCK heads... build bottom ...all u wanna do is add cams, what do you suggest?
01-31-2008, 06:11 AM
#110
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Originally Posted by ForcefedZ
Here is a dyno graph spun out to 8300rpm
-Greddy TT kit
-stock head except BC STG2 camshafts
-stock intake manifold, and throttle body
100mph = 5800rpms
149mph = 8300rpms
-Greddy TT kit
-stock head except BC STG2 camshafts
-stock intake manifold, and throttle body
100mph = 5800rpms
149mph = 8300rpms
You got b@lls spinning to 8k on stock springs
Bc states these cams are good to 7800rpms you just shed some light on those cams. Iam glad Iam getting them with the GTM springs
01-31-2008, 06:41 AM
#111
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
yeah i realized it was late for you sorry...
so giving all of those variables that you just said....lets make it a Lil more easier then... STOCK heads... build bottom ...all u wanna do is add cams, what do you suggest?
so giving all of those variables that you just said....lets make it a Lil more easier then... STOCK heads... build bottom ...all u wanna do is add cams, what do you suggest?
I don't want to be rude, but again, you need to fill in all the blanks from the questions above. Without all that info, it's really a meaningless conversation. I'd really recommend you consult your engine builder as he can better fill in the blanks with the details you provide him
Last edited by Z1 Performance; 01-31-2008 at 06:46 AM.
01-31-2008, 07:15 AM
#112
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Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
I don't want to be rude, but again, you need to fill in all the blanks from the questions above. Without all that info, it's really a meaningless conversation. I'd really recommend you consult your engine builder as he can better fill in the blanks with the details you provide him
i know what i am personally suing...mainly trying to see what you would recomend for most users(just adding cams to stock valvetrain).
There is no way for me to recommend a cam because we have no details on any part of your setup. What head work has been done (especially at the valves)?
Have the heads been on a flowbench and if so, the results?
What turbo(s)? What AR(s)? What are the specs/measurements on the exhaust manifold(s) being used?
case b) stock ex-manifolds w/ gt35r .82 ar
01-31-2008, 07:22 AM
#113
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I'd sooner spend the money massaging the stock heads, especially at the valve seat area and ports, vs using any cam on an otherwise stock head - your money would go way further.
01-31-2008, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
I'd sooner spend the money massaging the stock heads, especially at the valve seat area and ports, vs using any cam on an otherwise stock head - your money would go way further.
The stock VQ35 heads flow better then "some" ported 2JZ heads. I'll see if I can dig up some actual data for comparison. Everything needs work together like you're saying. No sense in having a radical cam, if the valve seats are pruding .1/4'" in to the port
But that doesn't seem to be the case with the VQ35 heads.
Last edited by ForcefedZ; 01-31-2008 at 08:14 AM.
01-31-2008, 07:40 AM
#115
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Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
I'd sooner spend the money massaging the stock heads, especially at the valve seat area and ports, vs using any cam on an otherwise stock head - your money would go way further.
01-31-2008, 07:57 AM
#116
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I dont see why it is so hard to answer the question. Maybe if someone was going for a custom grind, but hell it is not like there is a ton of off the shelf options out there. If you plan on reving it out a good bit, then you need a decently sized cam. I wouldnt put in a 264 then try and make power to 8k....
01-31-2008, 08:03 AM
#117
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Originally Posted by __jb
An honest answer from someone that does sell cams, but probably does not sell head work or engine machining.
we dont offer any engine building/machining services of any kind
01-31-2008, 08:14 AM
#118
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werd...but...... ok what CAMS would you recomend ... with the Cosworth heads then:
Originally Posted by cosworth website
CNC Ported/machine finished ports - New OE Castings
Hand blended finish work
Intake 19% Increased Flow (max)
Exhaust 22% Increased Flow (max)
4-angle Inlet Valve job
3-angle & radiused Exhaust Valve job
Valves are lapped
Back-Cut Inlet Valves
Heads are Ultra Sonic cleaned prior to assembly
Heads are Serialized and sport a machined Cosworth logo
+1mm Stainless Steel Intake Valves (1800 degrees max.)
+1mm Inconel Exhaust Valves (2400 degrees max.)
Performance Valve Springs
Titanium Retainers
Hardened Steel Spring Platforms
Knife Edge port divider
Hand blended finish work
Intake 19% Increased Flow (max)
Exhaust 22% Increased Flow (max)
4-angle Inlet Valve job
3-angle & radiused Exhaust Valve job
Valves are lapped
Back-Cut Inlet Valves
Heads are Ultra Sonic cleaned prior to assembly
Heads are Serialized and sport a machined Cosworth logo
+1mm Stainless Steel Intake Valves (1800 degrees max.)
+1mm Inconel Exhaust Valves (2400 degrees max.)
Performance Valve Springs
Titanium Retainers
Hardened Steel Spring Platforms
Knife Edge port divider
using:
case a) greddy tt kit with 18gs
case b) stock ex-manifolds w/ gt35r .82 ar
01-31-2008, 08:54 AM
#119
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like I said, I would recommend you consult with your machinist. I've never had a set of Cosworth heads on a flow bench to know what they do (the info provided above is very vague, really doesn't say anything, and rightfully so..if I were Cosworth selling my own heads, I wouldn't reveal all the specs either).
Don't take this as me dancing around the question, I'm not - the easy answer of "just use xx brand" doesn't exist and the person best equipped to make such an important recommendation is an engine builder.
Don't take this as me dancing around the question, I'm not - the easy answer of "just use xx brand" doesn't exist and the person best equipped to make such an important recommendation is an engine builder.
01-31-2008, 09:11 AM
#120
Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
like I said, I would recommend you consult with your machinist. I've never had a set of Cosworth heads on a flow bench to know what they do (the info provided above is very vague, really doesn't say anything, and rightfully so..if I were Cosworth selling my own heads, I wouldn't reveal all the specs either).
Don't take this as me dancing around the question, I'm not - the easy answer of "just use xx brand" doesn't exist and the person best equipped to make such an important recommendation is an engine builder.
Don't take this as me dancing around the question, I'm not - the easy answer of "just use xx brand" doesn't exist and the person best equipped to make such an important recommendation is an engine builder.
http://www.cosworth.com/uploads/1147892186.pdf
Now can you answer the question??? LOL!!!
Last edited by RudeG_v2.0; 01-31-2008 at 09:14 AM.