Brandon@Forged

I knew they sold one w/o fuel management. When you do a group buy, you get a better price, the more people, the better price, and that comment was kind of saying don't turn people away so you will get a better price. I am stating the truth, I haven't researched this kit at all, so no one flame on me that I am wrong, I am stating what I have seen, which is more than some people here, otherwise people wouldn't be asking this question. (This is to everyone, not you Jesse).

jesseenglish

I think most of the people who are getting in on the group buy are ones who've already done their research and were on the fence.

I understand now, my point is that with your posts you've confused people. I want to avoid answering the same questions over and over again. Not a flame, but PLEASE if you don't know how the system works don't talk about it like it's a fact because people will believe you.

jesseenglish

Here's a good read on the typical operation of an FMU

http://www.superchargersonline.com/content.asp?id=97

Keep in mind this is not how the Procharger kit works, but it is similar.

Brandon@Forged

I read somewhere on this forum this guy said that the injectors keep applying the same amount of fuel regardless.

jesseenglish

Well if some guy said it, it must be true I'm just messing with you.

Think of it like a garden hose, the more you turn the spigot the more water comes out. The hole it's coming out of doesn't change size it's just coming out faster.

The Procharger setup uses an additional fuel pump to provide increased pressure to the fuel rail. The ECU can only keep the injectors open for a certain amount of time so you've got to get more fuel in there during that limited period. Turn the spigot up and voila.... more fuel to burn.

ForceInduction

Boomer - I will try to get the picture and the routing of the intercooler for you, but I know this will take a while. In regards to the air flow, I really have no clue what your talking about, but if you can explain please let me know and I'll try to help you. You are right about high compression engines and heat being the factor. Unlike the turbo setup you had on your previous car a s/c runs more efficient and cool, plus this is a low boost intercooled kit, so heat is not much of a big factor. The best way to describe this is by this...after driving your car, with a turbo you cannot open the hood and sit on it, since it runs off exhaust gases and it will be hot, but with a s/c you can open the hood and sit on it since runs off the belts, that's how much more cooler they run.

Z33Fan - They have two kits. One comes complete and the other comes without the fuel components, which is the Tuner kit. The complete one will come with a larger fuel pump and an electronic FMU. The ECU will not get adjusted but I'm sure the kit will have a MAP sensor bypass which will bypass signals under boost to the ECU making it run properly. The ECU does not need other adjustments to prevent detonation, but if you want to fine tune your vehicle to get extra HP out of it, a custom chip will help you out. You should also run colder spark plugs around one heat range colder to help avoid detonation...I never liked platinum spark plugs on FI cars. On a stock bottom end I would not want to go above boost levels of 8-9 psi. 7psi is a safe level especially intercooled boost. Most Procharger s/c systems are set at 8-9psi, but with this car they only ran 7psi. So there is a reason why they run that psi level.

Joust75 - Procharger has two s/c kits for this car. Ones a tuner kit and the other is the complete s/c system. The tuner kits will NOT include the FMU or the larger fuel pump. These Tuner kits are designed for two people in mind. Ones that have this stuff already, and the other are those who seek to pick their own fuel management system, like larger injectors or FMU, a larger fuel pump…maybe even a custom chip. The other s/c kit they have is 100% complete where it will have additional fuel management for the additional boost.

Hope this helps you guys out a little.

Boomer

FI, I wasn't trying to be complicated about it, Ijust wanted to know where the intercooler gets its air from. Where is it mounted? Behind the radiator?

MustGoFastR

iTrader: (13)

Question: So how much is too much for the VQ? I'm interested in the ATI Procharger setup for my car and I'm also interested in the Crawford plenum, as I assume it would compliment the s/c nicely, though at that point, I'm getting a bit concerned for the engine. According to what Greddy and Top Secret are learning, the VQ is good to 400hp; beyond that, stronger rods are needed at the very least. With the Procharger and the plenum, am I pushing it? I also have a grounding kit, if that makes any difference, and will likely keep the exhaust stock, though a future upgrade there is always a possibility. The car is my daily driver and I want it to last. I like the idea of turning it into an M3 killer, but don't really want to mess with internal upgrades or drastically reduce engine life. Any opinions? Basically, I know I want the Procharger, though it may be a year or so before I get one to ensure the car is well broken in and I've seen some long term reports, but would the plenum (or other mods) be a safe addition on top of the s/c or should I just stick with the s/c alone?

OK, reading back through this, I realize this is almost impossible to answer, since we're dealing with new components, untested over the long run, but I'd still like any opinions.

GaryK

I think an option for those that want the ATI kit, but have concerns about the engine and internal components over 400 hp, would be to run the kit with pulleys that reduce the boost pressure. I don't know if these pulleys are readily available, but the kits fmu setup should still work since it adjusts fuel pressure based on the boost. You could run at a reduced power output for now, while we wait and see what the limits really are. Then if/when the motor is proven at the higher power output, it would just be a matter of swapping pulleys again.

ForceInduction

Boomer – no worries, I don’t mind helping you out on this. The intercooler is a 3-core sheet metal intercooler that mounts in front of the radiator. The s/c does not get air from the intercooler, what the intercooler will do is cool down the air coming form the s/c to the engine, it works just like a radiator. The intercooler will get it’s air from the s/c compressor that is located right on the top right hand side of the engine bay.

MustGoFasteR – It’s really hard to say how much is to much, but it is safe to say that 7 psi is not to much =) Gary is right how you can always run lower boost by switching out the pulleys, if you are really concern about the limits. We have not dyno ran the s/c with the Crawford plenum so it’s hard to determine the results of this plenum with the s/c. Most likely by adding the Crawford the plenum will make the supercharger lose boost, do to increasing the air flow of the manifold. This may make the car run lean, so extra tuning is required.


BTW. The Procharger ran a 13.2 with 5psi and the track speed was 109 mph. So it looks like this kit will get you into the 12's.

MustGoFastR

iTrader: (13)

Ah, I hadn't thought of it working that way. If this is the case, it looks like I'll just want to skip the plenum and go with the Procharger kit by itself. Thanks! Now I can buy a V1; I'll bet IT will compliment the s/c just fine!

Keep us posted, though, if you do happen to test the Procharger on a car w/ the plenum. Crawford is saying that the front cylinders are getting something like 30% less air than the rears, though it just doesn't make a lot of sense for Nissan to have designed it that way as the front cylinders would be running WAY too rich unless the ECM knows about it and compensates (in which case adding the plenum would mess with that aspect of it); the car obviously runs fine in stock form.

msink

In addition to the obvious dyno plot everyone wants to see, I'd like to see 3 other parameters plotted against RPM as well.

1. Boost Pressure
2. Fuel Pressure
3. A/F Ratio

I'd like to see how the boost responds to increased RPM, and how little of there is down low. I'd like to see or know the pressure ratio of the FMU, how much fuel pressure is increased for each PSI of boost, so we know the max fuel pressure this setup generates compared to the stock level. And then the A/F ratio curve, just to see how rich or lean the kit runs. A 4th paramter of intake temps after the IC would also be very nice to see, and even a 5th of the pre IC temps to messure IC effectiveness. Pro Charger should be the one providing such info, any chance someone can get them to publish these?

Thanks,

Mark

ForceInduction

Msink – Procharger does not have these dyno plots and parameters that you have posted below. Usually a request like this is for engine tuners looking to make a custom chip so they can fine tune the system. A request like this looks like you will need to get it from an engine tuner that has one of these systems installed or this may just be something that you need to provide on your own vehicle, esp. since every vehicle is going to react differently to the supercharger.

TXSTYLE

iTrader: (1)

I too am INCREASINGLY becoming more interested in this system!

Obviously my concerns are the usual: RELIABILITY & LONGEVITY...

Although........I just got off the horn with a mechanic buddy of mine who specializes in Sport Compacts, Racing, F-I, rebuilds, etc. and the whole 9 yards. I basically ran down the stats of this kit:
· Procharger’s new self-contained C-2 head unit
· Cast aluminum brackets
· Supercharger drive system includes all necessary belts and pulleys
· High flow fuel pump and FMU (Fuel Management Unit)
· By-pass valve
· Air-to-Air intercooler
· High flow air filter

And he was VERY optimistic about the install and durability due to the low boost. His only concern and one I forgot about was the "Fuel Management". As you know, we run a 'returnless system' not to mention this kit did not mention any type of 'timing' controls! So that would limit the system considerably if you wanted to get frisky and dial up or get on it hard regularly. BUT! He also stated that if the ECU/ECM could be 'flashed or reprogrammed' that would/could resolve that concern. And the obvious only other down-side of a centrifugal blower is the "build-up" of boost! It comes on as rpm's rise and thus peak hp/torque won't be readily available until the upper range... Where say a twin-turbo could give you max-boost as low as 2,500rpm and keep you there on up to redline. But hey, for 4 - 5k and another 1k labor (as oppossed to probably 10k at least plus labor) I AM VERY, VERY Tempted........

ForceInduction

TXSTYLE – This is why Procharger came out with two types of systems. One is the compete system for those who do not require fine tuning and just want to bolt on and go...and the other is the “Tuner” kits for those who seek their own fuel management and tuning. The Tuner kits sounds like what you are looking for. Since the Tuner kit does not included any tuning accessories like the FMU and fuel pump you can pretty much build your own Fuel management system. You can get a larger fuel pump, larger fuel injectors, a boost retard box or better yet a custom chip flashed. This will fine-tune the s/c to your car…so that’s why it sounds like you might want to look at the tuner kit instead. Also, one reason why the timing control is not really needed is because this is intercooled boost. Superchargers tend to run cooler than turbo’s and with the s/c and the intercooler it will not make as much heat than the turbo setup will. So less heat means more timing and less timing that needs to be retard under boost. But, yes a twin-turbo setup is very sweet, but as you and I know it is very costly, esp. when there is a limit of boost you can run on a stock bottom end. All-n-all the s/c is just a more sweeter deal, don’t matter how you look at it.

msink

Well, I dont think the 3 parameters are going to be too different, in fact, they better be pretty rock solid across different installations, or else the reliability is not going to be there. Do you really expect Boost pressure, Fuel Pressure, and A/F ratio to vary so much? I hope not.

Boost pressure is related to RPM, so that should be pretty steady. Fuel pressure is realted to boost, and is also some ratio selected by ProCharger. If the FMU as a 2:1 ratio, they raise fuel pressure 2 psi for every 1 psi of boost. I dont see why they couldnt provide this basic info. And if they dont know what the A/F ratio is doing, well, then I would not suggest buying the kit. I think any company selling kits like this has the info, and a lot more, its just a matter of getting them to release it. Nothing here should be specific to each installation. Guess we'll have to wait and see what happens down the road, maybe someone can provide something similar.

Mark

TXSTYLE

iTrader: (1)

Ahhhhhhhhh! Great reply FI. Glad you reminded me of the 'intercooled boost'. But in your opinion, which do you think would be more or less "daily/reliable-friendly"? Going with their pre-pckg deal or the tuner kit and beef up the said parts?

ForceInduction

I think the main reason why a lot of companies don't release this information is because of fear that another company will use it to their advantage. Nothing is worst than doing your own research and development on a kit and having some other company copy it to a par. I can see why it is very difficult to obtain this information from the manufacture. It may also be hard to get this form an engine tuner that makes his own chips too. No one wants his own stuff copied.

ForceInduction

The complete package is good for the people who don't want to mess with the hassle of finding their own setup and tuners. It’s perfect for the people seeking a true bolt on application without having to find the right parts and tuner. Now if it was up to me, I always like the tuner kits because it gives me the freedom to buy what I want and it enables me to maximize the HP gain. The only problem with the tuner kits is that it’s not a true bolt on kit where you can just install it and it will work…you actually have to pick your own fuel management and tuner. I always have been a big fan of ditching the FMU to get larger injectors and to custom flash the chips or hook up a Stand alone systems to maximize the HP potential. It’s a little more work, but the results are well worth it.