--->jkenefic version 3.0 build<---
06-04-2008, 03:15 PM
#121
Originally Posted by Philthy
I'm having a 'few' mods done to my EVO while I'm away on my trip, and the first thing that the big name shops (Full-Race, AMS, Buschur) strongly suggested L19 studs with the stock head gasket... The L19's are so widely used on that platform that they can be purchased for ~$200, still double the price of the standard ARps $100 - but a great value vs having to replace the headgasket down the road...
I'm glad people are testing less expensive alternatives, and more importantly providing details on the exact hardware, but call me conservative, I would still recommend at least L19's for our platform at this point.
I'm glad people are testing less expensive alternatives, and more importantly providing details on the exact hardware, but call me conservative, I would still recommend at least L19's for our platform at this point.
06-04-2008, 04:20 PM
#122
I agree with Phil that the L19's are still a worthy investment on the VQ. I'm getting the L19's and HKS gasket with my build. It's not that much more money for piece of mind IMO. Considering my power goals and intended track use... I just can't justify pinching pennies on something that is a relatively inexpensive part of the motor build to begin with.
The L19's have proven themselves on other platforms running big power and on IP's 1000+ whp Z with 8 second passes. I don't think it is time to dismiss the need for the L19 altogether.
I think the HR studs sound promising for guys on a budget who are doing a mild to moderate build under 600 whp with street driving being the primary use. And obviously, that is an overwhelming majority of the FI guys in this community.
So the OP's sharing of this info is very cool, significant and applicable to a large portion of this community.
But I think the L19 is still prudent for anyone running big power or tracking their car on a regular/frequent basis.
Just my
.
The L19's have proven themselves on other platforms running big power and on IP's 1000+ whp Z with 8 second passes. I don't think it is time to dismiss the need for the L19 altogether.
I think the HR studs sound promising for guys on a budget who are doing a mild to moderate build under 600 whp with street driving being the primary use. And obviously, that is an overwhelming majority of the FI guys in this community.
So the OP's sharing of this info is very cool, significant and applicable to a large portion of this community. But I think the L19 is still prudent for anyone running big power or tracking their car on a regular/frequent basis.
Just my
.
Last edited by RudeG_v2.0; 06-04-2008 at 04:26 PM.
06-04-2008, 04:22 PM
#123
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Piggy backing on what rcdash, Philthy, and Sharif are saying here...
I would like to see the clamping force provided by each bolt solution as well. I am sure that the L19 will yield the highest results when comparing OE diameter bolts/studs... I am also sure that ultimately for maximum horsepower capacity the L19 would win out.
The other platforms mentioned that use the L19 with great success have one key difference... The blocks are cast iron, not allum. Which when doing my research on TTY swayed me to try them on this build. For example, the LS1, 2,6,7 GM V8 guys are using TTY bolts in their builds up to and over 900whp. These blocks are allum like the VQ. The thing that interested me the most was how the TTY bolts displace the clamping load with changes in pressure and heat vs a conventional ARP stud.
Here is one of the articles that lead me to believe that this would work for the power levels I wanted to achieve...
http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/A...ing_heads.aspx
and one more that is a little more involved, but helps to explain why the manufactures use TTY and may suggest why over time we see problems with other types of fasteners...
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...uetoangle.aspx
At this point I have proved the the HR bolts will hold the power. The next test is will they continue to hold the power over a extended period of time...
I would like to see the clamping force provided by each bolt solution as well. I am sure that the L19 will yield the highest results when comparing OE diameter bolts/studs... I am also sure that ultimately for maximum horsepower capacity the L19 would win out.
The other platforms mentioned that use the L19 with great success have one key difference... The blocks are cast iron, not allum. Which when doing my research on TTY swayed me to try them on this build. For example, the LS1, 2,6,7 GM V8 guys are using TTY bolts in their builds up to and over 900whp. These blocks are allum like the VQ. The thing that interested me the most was how the TTY bolts displace the clamping load with changes in pressure and heat vs a conventional ARP stud.
Here is one of the articles that lead me to believe that this would work for the power levels I wanted to achieve...
http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/A...ing_heads.aspx
and one more that is a little more involved, but helps to explain why the manufactures use TTY and may suggest why over time we see problems with other types of fasteners...
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...uetoangle.aspx
At this point I have proved the the HR bolts will hold the power. The next test is will they continue to hold the power over a extended period of time...
Last edited by MADScientist; 06-04-2008 at 04:42 PM.
06-04-2008, 05:13 PM
#125
torque to yield bolts (aka angle torque or stretch bolts)
- and after reading some of those links you posted joe, it's not just clamping force at a point in time, but the force over time, after many heat cycles that counts as well - as well as how even the clamping force is across the aluminum block. I can see how a lack of uniformity of clamping force could cause focal loss of clamping - and loss at any point is just as good as a complete failure...
- and after reading some of those links you posted joe, it's not just clamping force at a point in time, but the force over time, after many heat cycles that counts as well - as well as how even the clamping force is across the aluminum block. I can see how a lack of uniformity of clamping force could cause focal loss of clamping - and loss at any point is just as good as a complete failure...
Last edited by rcdash; 06-04-2008 at 05:17 PM.
06-04-2008, 05:51 PM
#126
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That is why I am wondering why a lot of the sleeved block guys don't have issues right away, it is 10,000 miles later when they have a failure...
06-04-2008, 09:13 PM
#127
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Originally Posted by jkenefic
That is why I am wondering why a lot of the sleeved block guys don't have issues right away, it is 10,000 miles later when they have a failure...
there are too many factors in the failed sleeved blocks, specially over the span of 10k miles and different setup, drivers, etc.....in most cases bad machining, and also not running a proper ems, etc.
Dismissing them over a bad experience isn't the way to go, and IMO the idea that they don't work because a few thing its just going to pussify the VQ cause to even think about approaching the power levels of the 2jz, despite how great just pistons and rods alone have done, sleeves will be needed.
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 06-04-2008 at 09:20 PM.
06-04-2008, 09:15 PM
#128
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
there are too many factors in the failed sleeved blocks, in most cases bad machining, and also not running a proper ems, etc.
Dismissing them over a bad experience isnt the way to go, and IMo the idea that they dont work becuase a few thing its jsut going to pussify the VQ cause to even think about aproaching the powerlevels of the 2jz, despite how great jsut pistons and rods have done, sleeves will be needed.
Dismissing them over a bad experience isnt the way to go, and IMo the idea that they dont work becuase a few thing its jsut going to pussify the VQ cause to even think about aproaching the powerlevels of the 2jz, despite how great jsut pistons and rods have done, sleeves will be needed.
06-05-2008, 03:47 AM
#129
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
there are too many factors in the failed sleeved blocks, specially over the span of 10k miles and different setup, drivers, etc.....in most cases bad machining, and also not running a proper ems, etc.
Dismissing them over a bad experience isn't the way to go, and IMO the idea that they don't work because a few thing its just going to pussify the VQ cause to even think about approaching the power levels of the 2jz, despite how great just pistons and rods alone have done, sleeves will be needed.
Dismissing them over a bad experience isn't the way to go, and IMO the idea that they don't work because a few thing its just going to pussify the VQ cause to even think about approaching the power levels of the 2jz, despite how great just pistons and rods alone have done, sleeves will be needed.
lol
06-05-2008, 04:30 AM
#131
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Between this thread and Forcefed's thread I'm getting alot of great information and ideas for my build in the future. Just wanna say thanks to you guys for taking some chances and providing us with the results.
You are welcome... Someone has to do it! Looks like we drew the short straws. Next time it is someone elses turn! lol
06-05-2008, 04:43 AM
#133
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I'll be happy to be a test mule when "my ship comes in" lol.
Seriously though, you mentioned that the HR head bolts worked with some "minor modification". Would you mind sharing what kind of modification is neccessary?
Seriously though, you mentioned that the HR head bolts worked with some "minor modification". Would you mind sharing what kind of modification is neccessary?
06-05-2008, 04:59 AM
#134
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Sorry if this is a repost but didn't see it anywhere else in the thread. If it is I'll delete it. But I was searching a little on da google and came accross this diagram that helps explain how the HR headgasket is more efficient for high performance applications like FI
http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/wol...HEAD_BOLTS.pdf
http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/wol...HEAD_BOLTS.pdf
06-05-2008, 05:05 AM
#135
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Originally Posted by DanielW
Sorry if this is a repost but didn't see it anywhere else in the thread. If it is I'll delete it. But I was searching a little on da google and came accross this diagram that helps explain how the HR headgasket is more efficient for high performance applications like FI
http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/wol...HEAD_BOLTS.pdf
http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/wol...HEAD_BOLTS.pdf
Technically posted earlier but it's such a great find that it doesn't matter
06-05-2008, 05:34 AM
#137
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by looking at the pdf file and looking at the differences in the headgaskets, how does the hr head gasket get the water to and from the head? It looks like a lot of the ports are blocked off.
06-05-2008, 09:35 AM
#138
Originally Posted by jkenefic
That is why I am wondering why a lot of the sleeved block guys don't have issues right away, it is 10,000 miles later when they have a failure...
06-05-2008, 11:48 AM
#140
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Originally Posted by jkenefic
And when I say reliable I mean on par with other platforms making 1000whp...
i think it will, i hope... i had darton themselves sleeved my block, th rest of the machininc intense did it in-house
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 06-05-2008 at 11:53 AM.