interesting bad built motor thread on G35driver.......
That is what George wants, for the thread to be locked and eventually it will go away.
When I spoke to Sam, not one time, did he say anything like this:
*It is possible the block surface was not clean/machined properly, therefore causing a HG fialure which led to overheating, etc
*It is possible the bearing clearances were off
*It is possible that the cylinder machining was off, and the pistons expanded just enough to cause scuffing o fthe walls and pistons
Instead he said....
*I have been doing this for XXX yeras since I came to this country, it cant be that
*I employ the best engine builders and machininsts, we havent seen a failure to date (yeah right)
*XXXX shop is no engine builder, WE are, we do the machining, we do the assembly. Anybody can put a motor together, we do it form start to finish.
*the tuning was likely off, detonation can lead to head lift
*I am not saying I know EVERYTHING, but I don tbelieve the oil analysis prove anything
And here is the kicker, since George brought it up earlier I think I;ll answer it...
Why did my motor not go back to GTM??? Why did I want NOTHING to do with GTM when it failed?
It didnt go back because after discussing with MY TUNER and the person who I trusted, respected and built my car, I was advised to stay away from any GTM motors, especially sleeved ones.
Sharif was put in a horrible place with my failure, it wasnt the first GTM failure, but like I told him, I paid him for the block, if I pay company A for a block and they build it or outsource it to company B (GTM), when something goes wrong I expect who I paid to cover it. And cover it he did by helping me get back on the road taking some of the hit for something that wasnt truly his fault-he knows it, I know it, but politics of the forums wont allow him to say it, but I sure will.
And on the phone I told Sam what I just wrote above, and he acted soooo surprised to hear that, and refused to believe that GTM wasnt an option that was advised to me. Bull$hit, he damn well knows it, Sharif sucked it all up and told Sam "its not on your end" - so George stop bringing something up you dont know anything about.
Obviously they are friends and do business and people arent being honest with each other. I'll also be honest and say this, at the expense of burning a brudge with Sharif if its not already burned... I knew Sam and Sharif were friends, I had made the mistake of telling Sharif my concerns on this block and the metal contents, and if they kept getting worse (this was before the failure) that I was going to post my findings online. Sharif assured me the analysis was fine. I am a very straightforward person, anbody that has dealt with me can verify, I even told Sharif that I felt like if he had found a plausible cause he wouldnt share it with me for 2 reasons...and this upset Sharif when I told him, understandably so.
1. He is Sams friend and did business with him, why $hit in your backyard so to say? In other words why blame Sam....
2. I felt like he was trying to keep this negative press off of GTM due to what I had told him, well low and behold Romey had issues and spoke up so its time to unveil the real GTM to the public.
Like somebody said earlier about fighting off 10 nuthuggers even when they are right, had I posted my results on my own, some people would have believed me, but it wouldnt have had an impact. Now that there are more people speaking out, from different areas, with different driving habits, tuners, EMS, etc, yet the symptoms and engine builder are the same, now we see the problem.
When I spoke to Sam, not one time, did he say anything like this:
*It is possible the block surface was not clean/machined properly, therefore causing a HG fialure which led to overheating, etc
*It is possible the bearing clearances were off
*It is possible that the cylinder machining was off, and the pistons expanded just enough to cause scuffing o fthe walls and pistons
Instead he said....
*I have been doing this for XXX yeras since I came to this country, it cant be that
*I employ the best engine builders and machininsts, we havent seen a failure to date (yeah right)
*XXXX shop is no engine builder, WE are, we do the machining, we do the assembly. Anybody can put a motor together, we do it form start to finish.
*the tuning was likely off, detonation can lead to head lift
*I am not saying I know EVERYTHING, but I don tbelieve the oil analysis prove anything
And here is the kicker, since George brought it up earlier I think I;ll answer it...
Why did my motor not go back to GTM??? Why did I want NOTHING to do with GTM when it failed?
It didnt go back because after discussing with MY TUNER and the person who I trusted, respected and built my car, I was advised to stay away from any GTM motors, especially sleeved ones.
Sharif was put in a horrible place with my failure, it wasnt the first GTM failure, but like I told him, I paid him for the block, if I pay company A for a block and they build it or outsource it to company B (GTM), when something goes wrong I expect who I paid to cover it. And cover it he did by helping me get back on the road taking some of the hit for something that wasnt truly his fault-he knows it, I know it, but politics of the forums wont allow him to say it, but I sure will.
And on the phone I told Sam what I just wrote above, and he acted soooo surprised to hear that, and refused to believe that GTM wasnt an option that was advised to me. Bull$hit, he damn well knows it, Sharif sucked it all up and told Sam "its not on your end" - so George stop bringing something up you dont know anything about.
Obviously they are friends and do business and people arent being honest with each other. I'll also be honest and say this, at the expense of burning a brudge with Sharif if its not already burned... I knew Sam and Sharif were friends, I had made the mistake of telling Sharif my concerns on this block and the metal contents, and if they kept getting worse (this was before the failure) that I was going to post my findings online. Sharif assured me the analysis was fine. I am a very straightforward person, anbody that has dealt with me can verify, I even told Sharif that I felt like if he had found a plausible cause he wouldnt share it with me for 2 reasons...and this upset Sharif when I told him, understandably so.
1. He is Sams friend and did business with him, why $hit in your backyard so to say? In other words why blame Sam....
2. I felt like he was trying to keep this negative press off of GTM due to what I had told him, well low and behold Romey had issues and spoke up so its time to unveil the real GTM to the public.
Like somebody said earlier about fighting off 10 nuthuggers even when they are right, had I posted my results on my own, some people would have believed me, but it wouldnt have had an impact. Now that there are more people speaking out, from different areas, with different driving habits, tuners, EMS, etc, yet the symptoms and engine builder are the same, now we see the problem.
Last edited by Alberto; Oct 28, 2008 at 01:33 PM.
you should know rome are good friend and have been in touch form the very begining. like i said, i know you have no control over things and if you reread my post you will notice i did not throw YOU under the bus, and i dont doubt if you had more say would have tried to help him out in a better way...you non-boss is who has shown he had as much an agenda as he said mrc had.You can have 180 engines with no issues but if you dont show you care more about the customer than making just an extra penny(car to reinburse rome the cost of his stg1 cams yet?) and blame it on everybody else it shows a bad arrogant attitude. You know, its better PR to show you are human and non the "godlike" "we the only one dat can do it" attitude
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; Oct 28, 2008 at 01:41 PM.
I remember just the other day we were cool, now you too have some type of anger towards GTM. Hows your car coming along btw?
Anyways, you might have missed this part of the post, since it was long, I do agree:
The engine was installed, tuned, and made great power.
The engine came back to MRC low on oil, Sam told Julian if the engine was ran low on oil it had to be fixed. Julian sent the engine to a 3rd party months later instead of sending it back to Sam.
So how can Sam warranty an engine if it is never sent back to him for inspection? We are suppose to trust a 3rd party shop with out us having any say in who the 3rd party is and take their word as gospel?
I am not debating the facts posted on the engine, and the damage done to the engine. What we want to know how the damage occurred.
It's easy to say that all these issues were related to machining, and they may be - we won't know until we look at it, but what about the following:
The engine made big power with no issues.
Car leaves MRC with no issues.
Customer gets the car back and drives it for 2,000 miles.
Car comes back low on oil.
Now,
Did the car overheat on the customer, maybe it did and he didn't notice?
Did the car run low on oil was still was driven hard because the customer wasn't aware?
Was the car over revved or mis-shifted?
Not blaming the customer just stating things that everyone seems to be overlooking. Of course clearances will be off if an engine has been over heated, over revved, or ran low on oil.
But lets say that this engine is our fault, O.K. that is 1 out of OVER 200.
-George
GT Motorsports
Anyways, you might have missed this part of the post, since it was long, I do agree:
The engine was installed, tuned, and made great power.
The engine came back to MRC low on oil, Sam told Julian if the engine was ran low on oil it had to be fixed. Julian sent the engine to a 3rd party months later instead of sending it back to Sam.
So how can Sam warranty an engine if it is never sent back to him for inspection? We are suppose to trust a 3rd party shop with out us having any say in who the 3rd party is and take their word as gospel?
I am not debating the facts posted on the engine, and the damage done to the engine. What we want to know how the damage occurred.
It's easy to say that all these issues were related to machining, and they may be - we won't know until we look at it, but what about the following:
The engine made big power with no issues.
Car leaves MRC with no issues.
Customer gets the car back and drives it for 2,000 miles.
Car comes back low on oil.
Now,
Did the car overheat on the customer, maybe it did and he didn't notice?
Did the car run low on oil was still was driven hard because the customer wasn't aware?
Was the car over revved or mis-shifted?
Not blaming the customer just stating things that everyone seems to be overlooking. Of course clearances will be off if an engine has been over heated, over revved, or ran low on oil.
But lets say that this engine is our fault, O.K. that is 1 out of OVER 200.
-George
GT Motorsports
However, what has come out in this thread and how GTM (you and Sam) have handled this has made me feel dismay, disgust, and caused me to loose faith in GTM.
1) Maybe others knew, but I always thought you were GTM's counterpart to Darren at Intense. Now I find out that you are more like me; a customer and personal friend who hangs out at the shop on a regular basis. Knowing this, I feel that you often posted beyond the scope of your expertise and knowledge. You carried yourself as an employee (sales manager) and an expert. While I've been accused of being a shop nuthugger, you don't see a sponsor status on my account and me pretending to be something I'm not.
2) I feel you guys were still obligated to directly address the results listed in the 3rd party report on Vino's motor. Instead, you guys ignored it until I kept calling you out on it. And you guys still have not addressed the specifics in that report BTW.
3) I have seen arrogant posts by GTM trying to deflect issues. I feel like I'm reading posts by politicians instead of specialists in their field. In hindsight, a lot of Sam's prior posts in other threads had an arrogant tone, which I looked past until now. Sam, just swallow your pride for once, suck it up, and speak directly to what is listed in that report. You are gonna have to once the report on r0mey's motor comes out.
4) The info about Alberto's motor and others shows that the problem is greater than a beef between you guys and Julian. You can point the finger at Julian all you want, but it is becoming obvious that similar issues with GTM motors go beyond MRC's doorstep. There is a greater problem here and GTM needs to own up to it, instead of pointing fingers at everyone else.
-Eric
Thank you, Now let me explain where our answers come from.
Alberto's engine was shipped as a short block - we did not install the heads, some would argue that we do garbage work at installing sleeves, yet it is our sleeves currently installed in Alberto's motor, which seems to be making great power, and his OA look good as well.
BamBam's engine had no issues until he took it for the run on the salt flats, no one had done what he was about to do and I commend him for doing it. I am sure Sharif warned him about the stress that would be going on during those runs. After wards it blew a head gasket, which was replaced and everything was fine.
Nitrouz' engine car ran fine with no issues, car was then impounded for around 8 months (not sure on the time frame) he got the car back and it was overheating, they found the problem to be a bad thermostat - Alex had it replaced. After wards it was determined that he had blown his head gaskets as well. They were replaced with no problems afterward.
So tell me, if these engine are machined incorrectly why is just a head gasket replacement taking care of the issues?
These cars are being driven hard and overheated, yes it is that plain and simple, and yes you can same I have "blaming" overheated as the cause to the failures.
I am sure you will stay say its a machining error despite the events that took place, which clearly show overheating as the cause.
-George
Alberto's engine was shipped as a short block - we did not install the heads, some would argue that we do garbage work at installing sleeves, yet it is our sleeves currently installed in Alberto's motor, which seems to be making great power, and his OA look good as well.
BamBam's engine had no issues until he took it for the run on the salt flats, no one had done what he was about to do and I commend him for doing it. I am sure Sharif warned him about the stress that would be going on during those runs. After wards it blew a head gasket, which was replaced and everything was fine.
Nitrouz' engine car ran fine with no issues, car was then impounded for around 8 months (not sure on the time frame) he got the car back and it was overheating, they found the problem to be a bad thermostat - Alex had it replaced. After wards it was determined that he had blown his head gaskets as well. They were replaced with no problems afterward.
So tell me, if these engine are machined incorrectly why is just a head gasket replacement taking care of the issues?
These cars are being driven hard and overheated, yes it is that plain and simple, and yes you can same I have "blaming" overheated as the cause to the failures.
I am sure you will stay say its a machining error despite the events that took place, which clearly show overheating as the cause.
-George
I don't get the "overheating" concept. In Bam Bams case for instance...If it's being run hard all temps are perfect being constantly monitored(the runs were done early morning there prior to the heat, I was there) NO signs of ANY detonation or preignition on the logs whatsoever and all of a sudden coolant is spewwing all over the windshield out of the vented hood? How does this happen?
So who found Nitrouz's "bad thermostat"? How many times did it overheat? What did he see temps wise? I can't imagine him (being as how beautifully well maintained he kept that car) not shutting the car down at the FIRST sign of something wrong.
But on Alberto's origional sleeved then...who installed the heads? Im assuming you're blaming them?
so how many of these failed engines or blown headgasket issues were sleeved engines?
what's the rough %, like 80%?
Have any of these "failed" engines everyone is talking about even been a non-sleeved engine?
what's the rough %, like 80%?
Have any of these "failed" engines everyone is talking about even been a non-sleeved engine?
Last edited by sentry65; Oct 28, 2008 at 01:53 PM.
Banned
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,342
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From: under the hood
gasket shear form thermal cycling on street driven cars,localized hot spots from poor/redirected coolant passages,sunken sleeves,and all these motors will repeat the issues.selling sleeved blocks for street cars is irresponsible and only one reason comes to mind...$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
with you ZERO experience with a build VQ i find it funny that you are trying to defect the blame to darton now, i guess youve learned well
I wanted HIM to say it. I'm waiting for him to throw poor Forged under the bus since they have done quite a few of these and won't speak up b/c of the "business relationship".This all started b/c I think Julian has finally had enough of it and has finally gotten to the point of speaking up.
Look how long it took for this to come out.
hey now, I'm just asking a question
not putting blame on anyone, so lay off
I honestly have no knowledge of any specifics about these engines. I'm out of the loop and don't personally know any of the guys who's engines are in question
I have a built engine on order BTW that's not sleeved. So for my own knowledge, I would just like a straight answer from all the people that know all the details.
so, how many of these failed engines and blown headgasket issues were sleeved engines? any at all?
Last edited by sentry65; Oct 28, 2008 at 02:06 PM.
Guys everyone needs to calm the hell down. My head is in a spiral making me want to lock my own damn thread. Its redic. People are chiming in posting for people other than themselves it needs to stop. My report was not in today hopefully it will be in tommorrow and I can move forwards and drive my car. With the 2 inches of snow outside right now its safe to say I wont be driving the z for the winter neways. None the less this is my request. Thank you
I know man. I wanted HIM to say it. I'm waiting for him to throw poor Forged under the bus since they have done quite a few of these and won't speak up b/c of the "business relationship".
This all started b/c I think Julian has finally had enough of it and has finally gotten to the point of speaking up.
Look how long it took for this to come out.
I wanted HIM to say it. I'm waiting for him to throw poor Forged under the bus since they have done quite a few of these and won't speak up b/c of the "business relationship".This all started b/c I think Julian has finally had enough of it and has finally gotten to the point of speaking up.
Look how long it took for this to come out.
Well Sam had no issues throwing them under the bus over the phone...
<-----waits for George to tell me to prove it, and I'll get the recording from my work line
Edit-Romey I posted that before I saw your post, I've said what I want to say and shared what I wanted to share. It's up to the people to decide who they trust.
That is what George wants, for the thread to be locked and eventually it will go away.
When I spoke to Sam, not one time, did he say anything like this:
*It is possible the block surface was not clean/machined properly, therefore causing a HG fialure which led to overheating, etc
*It is possible the bearing clearances were off
*It is possible that the cylinder machining was off, and the pistons expanded just enough to cause scuffing o fthe walls and pistons
Instead he said....
*I have been doing this for XXX yeras since I came to this country, it cant be that
*I employ the best engine builders and machininsts, we havent seen a failure to date (yeah right)
*XXXX shop is no engine builder, WE are, we do the machining, we do the assembly. Anybody can put a motor together, we do it form start to finish.
*the tuning was likely off, detonation can lead to head lift
*I am not saying I know EVERYTHING, but I don tbelieve the oil analysis prove anything
And here is the kicker, since George brought it up earlier I think I;ll answer it...
Why did my motor not go back to GTM??? Why did I want NOTHING to do with GTM when it failed?
It didnt go back because after discussing with MY TUNER and the person who I trusted, respected and built my car, I was advised to stay away from any GTM motors, especially sleeved ones.
Sharif was put in a horrible place with my failure, it wasnt the first GTM failure, but like I told him, I paid him for the block, if I pay company A for a block and they build it or outsource it to company B (GTM), when something goes wrong I expect who I paid to cover it. And cover it he did by helping me get back on the road taking some of the hit for something that wasnt truly his fault-he knows it, I know it, but politics of the forums wont allow him to say it, but I sure will.
And on the phone I told Sam what I just wrote above, and he acted soooo surprised to hear that, and refused to believe that GTM wasnt an option that was advised to me. Bull$hit, he damn well knows it, Sharif sucked it all up and told Sam "its not on your end" - so George stop bringing something up you dont know anything about.
Obviously they are friends and do business and people arent being honest with each other. I'll also be honest and say this, at the expense of burning a brudge with Sharif if its not already burned... I knew Sam and Sharif were friends, I had made the mistake of telling Sharif my concerns on this block and the metal contents, and if they kept getting worse (this was before the failure) that I was going to post my findings online. Sharif assured me the analysis was fine. I am a very straightforward person, anbody that has dealt with me can verify, I even told Sharif that I felt like if he had found a plausible cause he wouldnt share it with me for 2 reasons...and this upset Sharif when I told him, understandably so.
1. He is Sams friend and did business with him, why $hit in your backyard so to say? In other words why blame Sam....
2. I felt like he was trying to keep this negative press off of GTM due to what I had told him, well low and behold Romey had issues and spoke up so its time to unveil the real GTM to the public.
Like somebody said earlier about fighting off 10 nuthuggers even when they are right, had I posted my results on my own, some people would have believed me, but it wouldnt have had an impact. Now that there are more people speaking out, from different areas, with different driving habits, tuners, EMS, etc, yet the symptoms and engine builder are the same, now we see the problem.
When I spoke to Sam, not one time, did he say anything like this:
*It is possible the block surface was not clean/machined properly, therefore causing a HG fialure which led to overheating, etc
*It is possible the bearing clearances were off
*It is possible that the cylinder machining was off, and the pistons expanded just enough to cause scuffing o fthe walls and pistons
Instead he said....
*I have been doing this for XXX yeras since I came to this country, it cant be that
*I employ the best engine builders and machininsts, we havent seen a failure to date (yeah right)
*XXXX shop is no engine builder, WE are, we do the machining, we do the assembly. Anybody can put a motor together, we do it form start to finish.
*the tuning was likely off, detonation can lead to head lift
*I am not saying I know EVERYTHING, but I don tbelieve the oil analysis prove anything
And here is the kicker, since George brought it up earlier I think I;ll answer it...
Why did my motor not go back to GTM??? Why did I want NOTHING to do with GTM when it failed?
It didnt go back because after discussing with MY TUNER and the person who I trusted, respected and built my car, I was advised to stay away from any GTM motors, especially sleeved ones.
Sharif was put in a horrible place with my failure, it wasnt the first GTM failure, but like I told him, I paid him for the block, if I pay company A for a block and they build it or outsource it to company B (GTM), when something goes wrong I expect who I paid to cover it. And cover it he did by helping me get back on the road taking some of the hit for something that wasnt truly his fault-he knows it, I know it, but politics of the forums wont allow him to say it, but I sure will.
And on the phone I told Sam what I just wrote above, and he acted soooo surprised to hear that, and refused to believe that GTM wasnt an option that was advised to me. Bull$hit, he damn well knows it, Sharif sucked it all up and told Sam "its not on your end" - so George stop bringing something up you dont know anything about.
Obviously they are friends and do business and people arent being honest with each other. I'll also be honest and say this, at the expense of burning a brudge with Sharif if its not already burned... I knew Sam and Sharif were friends, I had made the mistake of telling Sharif my concerns on this block and the metal contents, and if they kept getting worse (this was before the failure) that I was going to post my findings online. Sharif assured me the analysis was fine. I am a very straightforward person, anbody that has dealt with me can verify, I even told Sharif that I felt like if he had found a plausible cause he wouldnt share it with me for 2 reasons...and this upset Sharif when I told him, understandably so.
1. He is Sams friend and did business with him, why $hit in your backyard so to say? In other words why blame Sam....
2. I felt like he was trying to keep this negative press off of GTM due to what I had told him, well low and behold Romey had issues and spoke up so its time to unveil the real GTM to the public.
Like somebody said earlier about fighting off 10 nuthuggers even when they are right, had I posted my results on my own, some people would have believed me, but it wouldnt have had an impact. Now that there are more people speaking out, from different areas, with different driving habits, tuners, EMS, etc, yet the symptoms and engine builder are the same, now we see the problem.
Posted by Sharif on G35Driver:
Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
Hey Julian,
We have talked about a lot of things in the past, but I have never said that a couple of GTM engines came apart on startup. Because that is not the case. Every single one started up just fine. Please don't put words into my mouth, or exagerate our conversations...please. I am staying out of this discussion for the most part. You and I are on good terms, and I would like to keep it respectful and keep it that way.
As I told you over the phone, several months ago, the main reason we stopped using GTM engines is becuase of the leadtimes and shipping costs, since we are on the other side of the country. And becuase we consume a lot of engines..sometimes 5 engines in a month or more, we just needed to bring things in house to turn stuff around faster. Do I feel better about doing the assemby in house? Yes! Does it save us and our customer's money? Yes! Can I keep a closer eye on what my guys are doing? Yes!
But that doesnt mean that GTM products are bad..not at all.
They have sold probably 100 or more engines, we have purchased at least 5-10 that I can recall...strokers...shortblock, and cylinder heads. The cylinder heads in my Time Attack car are GTM heads...over 3 years old now.
Now I am not going to sit here and say that GTM is perfect, or FP is perfect, or Julian is perfect. We are all human, and can all make mistakes. I am just trying to figure out how you got 5-6 bad engines from GTM, when very few others are having an reliability issues with the motors?
And lastly, GTM and MRC have a business relationship..correct? I find it hard to believe, that if Sam was approached with an issue, you would walk away from it. Why do you have to do all the blasting on the internet forums, instead of discussiing this privately and come to some kind of good solution?
We have talked about a lot of things in the past, but I have never said that a couple of GTM engines came apart on startup. Because that is not the case. Every single one started up just fine. Please don't put words into my mouth, or exagerate our conversations...please. I am staying out of this discussion for the most part. You and I are on good terms, and I would like to keep it respectful and keep it that way.
As I told you over the phone, several months ago, the main reason we stopped using GTM engines is becuase of the leadtimes and shipping costs, since we are on the other side of the country. And becuase we consume a lot of engines..sometimes 5 engines in a month or more, we just needed to bring things in house to turn stuff around faster. Do I feel better about doing the assemby in house? Yes! Does it save us and our customer's money? Yes! Can I keep a closer eye on what my guys are doing? Yes!
But that doesnt mean that GTM products are bad..not at all.
They have sold probably 100 or more engines, we have purchased at least 5-10 that I can recall...strokers...shortblock, and cylinder heads. The cylinder heads in my Time Attack car are GTM heads...over 3 years old now.
Now I am not going to sit here and say that GTM is perfect, or FP is perfect, or Julian is perfect. We are all human, and can all make mistakes. I am just trying to figure out how you got 5-6 bad engines from GTM, when very few others are having an reliability issues with the motors?
And lastly, GTM and MRC have a business relationship..correct? I find it hard to believe, that if Sam was approached with an issue, you would walk away from it. Why do you have to do all the blasting on the internet forums, instead of discussiing this privately and come to some kind of good solution?
There is obviously something else going on here that we don't know about. Personally if I where you, and I thought GTM had part in my engine failure, I would have sent it back to have it repaired.
If you don't feel comfortable with your GTM block then why do you still run it with your GTM installed sleeves.
Also still no pictures of bearings, how was the wear on them? I heard they were pretty good.
maybe we need to take out any variances... how many GTM long blocks (the short block seems to be a big variation because of the outside installation of the heads) tuned by GTM have failed?... and i fully agree a blown headgasket being a failure as you have to pay for the labor bill. There i no reason for these setups to keep blowing headgaskets, somethings just not right.
George what you heard is hearesay, you've proven you dont know a godd@mn thing about my situation. If you want to talk about me, talk about why the OA came back the way they did, until then I wont reply to you, your a waste of time. If I were Sam Id pay you (since you work for free) to get off the computer and stop making things worse.
I read the forum politics earlier by others, but have yet to see it here, if/when it comes here directly from the source I'll call out the truth then. You simply want more drama so this can be closed down.
I read the forum politics earlier by others, but have yet to see it here, if/when it comes here directly from the source I'll call out the truth then. You simply want more drama so this can be closed down.
