Not trying to **** you or others off... But this thread needs a reality check and I apologize if it may rub some folks the wrong way.

First of all, the fiasco with the rag was an inexcusable and amateurish clusterf*ck that would deter me from going to either shop. Frank carelessly left it in there and then Dave kept trying to boost the car for days with such an obstruction, instead of thoroughly checking all the charge piping on/after day 1 of the "no boost" problem.

Secondly, I think it should be pointed out that neither shop has extensive experience with 600+whp builds. Every shop needs to start somewhere and some guys need to step up to be a guinea pig or beta tester for a shop. But I personally would want to take my VQ to a shop where 600-1,000+whp horsepower builds are the norm and not the exception. There are only 3 shops on this forum that can claim that, and it's no coincidence that all 3 of those shops were big names in the Supra platform prior to devoting their attention to the VQ platform. Bottom line: If a shop considers 600-700whp on a VQ as a "high horsepower build", you should walk out and look elsewhere.

 

I can't agree with you completely. Dave Shiroma and Frank Hill both had definitely participated (or single handled) in building 600-700whp cars in multiple platforms. I guess you're not local so you're not too familiar with their history. There is a reason why they're the 2 guys that we consider the most reliable in the Mid-A area.

The problem I do see is the communication issue. You have 1 shop that did the motor build, another shop that did the installation/assembling, then yet another shop that did the tuning. And who knows some other shop might be involved in part of the motor building process. There is way too much room for error due to miscommunication. And when bad thing like this happens, obviously no one wants to take the blame. And it's not really that the shops are being irresponsible; it's that who'd take the blame if they're not 100% sure it really is their fault? Especially when we're talking about thousands of dollar? It's human nature not to take a blame until we're found guilty or at least knowing that we're guilty.

However if you have one single shop that did all 3 steps, who is to be blamed when chit happens?

Chris I hate to see you in this situation and would love to see your car on the road.... All I can say is I wish you the best!!!!

PS: I also want to point out this question... So lets say a customer bought a faulty part not knowing it's faulty. Then it blows up and damages extra parts during installation/tuning or whatever. Is it the installer/tuner's fault? The customer's fault? Or the part vendor's fault?

 

i guess you didn't pray enough... calm(check) safe (check) sober( )
hangover + wake n bake and some ramen n00dles afterwards FTMFW!!!

Full day of catch up today at work and hopefully making a bit of progress on how to handle the motor inspection. I have some difficult decisions to make in the near future, one of them being to make a complete list of my parts at their used value and see if it is equal to or greater than what I owe on the car. That way I can see if just parting out and walking away from this platform is even an option.[/quote]
Hang in there, the community has spoken and we are behind you, and the fact that you already gave them 2 redo-tries to do it right(more than anybody else would anyways) means that these shops(regardless of where the actual fault is) are responsible for KILLING your enthusiasm in the 350z.

I would hope that, they are smart enough to know that they have to go above and beyond to make things right. While i have suggested to Cass that this threads are "a meet grinder" and "suggestions" on a forum by people that have not looked at your car at all should not be taken as entire fact.

Two things is very clear, Cass has gone above what anybody else would have done to make things over fair to the shops and has himself taken more blame for all this than he deserves, and also this time Cass had NO part in the build, so 100% no chance that its his fault.

I hope they man up to the reputation many here have defended from this shops and that Cass has supported till now and make things right for Cass.

i hear you man, and i understand why you wouldn't wanna do any finger pointing... we community here is doing that... weather we are fully correct or not on how we handle things, some facts remains... you are not at fault, your goals were not outrageous, you are not a failure, repeated/similar mistakes took place....if we want to look for truth fail/win.... MrS and RA are kinds of utter fail on my350z.

i hope you stay a lil patient because this is a matter that right now..all you should have to look at and worry is just more down time, but not as "I have to pay more again". Its not your responsibility, given the circumstances.


I completely agree, but one suggestion on your 3rd party review is that all shops involved at this point should just agree to cover all the expenses necessary to get Cass on the road RIGHT NOW. It would disappoint me and i would find unacceptable/disappointing/MRs-level-fail that they will wait and dance around till a 3rd party inspection is done to find out engine failed. TO me this is the best way for the shops involved... it would show that they stand behind their work no matter what, and if they are found not to be at fault, they can sort things out between each other(the shops involved) after wards, but not at the expense of the customer ANYMORE. They already did that twice.

i dunno about the 1st statement but,it doesn't mean anything if the shop isn't willing to stand behind their work. At this point the 25+ motors of no fail shows that maybe human error has catch up to frank.... the rag bad issue, you cant defend around that. WE can keep speculating until it gets sorted, but Cass Z needs to get fixed 1st.

it does look like a similar error, but again i am willing to give away from that and stop the speculation as soon as the shops involved come here and put it in public that they will take care of things no questions/money asked....just as Cass has keep things honest on this thread since the beginning.
+2 lol at vetter comment

sure but that excuse works out 1 time.... Cass eat it and had a rebuild... ...they had 2 tries at a rebuild already.
Also keep in mind that this time Cass tried to stay away from the building process and it was all left up to the installer/builder/tuner. Other than the EMS i think all the parts Cass picked were proven.....and should handle more than Cass non-outrageous goals(no pun fyi)...

 

Easy Rude....Dave was to do nothing but tune the car (this was from the beginning) and you expect him to rip apart the car on his time w/o charging anyone and no autorization for charges (from the owner) to find something that was delivered to him that way?

Please keep in mind that the day the car didn't make boost was the day it was delivered.... and Frank was present. Quick checks were made that day but body panels weren't pulled off to access and remove piping to check it.

The car was NOT ran for days when it wasn't making boost like you say. Unfortunately due to other appoinments and obligations to his customers who were already scheduled for work at F:T the car had to sit a little bit before he could really get into it and trouble shoot it thoroughly.

And just because it's a "newer shop" doesn't mean the owners and guys working on the cars aren't familiar with high HP builds.

 

Rude - this is not accurate. The car just sat until the day we found the rag.

+1 Ethan - The issue was this, I bought a used built motor and got started down a path with Frank on getting that motor repaired. Based on the amount of cosmetic detail involved with the motor, Frank was 100% the right choice for this project. His attention to detail was awesome.

After the initial failure, Frank offered free labor for the motor re-build and install, I was paying $7K+ in parts for the re-build and I still trust Frank and took him up on his offer. I split the cost with him to have Justice Racing spec out the shortblock components, but opted against the $950ish price to have them assemble the motor as well. Call me cheap, but Frank has built many VQ's and I saw no reason to doubt his ability. The motor sounded very smooth compared to the initial motor and all was thought to be well. All shops involved thought my car would be a true monster when the fuel mods were finished.

Short of me spending several thousand dollars more, there was no way for this build to be accomplished by a single shop. I am aware that Dave offers a warranty program with Justice as his builder, but honestly I was trying to minimize some of the re-build cost and never in a million years thought I could have the same failure twice before I ever got the car back.

Frank has offered to accept responsibility if the failure is shown to be his fault. I still have to discuss the same with Dave, although I know he does not feel the failure is tuning related. We will all have to agree who/where the car will be torn down. I'm not sure if Justice Racing is an option though, since they spec'd the shortblock and do buisiness with both of the shops involved .

 

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not defending shop here. I actually totally agree with you that Cass ate the rebuild already and somebody should be responsible for this and not the customer. If I drop thousands of dollars to shops to have them worked on things together to do it right. Then the motor blows up... I don't care whose fault it is but it clearly isn't mine. The shops (including the place that did the build of course) need to sit together and figure this out. It's easy to say it's not my fault. But reputation is on the line so lets be professional and participate in the blame game and make the customer happy!

 

^^
its possible that we could be unfair with dave, but its besides the point.... the shops involved had 2 attempts already...and fail on similar issue.... they need to figure out a way to cover the costs to get cass back on the road RIGHT NOW...they can have 3rd party inspection and sort things out of whos fault it is and who should ultimately fork most of the bill, but thats a deal between each other and one that Cass should not be affected by at this point any more.


edit:

This was my whole point...i hope this means that you are all covered of expenses to get it fixed...dave needs to be more sympatetic on all this...no many are willing to spend 40k on a build and at the same time try and show off a product you are coming up with liek vipec...i would HOPE he hooks you up entirely, it would be a nice gesture on his part.... and while Hills garage is bound to suffer form this... i think the fact that Frank has taken responsability shows a lot of his character......Actually justice might be best option since it should be imparcial to both shops.

 

Well, then I apologize. Maybe my memory fails me, but I got the impression from your past posts that Dave made more than one attempt on more than one occasion to boost your car before the rag was found.

 

I agree with what you guys are saying.....But I am quite sure that Chris next post will be like this......



And then my response....




Anything less......

 

I saw the car today.......shed a little tear. I hope it is up and running soon.

 

Most of the mid-a will be there this sunday probably minus Chris which is a total shame.

 

Oh boy, sorry to hear about all this... I remember how excited you were just a few months back at the last FT meet... now to only hear about this crap! Quite a shocker because all 3 shops are excellent. Now lets let logic speak for itself:

Rule out Function:TUNED as the shop who made the mistake. Dave only did the tune and touched nothing else, how could he be at fault? Regardless if he tuned 100whp or 1000whp motors, he's tuned over 100 boosted VQs and non of them have blown... especially after a simple drive down the street on a freakin' built block! What are the chances of a brand new built motor blowing in under a few miles from the tuning? Yeeeaaah.... Riiiiiight.....

 

The only thing left to do is for the engine tuner and the engine builder to work together to put Cass back on the road within 45 days with no money out of pocket for Cass.

The fact that we are talking about "inspections" to "figure out what happened" is already a complete failure to customer service,... Cass = Customer.

Anything less than 45 days is a failure and a sign neither shop accepts responsiblity for a customer that has been more than willing to protect, serve,.. and WRITE CHECKS.

45 days is completely in reason.

Just my 0.02.

 

45 days is not too much to ask for.....and "Inspections" is what happens after Cass gets his car back....I agree...


Also....still waiting for Chris to fill in the name of the person below....

 

Hold on, let me get this straight. A thread is open in the Mid A with info on a Mid A shop having a motor blow up under the shops watch, and somehow, this thread stays open in order for everyone to see the out come in how Dave or the other tuner is going to fix the problem?

Must be leap year or all the mods are on vacation. Mid A tends to have any threads about shop issues deleted after about 12 hours.

You see, if the thread goes away, the problem never happened in the first place!

Dave's a good guy, I have zero doubt in my mind that one way or another he will make sure you're taken care of.

Cass, it sucks to get soooo close to something you want sooooo bad only to lose it. this will just make the final product that much sweeter!

 

It wont close until after Chris fills in the name below..

 

You'd be surprised.... Then again, this is a different shop we're talking about. so maybe it will stay open to see a happy ending.

 

My apologies to Dave for the delay in posting what he spoke to me about earlier. Its my wedding aniversary today and I needed to show my wife that she is still more important than the toys.

Dave has offered me his own built block he was putting in his track car. This is a very generous offer.

I am very conflicted as to what to do and how to proceed from here. I want to make it clear that I am not trying to get something for nothing or hurt the reputations of any of the shops I have been working with. To the people that feel I am being unreasonable, ask yourself how you would feel after spending $20K on motors, being without your car for 7 months and having two built motors fail before you ever drive the car under boost once?

I am just trying to enjoy my Z like so many others on this forum.

 

Remember now...that the shop you speak of just took a beating on here.... and the mods kept it open....

 

Are you kidding me?? Who could think you are being unreasonable??? Dont even pay attention to that......

Wow so I guess Dave's name goes in that spot !!!

Whats is in Dave's motor.....can you get the same numbers you were getting on your motor?? If so...why not??? What Pistons and Rods were used??