zman1982

iTrader: (19)

[QUOTE=IIQuickSilverII;7490339]are you moronic?

do you not see him doing anything stupid in the assembly processs...are excusing a the rag? QUOTE]

+1
This is inexcusible in a regular dealership let alone a performance build at a engine builder. And anyone that thinks that there is no way that this had anything to do with the failure... At any point any foreign matter enters the oil passages is a recipe for disaster. If some RTV sealants are not to be used due to them not breaking down in the oil, how in the hell is a rag gonna break down. Come on here. The point here is if the rag would not have been present this isn't as cut and dry. But seeing that it was I don't see how the tuner has anything to do with it. This is no knock on Frank it is the facts here.

Also Cass you are handling this very, VERY well. I just hope you don't jump ship.

RudeG_v2.0

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm...

I think your very astute observation deserves more attention and discussion. If correct, that means Chris shouldn't have had to pay anything for the rebuild after the first failure.

abui01

iTrader: (68)

After this is all said and done... who's gonna build Dave a motor now? LOL
Someone's getting the short end of the stick, I hope it's not the person least responsible because that would suck!

BlinkerFluid

iTrader: (7)

That was my point exactly. It was claimed that the loss of oil pressure was caused by the ability for oil to free flow through the internal leak caused by these damaged seals. What wasn't discussed in detail was how the sealing rings were damaged. "Powdercoating caused misalignment" is BS. I feel it's quite obvious by looking at how the aluminum cover is damaged, the direction it is damaged, the appearance of the sealing rings both being pinched off, and the debris found in the sump. Cass even mentioned how tight they went on and how they had to be massaged into place with a mallet. I can understand a bit of a tight fit over the dowel pins, but the part that slides into the end of the intake cam gear with the sealing ring should show little to no resistance at all. I know from experience that you can't just force them straight in, you have to wiggle them a bit to get the ring through the taper of the cam gear cover.

The FSM even mentions being careful about the rings staying in place.

Oil is sent to this area to advance the camshafts, which happens very frequently during engine operation. What I don't know is if this condition really can reroute enough oil from the engine to starve the bottom end. It appears it can as no other causes for the lack of oil pressure were discussed.

RudeG_v2.0

iTrader: (1)

Here is the picture you referred to in your prior post. The rest of the pics are here. --> https://my350z.com/forum/7130517-post743.html

Havok_RLS2

iTrader: (9)

I agree. Seem to me that having to use a mallet to force a seal that otherwise should has not needed one was a dead giveaway that something wasn't right during the first build. In fact I can't think of a single part that requires that use of a mallet to fit properly removal maybe but not installing or fitting. Must be from that old school "if it don't fit beat the hell out of it" school of engine building.

Look I'm not a lawyer but after reading through this entire thread it seems pretty clear to me that fault should find itself where the final assembly occurred. Even if the block was build by another shop, the last shop to do the assembly should have Q and A the block completely prior to re-assembly and reinstalling the motor. That's exactly what Nissan dealerships do when that have to replace motors or other component from the factory. (BTW My brother is a technician at Passport Nissan.) That way any prior flaws and misalignment would have been caught beforehand. Even if the "Powder coating" was (NOT!) the cause the first time there is still no excuse why everything wasn't spec'd for clearance and bolt holes re-tapped if needed. I mean that would only seem like common sense to me.
Dave being the "tuner" would IMO be the last one responsible. It wouldn't matter if he's the single greatest tuner in the world he can't tune past mechanical failure. If he could he should be charging way more than he is.
I'll give you an example: I re-build my motor myself and get and drive it to Dave to have it tuned but something (whatever it doesn't matter what) happens internally to the motor because of something I either did or didn't do or on the drive up to Dave's shop. Dave does his tuning magic but it blows up during tuning. It's clearly my fault right? In fact I bet that if I posted a thread saying that exact same thing it wouldn't be much of a thread. Yet Cass didn't build his motor or do the install himself. Cass "trusted" a shop to do the work and that shop delivered not one but 2(two) failed motors. Yet somehow the "tuner" Dave ("Super Dave" if you will) is the first to take care of the customer. For Real! Wow. That speaks LOADS for Dave and Function Tune to step up like that. To me Hill's shop should be the one flipping the bill for the cost of both motors and install. That's what one would expect from a shop that stands behind their work. I could care less how nice Frank is as a person the fact is you paid him to provide a service which should have resulted in a mechanically sound motor. You didn't get that. Period.
Attention to details = NONE

CASS you are that man! I know there is a place reserved for you in Heaven because you have been able to remain good spirited and calm about this whole mess. I'm pretty sure that I'd be in jail had it been me.

Pun1sh3RZ

iTrader: (59)

Cass, I am truly sorry to hear of your experience man. I hope the two companies involved are able to resolve your situation. Hard to figure out your motor failing twice, when the builder has done numerous vq builds. He did mine and a very good friend of mine, and you know both of our cars.

Either way, glad to see you're able to stay somewhat calm as I would have completely lost it at this point.

Havok_RLS2

iTrader: (9)

Now having see this phot again isn't it possible that that seal could have be damaged after that fact and had nothing to do with the failure in the first place? I mean if that cover had to be forced on then wouldn't it have to be foced off? Hmmmmm.... I mean for all the OP knows that damage could have happened during removal for the inspection. I just can't see how that one seal damaged or now could have resulted is such massive oil starvation to the rest of the motor. Just a thought.

Havok_RLS2

iTrader: (9)

Yeah and NASA has made hundreds of successful space flights and yet the only ones everyone remembers are the ones that exploded in mid air. All I have to say is "little rubber "O" ring". (everyone wants to blame it on the little rubber "O" ring)
Boeing has build hundreds of thousands of airplanes and some that have been in the air for 10, 15, and 20 years and yet when one crashes it's front page news but no one is looking for the passangers to pay for the planes are they? NO they look for Boeing to investigate design failure and work their way down to the pilot and whoever touched that failed part last.

25+ engine builds is not a huge accomplishment when compaired to the mechanics that have to rebuild and blueprint top fuel racing engines one the spot between heats. And even they screw up from time to time. (NOTE: Never seen one use a mallet the fit a part either)

Please don't kid yourself in thinking the Frank is the poster child for "Attention to detail" and never makes mistakes. Every one of us is prone to making mistakes even NASA engineers and they dont work in a one man shop.

In closing I would also like to say that the term "Attention to detail" is relative term in that one persons perception of close attention to details may be different from anothers. I would say that someone who would forget to remove a rag from the air filter or intake piping displays a complete lack of attention to details (and judgement). On the other hand that might be something that you could overlook and accept as being okay. See what I mean? I'd also venture to say that CASS could have done the entire build himself and may not have made such mistakes and ended up with better results due to his having more to lose (more invested) from not paying close attention to details would have in fact encouraged him to pay closer attention to details. We tend to do things like that when it's our first time doing something. We do crazy **** like "READ THE FOCKING TECHNICAL MANUAL" for specs and settings. In other words he would have invested more into the project. At the every least he wouldn't have had to pay the labor cost. But thats what he was paying for right? He paid good money for someone to do what he could have Hoped (Hoped: to expect with confidence : trust) was a better job then he could have done himself. I mean lets face it... Cass could have blown up two good motors by himself for free and the only one left to blame would be himself. The end results would have been the same I guess. Maybe. Who knows? All that means is that he would have been no better or no worse NOT paying Frank or any other shop to do the same since the end results were failures. He's been the only one flipping the bill for these failures.

Anyway you cut it CASS shouldn't have had to pay for the second motor.
+1000 for Dave stepping up to help out a customer!

jpc350

"come clean" You are talking out of your butt!! You know little of facts involved in both these engine builds...

rcdash

iTrader: (18)

Cass, I can understand you being in a tough spot because you are always looking to do the right thing. Sometimes the right thing isn't always pleasant for all parties involved.

I thought you were much too forgiving of Frank after the first incident with the cover and the possible blame attributed to the powdercoating, which was clearly a defensive response on his part. If you excuse him this time, you're a wuss and you deserve to be trampled over, but that's your choice. Your "I am a failure" sig is telling. I'm not saying this to be an @ss but because it's a relatively objective opinion by someone that has no vested interests and a reality check / wake up call for you. Being nice or polite or friendly has nothing to do with it - make a business decision here. If you let Dave take the hit when there is very, very little chance that he ends up having anything to do with this 2nd failure, that's even worse.

I'm not saying that Frank screwed up twice (before the frank hill fan boys jump down my throat). I am saying that it IS extremely likely that that is the case. Given that, he should be stepping up to the plate and covering all costs AND he should allow another builder of your choice to do this last and final build. After two failures, I would not allow him to touch another motor. Life is short - don't let him continue to waste yours.

Cass007

iTrader: (34)

Decided to work on the part out list today to consider all my options:

Stillen Series 1 front fascia DB - $350
Cincity lights (R8, Blue glow & Demon Eye, painted DB) - $1000
APS Tallboy Plenum (powdercoated DB) upper & lower - $350
APS Toughboy Strut (powdercoated ruby red) - $225
APS TT Tuner kit w/upgraded GT3071 BB Turbos - $5000
Valve Covers (powdercoated ruby red) - $100
Timing Covers (front/rear powdercoated DB) - $200
5Zigen Wheels - 19x8.5, 19x9.5 - minimal rash - $1000
Carbonetic Dual Disc Clutch w/9.5 lb flywheel & stainless line - $1300
009 Transmission w/27K miles - $500
JVC Head unit (CD/DVD/USB/Bluetooth/Memory Stick/SAT/i-pod) - $500
JL Audio 500/1 AMP - $275
2 - JL Audio 10w6v2 Subs - $400 (pair)
Wicked CAS Sub Sub Box (painted DB) - $350
Homelink Mirror w/Valentine V1 remote etched behind glass (very rare) - $500
Valentine V1 radar detector w/all accessories & box - $350
Aquamist HSF-5 Meth System w/Snow Reservoir - $800
DW Denso 800cc drop-in injectors - $450
SP Triple Pump Hanger w/2 Walbro Fuel Pumps - $500
F:T .5 Custom Fuel Return System - $300
Defi Blue Racer Boost Gauge - $150
Innovate Wideband (Blue) - $150
Stock Seats (black) - $200 (pair)
05 Blue LED Conversion (Door/AC/Center Console/Speedo Cluster w/custom white face gauges from Black Cat Customs) - $800
Quaife Rear Diff w/3.3 pumpkin (powdercoted cover DB) - $1200
Brembo rotors & calipers w/SS lines (powdercoated ruby red) - $1400
ViPEC EMS with custom 350Z patch harness P&P - $2200
CJM Fuel Rails (Blue) w/fittings - $250
Wicked CAS Fiberglass Door Panels (unfinished) - $250
Assorted Plastics & Spare Parts - $1500
APS 3" True Dual Exhaust - $850
Tein Sport Comfort Coilovers w/EDFC (black) - $1200

I'm sure I have left a few things out, but by my math that is ~$24,600 - more than enough to pay off the car and walk away. PARTING OUT IS A VALID OPTION

Driven1

iTrader: (2)

I don't even know what to say here.

Here is the way it is...you can't change it and I told Chris this...the likelyhood of the motor failure being a result of something Dave did is probably 10% at this point.

Has Dave been reimbursed for the labor hours trouble shooting the rag issue yet? I doubt it. Shouldn't Frank be calling Dave to see whats up and trying to figure something out? Yes. You have to remember that Dave is putting a ton of time into a car in which the only income or business he is making is off is the EMS and tune and I can promise you if you did the math he's was already upside down on hours just because of how thorough he is and how much time is actually spent tuning a new ems (this is business guys). I understand Frank did the 2nd motor for free but guess what? It wasn't Dave's fault...it was the fault of the person who did the final assembly...Frank...so it should have been free imo. right?

Im glad I am not the only one who sees this this way. I was reluctant to post my opinion b/c I didn't want to be accused of being partial b/c of my friendship with Dave outside of this car $hit. Anyone who does business with me knows I try to be fair in ALL cases whether wrong or right personal relationships or not. I just feel that someone has already offered up a WAY more than fair end of his deal and still hasen't heard from Frank.

Nick....Im sorry man but bearings just don't fail and oil pressure just doesn't drop. And rarely just b/c of an occurance of detonation b/c of a tune. Detonation tends to cause much more catastrophinc events in high hp applications like this. (i.e. "headlift", etc.). Frank needs to call Dave ASAP take the car or whatever Chris wants to do.

I made a few different suggestions to Chirs...but guys this isn't going to happen overnight. IMO all 3 parties need to sit down and have a discussion...and not just for the reasons posted in this thread. There are business relationships here and other things to consider as well given the location of these 2 shops and what they do and you have to remember that. With relationships comes the expectation for a certain amount of respect...Frank needs to make a phonecall....he is the primary builder of this car...it sucks...but he is...and he needs to take the reigns here as far as the customer IMO.

And Chris...if you decide to part (I hope that's not the resolution honestly)...there are a few things I would love to take off your hands.

MAybe even a payment plan? with interest so you have the opportunity to make more back?

str8dum1

iTrader: (11)

i'm sure the pms must be rolling in calling dibs on stuff, if you do decide to walk away!

i'll add one myself

Cass007

iTrader: (34)

You are my first vulture .

Cass007

iTrader: (34)

HHAHA... ninja edit. Your credit is always good with me Robbie.

I sent identical texts to both shops today (everything I have sent to one shop has been sent to both) asking what happens to me if all the parties involved are present at teardown (including Jim Justice) and an obvious cause for failure doesn't present itself? If a bearing or rod simply failed because my karma blows goats (I really don't think I have done enough bad things in my life to deserve this level of fail ) then am I just on my own?

I have been exploring all options - part out, teardown and build with another shop and seek legal recourse for my damages and expenses, reach an amicable solution with the parties currently involved in my build.

I have no doubt if that during teardown an obvious problem presents itself that the appropriate party would take responsibility. Signs of detonation or headlift = F:T, incorrect torque specs/misassembly = Hills Garage, improper specs on the bottom end components = Justice Racing.

My greatest fear is that I get the motor torn down and nobody can agree on what the cause of failure is and everyone just goes into CYOA mode and I just get stuck.

Chef-J

iTrader: (58)

Cass...
You can not think about part out yet...damm

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

THE RAG LOOKED RATHER DIRTY TO ME!




and i dont think i am th eonly one here. its ovious he isnt looking good.. 1st issue with powedercoat was overblown and cass took more responsability than he should have. then the rag, quit excusing lack of attention of detail! he might have done other jobs better, but now he is waiting for teardown blah blah...hes more guilty than the previous engine and he shoudl step up like dave did no matter where the fault of the teardown lies. And yes he can come "cleam' out of this mess if he shows that "wonderful" personally you defend so much; rather than making the customer wait...hes jsut looking out for himself now...you cant nuthug failure..thats what gets you trouble in this site.



cass, stop thinking of a part out, taking any kind of blame and change your sig asap.
DO IT NOW!


lol...the party(ies) involved must and will take care of you

abui01

iTrader: (68)

DUDE!! If you part out, I will KEEEELLL YUUUU!!!!! At this point, you don't have to spend another penny, and the 3 shops in the picture HAVE TO AGREE TO A CONCLUSION... there is no "well I didn't do it" and walk away... because someone DID DO IT. Who cares if they never come to an agreement, bottom line is: it aint your fault, so regardless of whois fault it is - you have the right to get a 100% working car. So please edit your post, because you're not parting out buddy!!!!!!!!!

PS. PM me ur # so I can snap some pics when I'm there @ the shop to remind u of how awesome ur car is going to be.

PPS: My car will be next for a build by both Dave and Justice Racing. Look out for a future buildup thread right here in ur friendly neighborhood FI section.

Driven1

iTrader: (2)

....Probability Justice Racing "spec'd" the motor wrong....probably 2%..maybe..if that? Assembly mistakes are simply the most probable.