coachk

iTrader: (21)

Its a shame that everything you have said is the furthest thing from the truth. I know you and JT don't get along and you and Gus don't get along, but to say these things only make you and your beloved Japtrix look like a bunch of idiots.

INTENSEPOWER

iTrader: (208)

From what I'm gathering here (at least from Craig's posts) some of JT's customers (at least Craig) was guilted into thinking that because A LOT of work that was being done on the cars was "discounted" or "free" that they not only couldn't pull their projects, but also they flexed forum muscles for PF/JT in various threads.

I'm not taking sides here peeps -- that's what I'm reading though, from Craig's posts. Obviously there's 2 sides to everything, and as CoachK stated, the truth is often/mostly somewhere in between. Regardless, this sucks for ALL parties, but mostly customers.

Lesson: as a shop you can have friends who are your customers. That's all good. However, keep business business. I.E. -- the customer/friend should be coming to you for your excellent work/tuning/motor building skills/body work/stereo/fab/whatever, first. Discounting parts is cool in this scenario, but the work should always be billed at the same rate you would bill a stranger that comes off the street. As a shop that's been doing this for 10 years, we've always embraced this approach to friends and their projects: discount heavily the parts, but charge the labor as you would for anyone else's project. That way there's no hard feelings if things don't go as they would in a utopia. The bottom line is that, **** happens in every business. Shops are no different. As long as common sense, good communications, and strong ethics/morals are involved on all sides, the best results will no doubt be present.

Darren

coachk

iTrader: (21)

Darren...You are right on point. It wasn't JT's abilities as a builder/tuner that caused these problems, it was his lack of knowing the proper way of running a business end of story. JT and I have had this conversation a couple times since PF closed and he knows now that business is business. The main problem was JT didn't get his customers to sign agreements as to what he was going to be doing to the cars and how much it would cost and he regrets that because that was the downfall of PF. The amount of money that is owed to JT is mind boggling and because of his errors he will never see a penny of it.

MD_V35

iTrader: (3)

Glad the truth is out. Everything Craig said is 100% true.

JAM3Z

iTrader: (17)

Very sad story about you and Chris' cars.

thefireboy

i guess he should of taken some classes on business management.. oh hey why not JT and mike both join the same class and carpool there maybe you both can learn something.... just my 2 cents

taurran

iTrader: (18)

Well, I've said before that JT can turn wrenches, but he shouldn't be running a business. The work that I had done on my car and what I saw on some others was rushed and half assed for the MOST PART. That's because *he hired* people that cut corners and didn't put any pride into most of their work.

Some days I sat at the shop and saw his employees get probably 10 minutes of solid work per hour. They'd work on a car for 5 minutes, go talk about cars or hang out for 30, work 5 more, go have a drink, chitcaht, etc. No wonder nothing got done around there.

That still doesn't excuse what was done to many long time friends and customers who had their cars ruined. I'll catch up on this later.

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

you cant just promise also the world out of a build for 10k and then find out that you don't know what you are doing and its going to take a lot more work and then you come back to the customer saying its 15k and that there are all this hours of extra work done...thats really more "time spent figuring stuff out", or fixing "issues" that the customer didnt creat since they had their cars down for over a year, have you been through that and worst at the end of the journey its still fail? There is not "too many cooks" for issues, if a customer pays him for an engine and he outsources it, its still all through him and his responsability if that engine fails....that isnt free work, ihe says he took care of customers but he should not consider that 'free work".
This highlights how hard is its for shops to do mostly custom work builds, and the level of crafmanship experience and knowldge of what it takes beforehand, some the longer term shops here, specially the supra shops know of this. I hope titan and others down there get on the vq soon.
Unless i am mistaken there are accusations on the quality of work by PF(not dont be jermey though, but still reponsible)
Also, after reading his last post its full of "his lack of knowing the proper way of running a business end of story" as you said.
I actually thought the aam move was good, for all what is said of aam they have grown as a busines so ovbiously they can do that better, and that wasnt going to be part of his duties, just the part most agree he knows what he is doing...of course he couldnt take it, but at least i figured if you get "helped" after your business close is leave with a 2 week notice or something.....

taurran

iTrader: (18)

IT is the truth. No offense, honestly believe that because you're buddies with him, you're making light of what went on there. Your car took a while, yes, but it was turned around 10x faster than these people's cars so you cannot identify with what people went through.

What I say is the truth, and probably not even as bad as these people would make it sound if they were here to tell their own stories.

taurran

iTrader: (18)

Well that's the thing. I honestly saw some nice looking builds come out of PF, but these were the people that he had no personal ties to, and that he didn't "hook up".

It was the people that he had in his pocket with special deals and builds that really got the brunt of it. If you got a good price you were last on priorities there, and any work that you did get was rushed.

coachk

iTrader: (21)

QUOTE=IIQuickSilverIIB] you cant just promise also the world out of a build for 10k and then find out that you don't know what you are doing and its going to take a lot more work and then you come back to the customer saying its 15k[/B]THIS WAS ONE OF THE MAJOR BUSINESS MISTAKES I SPEAK OF. BUT REMEMBER ALL 3 CASES THAT CRAIG SPEAKS OF WERE ALL GUYS THAT WERE LOOKING FOR CUSTOM SETUPS/ONE OFS OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT.WHEN A SHOP IS DOING A "PROJECT CAR" IT TAKES ALOT OF TIME. ONCE AGAIN JT REALIZES THAT THIS WAS A MAJOR SCREWUP,MOSTLY ON HIS PART FOR NOT HANDLING IT AS A BUSINESS AND INSTEAD DOING IT AS FRIENDS.

and that there are all this hours of extra work done...thats really more "time spent figuring stuff out", or fixing "issues" that the customer didnt creat since they had their cars down for over a year, have you been through that and worst at the end of the journey its still fail? There is not "too many cooks" for issues, if a customer pays him for an engine and he outsources it, its still all through him and his responsability if that engine fails AGREED TO A POINT. IT WOULD THEN BE UP TO JT TO GO AFTER/SETTLE UP WITH THE PERSON THAT BUILT THE ENGINE. THATS SOMETHING THAT THE CUSTOMER SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DEAL WITH..

Everything else I totally agree with you on. Just my opinion

coachk

iTrader: (21)

I am very familiar with Shanes car as well because Shane and I talk alot to one another. Shanes a cool guy and understands,for the most part, about his build. It has been a nightmare for both him and JT. Once again a bad business decision on JT's part. Same goes for Jason build.

My car got turned around quicker because, even though JT is a friend, I had everything in writing the way it should always be and I paid him in full.

coachk

iTrader: (21)

99% correct and that was the downfall of PF.. Nothing more-nothing less.

taurran

iTrader: (18)

Not all of them. There are more issues I haven't brought up, and have even already brought to light.

Hell, I remember even YOU got mad when your car sat there for only 3 months not getting much done. You had to jump through hoops to prod him into getting it finished, and I think he had more at stake in your car because you wanted to go into business with him. You were not the normal customer and even you got the runaround.



You're GREATLY underestimating the "time" it takes for a project shop car. Does your "time" include sitting in the corner for months on end, with a dead battery, collecting dust, with flat tires? All of these cars in question were sitting there for that long.

It took him almost a year to assemble Shane's motor (which was already built by GTM), modify some headers with flanges, and bolt it and the turbo kit on the car. That is definitely the worst case but my own car was just sitting there untouched for months at a time as well.

You've never been in a situation when your car was being held by a shop and you can't reallt do much about it, so I can't expect you to identify. But don't make light of the situation and try to play it off as "normal" project time. That's ********.

coachk

iTrader: (21)

Agreed...I suck at figuring out this quoting stuff. But they didn't have computers when I was growing up,so I'm still learning,albeit very slowly.

taurran

iTrader: (18)

There's always more to it, don't kid yourself. You're not even thinking about Lakeland Chris' motor incident. Jason on these boards has had issues with his car that Sharif has had to deal with since. Ask Sharif about cleaning up messes with PF cars.

A major problem with the quality of the work was the employee work ethic. They'd sit around and jerk off for days, then work hard and sling a car together in a single day. When you're always rushing, it's not going to be quality work.

Cloud35

I don't know the specifics so I will offer an unbiased opinion on the matter. coach, how can you not agree with those statements? Basic contract law dictates that you're not even supposed to do that. If you contracted to perform a specific job for X amount of dollars, then that is what you're supposed to do. If you cannot do it, that does not give you the right to leave the car half done and ask for more money. If you cannot honor the contract, then it is up to the breaching party to restore both parties to their original state before the contract were made. Meaning that the car should be restored to its original condition when it first arrived and any monies paid should be refunded. He isn't allowed to keep those cars at all if he couldn't honor the original contract. IMO, that is considered theft. Now, if the customers have yet to pay the full amount of the original agreed upon price, then JT should have put a mechanic's lien on those titles.

As for the outsourcing comment, how can you not agree with that either? Consider this, say you brought your car in for a warranty spark plugs. (Hypothetical situation here folks so brands may not be accurate) Would it be ok for Nissan to deny your claim because they said those are NGK or Denso plugs because that's where they outsourced the plugs from? No, it would not be right. It would be Nissan's obligation because they chose to outsource those plugs, not the end consumer. What if your rim fractured from faulty casting, can Nissan deny your claim and say, "Sorry. You're gonna have to take that up with Mackin Industries." No. So if JT chose to outsource a motor as part of his work, why would he not be responsible?

I'm not trying to offend you or anything. I know that you're a long time and respected member here but I think your interests here may conflict with your ability to see the bigger picture. As a long time lurker with really no allegiance here in the FI forum, I figure I'd just lend an outside unbiased opinion.

-Jim

taurran

iTrader: (18)

It would have been different if he blew up your motor or built you a bad one, and he had to fix his errors. Luckily for you, he needed you for his business ventures and wouldn't screw you over. That or you'd just take him to court.

I paid him in full too. But when he's fixing things for you, you're at his mercy. Understand?


I'm not going to dig into Shane's project any longer as it's really between him and Jeremy. I'm not sure what's going on with it now but I guess some updates would be cool.

I know if I were him I'd be really hating life about now.

taurran

iTrader: (18)

Very well stated and I agree entirely.

Motormouth

iTrader: (44)

and no offense, but that is not a failure of his business sense, but his mechanical skill as well, because he should have been able to accurately time, price and design any job he decided to undertake. Greed, zeal or ignorance it doesn't really matter the reasoning behind his decisions.

These problems stray past his business acumen issues and to continually push back (coachk) and try to limit the culpability to this is only -at least to me- you defending a friend. But that isn't really called for.