momentum performance
06-07-2009, 06:50 PM
#61
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I want to see tests done that confirm the wastegate placement affects performance. I still do not see any data supporting or condeming the placement. I have had my doubts about the placement as well yet NO ONE has explained why it was built into the crossover pipe and not after the banks meet. I hear crickets from PL when I have asked the question in the past.
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 06-07-2009 at 06:57 PM.
06-07-2009, 07:36 PM
#62
Registered User
Instead of spending 7000 on a powerlab kit and "knocking it off" we chose to spend 7000 on a datalogging system to make sure that our kit is as effecient as it can be. Seemed like a better investment. I'm not bashing or stating on opinion, it is simple fact that the only way exhaust from the driver side head can get to that wastegate is to flow upstream towards the passenger side header. Are you denying that statement in bold yes or no?
How does a Wastegate work?
A Wastegate is simply a turbine bypass valve. It works by diverting some portion of the exhaust gas around, instead of through, the turbine. This limits the amount of power that the turbine can deliver to the compressor, thereby limiting the turbo speed and boost level that the compressor provides.
* The Wastegate valve can be "internal" or "external". For internal Wastegates, the valve itself is integrated into the turbine housing and is opened by a turbo-mounted boost-referenced actuator.
* An external Wastegate is a self-contained valve and actuator unit that is completely separate from the turbocharger.
* In either case, the actuator is calibrated (or set electronically with an electronic boost controller) by internal spring pressure to begin opening the Wastegate valve at a predetermined boost level.
* When this boost level is reached, the valve will open and begin to bypass exhaust gas, preventing boost from increasing.
Soooooooooooooo, When the driver and passage side headers bolt up to the crossover pipe, they merge together at the lower section of the up-pipe. Yes, on the Powerlab kit the wastegate is positioned closer to the passenger side (or right bank for you RHD Z33 owners), but please tell me how this hurts performance? The pressure/exhaust gases/however you want to interpret it is going to be expelled from the crossover section. Hense allowing the turbo to make XX amount of boost. Are you trying to say that by having the wastegate on the crossover, rather than in your location the car makes false boost readings?
So please enlighten me how having the wastegate located in your location is DRASTICALLY more efficient that the Powerlab setup, because I would really like to know!
06-07-2009, 07:58 PM
#64
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Trying to think through it...
If it is expelling pressure, then the WG is doing it's job, which the PL kit/ Tial does just fine. I had/have no problems with overboost or underboost. Shouldn't it all be about the amount of exhaust getting to the turbo? Does it matter that the left bank provides a bit more of this gas to the turbo? Maybe it causes unequal backpressure, but the engine is still working as hard as it would given a post-collector WG? I doubt this would affect A/F ratio bank-to-bank unless it is affected by backpressure?
Jorge - just to be clear, i'm not knocking the kit, I am just in search of some techincal knowledge to answer the question I have had for a while now. No one has reported a problem with this, so it does not seem to be a notable issue, so no one talks about it.
If it is expelling pressure, then the WG is doing it's job, which the PL kit/ Tial does just fine. I had/have no problems with overboost or underboost. Shouldn't it all be about the amount of exhaust getting to the turbo? Does it matter that the left bank provides a bit more of this gas to the turbo? Maybe it causes unequal backpressure, but the engine is still working as hard as it would given a post-collector WG? I doubt this would affect A/F ratio bank-to-bank unless it is affected by backpressure?
Jorge - just to be clear, i'm not knocking the kit, I am just in search of some techincal knowledge to answer the question I have had for a while now. No one has reported a problem with this, so it does not seem to be a notable issue, so no one talks about it.
06-07-2009, 08:01 PM
#65
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Welcome to the my350z forced induction section. All the frequent posters in this section act like douche bags. You can easily identify who they are by now they're the ones trying to save face for intense motorsports. RudeG and Quicksilver need to quit swinging from intense's ******* you're just as bad as the people defending scott bush. You're their customers and you're obviously giving a very biased opinion of their products in order to defend it against momentum's kit. I'm no expert but I can understand what momentum is saying. If the wastegate is not placed to give equal flow to both cylinder banks one of them is going to run more lean or rich than the other which isn't good for the engine.
Last edited by welderz; 06-07-2009 at 08:05 PM.
06-07-2009, 08:08 PM
#66
Registered User
Nice copy and paste... Didn't answer my simple question though.
It's not just positioned closer to the passenger side its positioned on the passenger side well before the two have merged. So like you pasted the wastegate expels exhaust gas this should be an equal amount of gas from each side of the engine. The gas on the passenger side moves from the head towards the opening and out, the rest of the gas continues towards the "Y". The gas coming from the driver side moves through its secondary and into the "Y" where if its going to go out the wastegate it has to now make a 180 degree turn and go against the flow of the exhaust gas from the passenger bank. Again. Do you deny that anything I just said is true?
False boost numbers? I'm not even sure what you mean.
Our wastegate is located well after the Y at as close to a tangent as possible to the up-pipe so that exhaust flows smoothly and equally from both banks out through the wastegate. Every other turbo kit for a Z is done the same way.
It's not just positioned closer to the passenger side its positioned on the passenger side well before the two have merged. So like you pasted the wastegate expels exhaust gas this should be an equal amount of gas from each side of the engine. The gas on the passenger side moves from the head towards the opening and out, the rest of the gas continues towards the "Y". The gas coming from the driver side moves through its secondary and into the "Y" where if its going to go out the wastegate it has to now make a 180 degree turn and go against the flow of the exhaust gas from the passenger bank. Again. Do you deny that anything I just said is true?
False boost numbers? I'm not even sure what you mean.
Our wastegate is located well after the Y at as close to a tangent as possible to the up-pipe so that exhaust flows smoothly and equally from both banks out through the wastegate. Every other turbo kit for a Z is done the same way.
So your going to tell me that the exhaust gases on the passenger side of both kits doesn't lose any velocity moving from one side of the motor to the other, and that the driver side exhaust gases are hindering some performance of some sort? I'm still NOT understanding how there wastegate location is inefficient.
Let me brake it down for you...Let's just say the exhaust gases are flowing 600cfm out of each runner of each cylinder on both sides. By the time the headers meet any portion of the hot-side of the turbo kit, all three cylinders from each bank have merged. Following me so far? The Powerlab kit has a 180 dagree bend off the driver side header to the v-band of the merge for the crossover.. still with me? The passneger side header has roughly 8" before the v-bang on the waastegate, and then roughly 15"-20" from the wastegate to the v-band on the merge of the crossover. Still following?
Now, before the car reaches the wastegate spring pressure, all 6 cylinders are flowing roughly the same at the merge. There is roughly 12-18" of 3" up-pipe after the merge. Exhaust gas velocities are more than likely equalized before it reaches the turbine (Only the proper sensors and a lot of data analysis can determine the exact numbers for this). So there seems to be no issues thus far, IMO.
Now, when the wastegate valve opens and expels some of the exhaust gases from the crossover, there will be less air flow from the passenger side and roughly the same from the driver side. So lets just say... 600cfm from the driver side, and 300cfm from the passenger. The exhaust gases will still equalize in the up-pipe.
More air = More Boost... Less air = Less Boost.
So break it down for me homie. Dieing to know what the BIG difference is. Remember... I'm just a forum member. Your representing your business.
06-07-2009, 08:12 PM
#67
Registered User
Trying to think through it...
If it is expelling pressure, then the WG is doing it's job, which the PL kit/ Tial does just fine. I had/have no problems with overboost or underboost. Shouldn't it all be about the amount of exhaust getting to the turbo? Does it matter that the left bank provides a bit more of this gas to the turbo? Maybe it causes unequal backpressure, but the engine is still working as hard as it would given a post-collector WG? I doubt this would affect A/F ratio bank-to-bank unless it is affected by backpressure?
If it is expelling pressure, then the WG is doing it's job, which the PL kit/ Tial does just fine. I had/have no problems with overboost or underboost. Shouldn't it all be about the amount of exhaust getting to the turbo? Does it matter that the left bank provides a bit more of this gas to the turbo? Maybe it causes unequal backpressure, but the engine is still working as hard as it would given a post-collector WG? I doubt this would affect A/F ratio bank-to-bank unless it is affected by backpressure?
06-07-2009, 08:13 PM
#68
Wow, so many drama queens here.
Who cares if the guy stated that the PL kit has "a huge flaw". It is one mans oppinion, that is why you research before building or buying. IMO all the ST kits (except the APS ST) are the same and have same potential. All of them mount in the same crappy location, where you need to **** around with all the A/C lines and deal with ratling do to the piping running so close to everything.
If you don't like this kit don't buy it. If you don't like any of the kits out there, desighn your own, I did. I am the only one with a turbo sitting behind the transmision. Nobody can say that I "copied some other kit" . I think it's just as good as any other kit out there, if not better. I can put any turbo I want under there. I like the fact that my engine bay stays nice and cool, I also like the fact that I didn't have to do any modifications under the hood. Afterall, it's just piping. Oh, and I got the same treatment here as you are getting now, when I set out to build my own kit. So, welcome to the FI section. The regulars here know it ALL.
It's another oppinion, so stop crying about it.
Scott, you have a valid point. The problem is that you don't have evidence to support it. Personally, I would never route it that way because it doesn't make sence. Nobody has had issues with it though, at least not published. So it's a moot point.
Who cares if the guy stated that the PL kit has "a huge flaw". It is one mans oppinion, that is why you research before building or buying. IMO all the ST kits (except the APS ST) are the same and have same potential. All of them mount in the same crappy location, where you need to **** around with all the A/C lines and deal with ratling do to the piping running so close to everything.
If you don't like this kit don't buy it. If you don't like any of the kits out there, desighn your own, I did. I am the only one with a turbo sitting behind the transmision. Nobody can say that I "copied some other kit" . I think it's just as good as any other kit out there, if not better. I can put any turbo I want under there. I like the fact that my engine bay stays nice and cool, I also like the fact that I didn't have to do any modifications under the hood. Afterall, it's just piping. Oh, and I got the same treatment here as you are getting now, when I set out to build my own kit. So, welcome to the FI section. The regulars here know it ALL.
It's another oppinion, so stop crying about it.
Scott, you have a valid point. The problem is that you don't have evidence to support it. Personally, I would never route it that way because it doesn't make sence. Nobody has had issues with it though, at least not published. So it's a moot point.
Last edited by BoostedProbe; 06-07-2009 at 08:22 PM.
06-07-2009, 08:18 PM
#69
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Wow, so many drama queens here.
Who cares if the guy stated that the PL kit has "a huge flaw". It is one mans oppinion, that is why you research before building or buying. IMO all the ST kits (except the APS ST) are the same and have same potential. All of them mount in the same crappy location, where you need to **** around with all the A/C lines and deal with ratling do to the piping running so close to everything.
If you don't like this kit don't buy it. If you don't like any of the kits out there, desighn your own, I did. I am the only one with a turbo sitting behind the transmision. Nobody can say that I "copied some other kit" . I think it's just as good as any other kit out there, if not better. I can put any turbo I want under there. I like the fact that my engine bay stays nice and cool, I also like the fact that I didn't have to do any modifications under the hood.
It's another oppinion, so stop crying about it.
Scott, you have a valid point. The problem is that you don't have evidence to support it. Personally, I would never route it that way because it doesn't make sence. Nobody has had issues with it though, at least not published. So it's a moot point.
Who cares if the guy stated that the PL kit has "a huge flaw". It is one mans oppinion, that is why you research before building or buying. IMO all the ST kits (except the APS ST) are the same and have same potential. All of them mount in the same crappy location, where you need to **** around with all the A/C lines and deal with ratling do to the piping running so close to everything.
If you don't like this kit don't buy it. If you don't like any of the kits out there, desighn your own, I did. I am the only one with a turbo sitting behind the transmision. Nobody can say that I "copied some other kit" . I think it's just as good as any other kit out there, if not better. I can put any turbo I want under there. I like the fact that my engine bay stays nice and cool, I also like the fact that I didn't have to do any modifications under the hood.
It's another oppinion, so stop crying about it.
Scott, you have a valid point. The problem is that you don't have evidence to support it. Personally, I would never route it that way because it doesn't make sence. Nobody has had issues with it though, at least not published. So it's a moot point.
.
06-07-2009, 08:23 PM
#70
New Member
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Wow, so many drama queens here.
Who cares if the guy stated that the PL kit has "a huge flaw". It is one mans oppinion, that is why you research before building or buying. IMO all the ST kits (except the APS ST) are the same and have same potential. All of them mount in the same crappy location, where you need to **** around with all the A/C lines and deal with ratling do to the piping running so close to everything.
If you don't like this kit don't buy it. If you don't like any of the kits out there, desighn your own, I did. I am the only one with a turbo sitting behind the transmision. Nobody can say that I "copied some other kit" . I think it's just as good as any other kit out there, if not better. I can put any turbo I want under there. I like the fact that my engine bay stays nice and cool, I also like the fact that I didn't have to do any modifications under the hood. Afterall, it's just piping. Oh, and I got the same treatment here as you are getting now, when I set out to build my own kit. So, welcome to the FI section. The regulars here know it ALL.
Scott, you have a valid point. The problem is that you don't have evidence to support it. Personally, I would never route it that way because it doesn't make sence. Nobody has had issues with it though, at least not published. So it's a moot point.
Who cares if the guy stated that the PL kit has "a huge flaw". It is one mans oppinion, that is why you research before building or buying. IMO all the ST kits (except the APS ST) are the same and have same potential. All of them mount in the same crappy location, where you need to **** around with all the A/C lines and deal with ratling do to the piping running so close to everything.
If you don't like this kit don't buy it. If you don't like any of the kits out there, desighn your own, I did. I am the only one with a turbo sitting behind the transmision. Nobody can say that I "copied some other kit" . I think it's just as good as any other kit out there, if not better. I can put any turbo I want under there. I like the fact that my engine bay stays nice and cool, I also like the fact that I didn't have to do any modifications under the hood. Afterall, it's just piping. Oh, and I got the same treatment here as you are getting now, when I set out to build my own kit. So, welcome to the FI section. The regulars here know it ALL.
Scott, you have a valid point. The problem is that you don't have evidence to support it. Personally, I would never route it that way because it doesn't make sence. Nobody has had issues with it though, at least not published. So it's a moot point.
who else used to do that here(vendor)?... all the people whos shops have all closed now
Most of you defending scott had a great time with him up at zdayz,
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 06-07-2009 at 08:33 PM.
06-07-2009, 08:31 PM
#71
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Go back and read your posts you called them out and said it's the same as the powerlab kit but when they point out the differences you get all butthurt about it and say they're bashing powerlab when they answered your question.
Last edited by welderz; 06-07-2009 at 08:35 PM.
06-07-2009, 08:35 PM
#72
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you are totally missing the point... do you see HKS coming in and bashing greddy on their release of their turbo kit? did you see pl bashing sfr? did you see jwt, cjm... bashing any vendor ever in a public thread?.... i am sure sharif has opinions on other kits, but do you see him going on the STS thread and saying something? (get it?)... i dont think so... its not like just a regular member is talking here, and its no coincidence that this shop chose to talk about PL kit on their first posts in their first thread on the boards... its bashing... (some of old timers will remember why APS is banned here)
who else used to do that here(vendor)?... all the people whos shops have all closed now
Most of you defending scott had a great time with him up at zdayz,
who else used to do that here(vendor)?... all the people whos shops have all closed now
Most of you defending scott had a great time with him up at zdayz,
06-07-2009, 08:36 PM
#73
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Quite a few of those that talk most **** have had their shops closed now though, some ended up in epic fail(karma), you know this
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 06-07-2009 at 08:41 PM.
06-07-2009, 08:39 PM
#74
you are totally missing the point... do you see HKS coming in and bashing greddy on their release of their turbo kit? did you see pl bashing sfr? did you see jwt, cjm... bashing any vendor ever in a public thread?.... i am sure sharif has opinions on other kits, but do you see him going on the STS thread and saying something? (get it?)... i dont think so... its not like just a regular member is talking here, and its no coincidence that this shop chose to talk about PL kit on their first posts in their first thread on the boards... its bashing... (some of old timers will remember why APS is banned here)
who else used to do that here(vendor)?... all the people whos shops have all closed now
Most of you defending scott had a great time with him up at zdayz,
who else used to do that here(vendor)?... all the people whos shops have all closed now
Most of you defending scott had a great time with him up at zdayz,
Look at the TN kit, has anybody said anything good about it recently? Now look at how many they have sold.
I am not defending anybody here, I don't know who Scott is. I didn't mee him, and probably never will.
Last edited by BoostedProbe; 06-07-2009 at 08:42 PM.
06-07-2009, 08:40 PM
#75
Registered User
The I/C piping on the Powerlab kit has 4 pieces... there's has 3. The ONLY difference (and this is based on the pictures I can see) is the pipe from the TB to the passenger side headlight is 1-piece on there's and 2-pieces on the Powerlab kit. There bends are near identical at first glance as well. If you were to attach the two pieces I am talking about and put it next to the Momentum one, I would bet they would be pretty damn close.
06-07-2009, 08:41 PM
#76
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WTF do you expect them to say. That their kit isn't as good as powerlab of course they aren't going to do that. Any business is going to advertise on how their product is better than their competitors product.
06-07-2009, 08:43 PM
#77
Registered User
06-07-2009, 08:45 PM
#78
Registered User
Look at this:
Then go back and look at the picture of my car
You'll notice that the trends in both pressure and corresponds to wastegate placement. "exhaust pres" is the sensor on the left in the picture which corresponds to the wastegate with the smoother transition and as no surprise has less back pressure.
You will also notice EGT 2 and 4 are higher (this is consistent every pull) it's no coincidence than those two cylinders less tangent with the wastegate port.
Then go back and look at the picture of my car
You'll notice that the trends in both pressure and corresponds to wastegate placement. "exhaust pres" is the sensor on the left in the picture which corresponds to the wastegate with the smoother transition and as no surprise has less back pressure.
You will also notice EGT 2 and 4 are higher (this is consistent every pull) it's no coincidence than those two cylinders less tangent with the wastegate port.
06-07-2009, 08:46 PM
#79
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did you see how the intake pipe is routed the ~same way as the PL kit? which is why i said at first glance it seems... he didnt point at the differences since he said he doesnt know or seen the pl kit to begin with, mixed in there he said what his kit has and that would have been fair square...thats not what we are talking about here, read again...and i dont work for PL to count as PL came here and started bashing
if its who i think you are talking about it was brought up and some drama started from that...so everytime someone has said somethign like this, its turn out to be wrong move move or well deserved like in the case of vrt/ra...since they used to also talk shlt openly on the forums....
Quite a few of those that talk most **** have had their shops closed now though, some ended up in epic fail(karma), you know this
if its who i think you are talking about it was brought up and some drama started from that...so everytime someone has said somethign like this, its turn out to be wrong move move or well deserved like in the case of vrt/ra...since they used to also talk shlt openly on the forums....
Quite a few of those that talk most **** have had their shops closed now though, some ended up in epic fail(karma), you know this
I just think you guys are over reacting on a bated response. This is very reminiscent of the old school MIA / Craig wars with the TN kit. There will be no end to this that any party agrees on.
Last edited by Jason333; 06-07-2009 at 08:49 PM.
06-07-2009, 08:50 PM
#80
The I/C piping on the Powerlab kit has 4 pieces... there's has 3. The ONLY difference (and this is based on the pictures I can see) is the pipe from the TB to the passenger side headlight is 1-piece on there's and 2-pieces on the Powerlab kit. There bends are near identical at first glance as well. If you were to attach the two pieces I am talking about and put it next to the Momentum one, I would bet they would be pretty damn close.
The engine bay is very tight, and there really is not much room for creativity.