Procharger Comments from Vice President
12-17-2003, 07:08 AM
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Procharger Comments from Vice President
PART 1
Kevin,
Who are you, and what is the basis of your suggestion?
We pride ourselves on not only industry-leading power gains, but also
industry-leading engine and supercharger reliability. I would be willing to
bet a large sum of money that the instances of engine damage among our
customers in the history of our company have been far below that of any of
our competitors, thanks to our use of intercooling and self-contained
blowers, as well as our diligent engineering and tuning. I also know for a
fact that our superchargers themselves are far more durable than our
competitors, which is illustrated by our superior supercharger redlines (max
operating rpm's) and warranties.
It is most helpful to discuss facts, not rumours and lies on the internet,
or claims which can not be proved. It is our understanding that instances
of engine damage on 350Z's have been caused by the following issues:
- installation on an unhealthy motor (previously had nitrous, etc)
(a leakdown test in this situation, prior to installation, is wise)
- raising the factory rev limiter, which raises the max boost level
(raising the limiter to 7100 rpm increases boost pressure to 9+ psi)
- improper tuning (tuning contrary to the supplied owner's manual)
(including dyno tuning w/o proper airflow across the intercooler)
If you have additional information, we would certainly like to learn more.
Please provide the list of customers you speak of. Including their serial
number is most helpful for identification, but customer names are helpful
also.
Big picture, here are the issues as we understand them:
- the constraint to running additional boost on the 350Z is ignition timing,
not fuel delivery. We have tested higher boost levels than what we sell,
testing both higher octane and ignition retard to avoid detonation, and
additional fuel delivery was available with stock injectors, showing that
the constraint is ignition timing. Accordingly we set our boost level at 7
psi. We believe that boost levels above 8 psi require ignition retard on
pump gas, or higher octane fuel. If it was safe to run higher boost we
would have, as the C-2 is capable of 100K rpm and 700 hp. The JIC car and a
local beta vehicle were tested rigorously before the general release of this
product. Both cars have been running extremely strong for 7-8 months now,
including the local customer who has run the **** out of his car, and just
had the car driven across the country to the Sport Z Shootout, where it won
both the autocross and the drag testing (dyno results are not yet known, as
they are being kept under wraps by the magazine). The car is bone stock,
and has been flawless, as has been the JIC car and all but a handful of
customers.
- the system was released in June. To avoid customers overboosting their
engines, we refused to sell pulley changes to customers unless they had a
plan to keep it reliable. (engine modifications, ignition retard, etc).
At the time we released the system, solutions to raise the rev limiter were
not readily available, so by us limiting the sale of pulleys, it is not
surprising that there were no instances of engine damage from overboosting.
Unfortunately, this changed once people were able to get into the computer
and raise the rev limiter. We continue to work to educate the market on
this issue.
- For the next 4 months or so, we shipped a lot of systems, with only one
report of engine damage - on a motor which previously had nitrous. We
weren't there for the install or to know how the customer operates the
vehicle, so it is hard for us to comment, but the use of nitrous is always a
red flag for engine longevity.
- In October Vortech prepared to introduce their 350Z system, and Stillen
prepared to introduce an intercooled version of their existing system in
October. We obviously are the market leader, and while it is not unusual
for companies to take aim at the leader, this instance was unusual.
Apparently to try to create an opening for their product, Vortech sent one
or more employees online to tell lies about our products, including massive
fabrications regarding instances of engine damage. We have documented proof
of this, and are suing Vortech over this.
- Since then, 3 or 4 additional customers have reported engine damage, with
at least 2 being customers who had raised their rev limiters without
changing their supercharger pulleys to keep/lower the boost level to around
7 psi. The specifics of the other customer(s) are unclear, but appeared to
be a tuning issue, or perhaps the car being driven hard after the
installation and prior to dyno tuning.
- The majority of these few instances of engine damage do seem to have
occured on the dyno, with the damage becoming evident on the dyno or shortly
thereafter. Repeated dyno pulls without adequate airflow across the
intercooler and engine will reduce the margin for tuning error. Stick your
hand out the window at 50 mph - few facilities have the ability to create
anywhere near that kind of airflow in their shop, so they need to be careful
to cool down the motor between pulls, and utilize whatever airflow they do
have available. Again, this is common knowledge in markets which have been
using superchargers for years, and we continue working to educate the Z
market more on this issue.
With the large number of systems that we have sold, and with clear causes
for the majority of the problems, our confidence in our product remains very
high. One or two instances of engine damage from improper tuning out of the
large number of systems sold (over 100) is not surprising, especially in a
new market. At that rate, we can't even rule out Nissan factory problems
with the engine, as we obviously weren't there to verify the tuning or
inspect the engine after the damage occurred. That said, we believe that
the majority of problems are being caused by this market being relatively
new to forced induction (typical Corvette and Mustang customers would know
that raising their boost levels above the factory setting is dangerous, and
should not be pursued without a plan), and by dishonesty from our
competitors. And what a dumb move from our competitors, as by trying to
hurt us they have also hurt themselves by scaring some 350Z owners
(apparently like yourself?) with misinformation.
That said, we want our products to be as good as possible. We appreciate
any additional information you can provide.
Best Regards,
Ken C. Jones
Vice President
PART 2
Kevin,
Sorry for the long message. But we take engine damage very seriously around
here, regardless of the cause. Any additional facts, including how you
verified the truth of what you heard regarding the six customers, is
appreciated.
Ken
Kevin,
Who are you, and what is the basis of your suggestion?
We pride ourselves on not only industry-leading power gains, but also
industry-leading engine and supercharger reliability. I would be willing to
bet a large sum of money that the instances of engine damage among our
customers in the history of our company have been far below that of any of
our competitors, thanks to our use of intercooling and self-contained
blowers, as well as our diligent engineering and tuning. I also know for a
fact that our superchargers themselves are far more durable than our
competitors, which is illustrated by our superior supercharger redlines (max
operating rpm's) and warranties.
It is most helpful to discuss facts, not rumours and lies on the internet,
or claims which can not be proved. It is our understanding that instances
of engine damage on 350Z's have been caused by the following issues:
- installation on an unhealthy motor (previously had nitrous, etc)
(a leakdown test in this situation, prior to installation, is wise)
- raising the factory rev limiter, which raises the max boost level
(raising the limiter to 7100 rpm increases boost pressure to 9+ psi)
- improper tuning (tuning contrary to the supplied owner's manual)
(including dyno tuning w/o proper airflow across the intercooler)
If you have additional information, we would certainly like to learn more.
Please provide the list of customers you speak of. Including their serial
number is most helpful for identification, but customer names are helpful
also.
Big picture, here are the issues as we understand them:
- the constraint to running additional boost on the 350Z is ignition timing,
not fuel delivery. We have tested higher boost levels than what we sell,
testing both higher octane and ignition retard to avoid detonation, and
additional fuel delivery was available with stock injectors, showing that
the constraint is ignition timing. Accordingly we set our boost level at 7
psi. We believe that boost levels above 8 psi require ignition retard on
pump gas, or higher octane fuel. If it was safe to run higher boost we
would have, as the C-2 is capable of 100K rpm and 700 hp. The JIC car and a
local beta vehicle were tested rigorously before the general release of this
product. Both cars have been running extremely strong for 7-8 months now,
including the local customer who has run the **** out of his car, and just
had the car driven across the country to the Sport Z Shootout, where it won
both the autocross and the drag testing (dyno results are not yet known, as
they are being kept under wraps by the magazine). The car is bone stock,
and has been flawless, as has been the JIC car and all but a handful of
customers.
- the system was released in June. To avoid customers overboosting their
engines, we refused to sell pulley changes to customers unless they had a
plan to keep it reliable. (engine modifications, ignition retard, etc).
At the time we released the system, solutions to raise the rev limiter were
not readily available, so by us limiting the sale of pulleys, it is not
surprising that there were no instances of engine damage from overboosting.
Unfortunately, this changed once people were able to get into the computer
and raise the rev limiter. We continue to work to educate the market on
this issue.
- For the next 4 months or so, we shipped a lot of systems, with only one
report of engine damage - on a motor which previously had nitrous. We
weren't there for the install or to know how the customer operates the
vehicle, so it is hard for us to comment, but the use of nitrous is always a
red flag for engine longevity.
- In October Vortech prepared to introduce their 350Z system, and Stillen
prepared to introduce an intercooled version of their existing system in
October. We obviously are the market leader, and while it is not unusual
for companies to take aim at the leader, this instance was unusual.
Apparently to try to create an opening for their product, Vortech sent one
or more employees online to tell lies about our products, including massive
fabrications regarding instances of engine damage. We have documented proof
of this, and are suing Vortech over this.
- Since then, 3 or 4 additional customers have reported engine damage, with
at least 2 being customers who had raised their rev limiters without
changing their supercharger pulleys to keep/lower the boost level to around
7 psi. The specifics of the other customer(s) are unclear, but appeared to
be a tuning issue, or perhaps the car being driven hard after the
installation and prior to dyno tuning.
- The majority of these few instances of engine damage do seem to have
occured on the dyno, with the damage becoming evident on the dyno or shortly
thereafter. Repeated dyno pulls without adequate airflow across the
intercooler and engine will reduce the margin for tuning error. Stick your
hand out the window at 50 mph - few facilities have the ability to create
anywhere near that kind of airflow in their shop, so they need to be careful
to cool down the motor between pulls, and utilize whatever airflow they do
have available. Again, this is common knowledge in markets which have been
using superchargers for years, and we continue working to educate the Z
market more on this issue.
With the large number of systems that we have sold, and with clear causes
for the majority of the problems, our confidence in our product remains very
high. One or two instances of engine damage from improper tuning out of the
large number of systems sold (over 100) is not surprising, especially in a
new market. At that rate, we can't even rule out Nissan factory problems
with the engine, as we obviously weren't there to verify the tuning or
inspect the engine after the damage occurred. That said, we believe that
the majority of problems are being caused by this market being relatively
new to forced induction (typical Corvette and Mustang customers would know
that raising their boost levels above the factory setting is dangerous, and
should not be pursued without a plan), and by dishonesty from our
competitors. And what a dumb move from our competitors, as by trying to
hurt us they have also hurt themselves by scaring some 350Z owners
(apparently like yourself?) with misinformation.
That said, we want our products to be as good as possible. We appreciate
any additional information you can provide.
Best Regards,
Ken C. Jones
Vice President
PART 2
Kevin,
Sorry for the long message. But we take engine damage very seriously around
here, regardless of the cause. Any additional facts, including how you
verified the truth of what you heard regarding the six customers, is
appreciated.
Ken
12-17-2003, 07:18 AM
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Who stated that the ATI car won the events for the Sport Z shootout at the track? For all we know the Vortech car won. Quit the B.S. and jabs at the competitors and just state the facts, please.
12-17-2003, 07:23 AM
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Originally posted by BLOBYU
Who stated that the ATI car won the events for the Sport Z shootout at the track? For all we know the Vortech car won. Quit the B.S. and jabs at the competitors and just state the facts, please.
Who stated that the ATI car won the events for the Sport Z shootout at the track? For all we know the Vortech car won. Quit the B.S. and jabs at the competitors and just state the facts, please.
His name is Ken C. Jones. He is the Vice President of PROCHARGER and is the one who stated the above letter, you can contact him at 913-338-2886 with any questions.
12-17-2003, 07:56 AM
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As a potential FI customer, there are a couple of things here that have been bothering me for at least a while.
"who has run the **** out of his car"
When the president of the company talks like this to his market audience, you have to be a little wary of the actual support you can hope to get down the road. At least the quality of that support anyway.
The other more important issue for me is something that was alluded to in one other discussion like this someplace on this forum. The company keeps referring to the relatively low number of enginge blow-ups with their poduct. Well, in miy mind, 2 out of 100 is not a "low" percentage! Not when you are risking a multi-thousand dollar replacement engine cost. Incidentally, the 2 that I gave them credit for is actually more likely a half of the actual blown engines out of 100.
I guess it's possible that this is all the evidence I need to decide that the risks are just not worth the rewards for me. And I guess that is what it comes down to when you try to make a V6 into a V8...is it worth the risk! A personal choice.
I can say that all this arguing back and forth sure makes the systems that come with a drivetrain warranty seem MUCH more attractive!
"who has run the **** out of his car"
When the president of the company talks like this to his market audience, you have to be a little wary of the actual support you can hope to get down the road. At least the quality of that support anyway.
The other more important issue for me is something that was alluded to in one other discussion like this someplace on this forum. The company keeps referring to the relatively low number of enginge blow-ups with their poduct. Well, in miy mind, 2 out of 100 is not a "low" percentage! Not when you are risking a multi-thousand dollar replacement engine cost. Incidentally, the 2 that I gave them credit for is actually more likely a half of the actual blown engines out of 100.
I guess it's possible that this is all the evidence I need to decide that the risks are just not worth the rewards for me. And I guess that is what it comes down to when you try to make a V6 into a V8...is it worth the risk! A personal choice.
I can say that all this arguing back and forth sure makes the systems that come with a drivetrain warranty seem MUCH more attractive!
12-17-2003, 08:33 AM
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I agree with AlienX, they are not inspiring any confidence in me that they have a grip on the real problem or ever intend to research it. I am going to get a supercharger sometime in the spring and unless ATI steps up and replaces motors blown by their product when installed by an authorized installed, they are off my list. I would think that if the percentage is as low as they claim and they sell as many superchargers as they claim, it would be an inconsequential cost to them to just replace the motors and save face with their potential consumers.
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12-17-2003, 08:58 AM
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Ken:
I want to thank you for posting your response. I have always felt that for a product to make customers happy it should:
1. Provide good Performance (ATI has good numbers, no debate from me on that issue).
2. Proper Installation: As you stated, some problems here possibly. Maybe something can be done to provide potiential ATI owners a list of installers you know that do it correctly. Customers may not have a clue of who these installers that do good work can be. I do know that if they get a SC installed and it has problems, they are going to be unhappy regardless of who is at fault.
3. Good product design: I think your post today is a breathe of fresh air on this matter. I can understand to a degree why ATI might not want to come on line with agressive and angry posters however, these are your coustomers and potiential future customers.
Being your role as VP of the company and sharing information regarding what ATI feels are issues affecting problematic cars with ATI SC is a hugh positive move to "educating" Z owners on these issues. Until now, your voice has been over shadowed with stories of people having problem. Maybe th attitude of negative feelings will be reduced if you continue to explain and clarify concerns regarding problems related to the ATI kit. I welcome your input in correcting these issues.
As you know, I have expressed concern in the past. I know certain people were experiencing problems with their cars or worried about having problems. Large debates on line occured filling thread after thread trying to determine what was making these issues occur.
For me personally, I was not 100% sure if it was a product design flaw needing correction, installation issues, or abuse of the car by the owners. Depending on the specific car, it could be more than one of these to be the cause.
Again, I am pleased to see you address these issues and I hope that you work with each concerned owner to pin point their concerns about their car.
Jeff
I want to thank you for posting your response. I have always felt that for a product to make customers happy it should:
1. Provide good Performance (ATI has good numbers, no debate from me on that issue).
2. Proper Installation: As you stated, some problems here possibly. Maybe something can be done to provide potiential ATI owners a list of installers you know that do it correctly. Customers may not have a clue of who these installers that do good work can be. I do know that if they get a SC installed and it has problems, they are going to be unhappy regardless of who is at fault.
3. Good product design: I think your post today is a breathe of fresh air on this matter. I can understand to a degree why ATI might not want to come on line with agressive and angry posters however, these are your coustomers and potiential future customers.
Being your role as VP of the company and sharing information regarding what ATI feels are issues affecting problematic cars with ATI SC is a hugh positive move to "educating" Z owners on these issues. Until now, your voice has been over shadowed with stories of people having problem. Maybe th attitude of negative feelings will be reduced if you continue to explain and clarify concerns regarding problems related to the ATI kit. I welcome your input in correcting these issues.
As you know, I have expressed concern in the past. I know certain people were experiencing problems with their cars or worried about having problems. Large debates on line occured filling thread after thread trying to determine what was making these issues occur.
For me personally, I was not 100% sure if it was a product design flaw needing correction, installation issues, or abuse of the car by the owners. Depending on the specific car, it could be more than one of these to be the cause.
Again, I am pleased to see you address these issues and I hope that you work with each concerned owner to pin point their concerns about their car.
Jeff
Last edited by zland; 12-17-2003 at 09:07 AM.
12-17-2003, 09:05 AM
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WTF?
He is blowing smoke up peoples a$$. How can you sit there and blame everyone but ATI. First every kit I have seen, even stillen at 5.6psi, comes with some kind of timing box. That right there should raise a red flag for Ken. When people buy a FI kit companies should be aware that the mods won't stop there. Also when I plan on Force induction, do you think I am going to baby this car. HELL NO!!!! ATI should fix the timing problem and take blame for something they should of done along time ago just my .02
He is blowing smoke up peoples a$$. How can you sit there and blame everyone but ATI. First every kit I have seen, even stillen at 5.6psi, comes with some kind of timing box. That right there should raise a red flag for Ken. When people buy a FI kit companies should be aware that the mods won't stop there. Also when I plan on Force induction, do you think I am going to baby this car. HELL NO!!!! ATI should fix the timing problem and take blame for something they should of done along time ago just my .02
12-17-2003, 09:17 AM
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I thought it was to all the readers, my error! Anyways, I am happy to see ATI is beginning to talk about the issues ie boost vs A/F mixture vs timing etc. I wish they could have a civil discussion with all concerned so these issues can be put to rest.
Last edited by zland; 12-17-2003 at 09:39 AM.
12-17-2003, 09:42 AM
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The #1 issue, as Ken has very clearly noted, is IGNORANT CUSTOMERS. From what I can tell, 99% of the people on this forum that are interested in buying a supercharger don't have the slightest clue what risks and rewards are associated with installing a blower on an engine.
Anyone who truly expects to have a shop just slap on a blower and drive home without a care in the world needs to do a lot more research. Supercharging an engine is not a risk-free deal. You get more power, but you risk detonation, among other issues. I've seen excerpts posted from ATI's installation manual that make this very clear, but no one seems to want to recognize the dangers, or the fact that ATI warns you about them.
But for 99% of you, ignorance is bliss, and you want to play the blame game. It's ridiculous.
The reality is, timing retard might be a nice thing to have on a boosted car. It's probably something ATI should look into. If I installed a supercharger, I'd attempt to retard timing.. but that's because I like to be a little conservative with my engine. From the looks of it, many people here seem to think it's okay to run on the ragged edge and then cry to ATI when they break something. It's not their fault when you fail to heed their warnings.
Anyone who truly expects to have a shop just slap on a blower and drive home without a care in the world needs to do a lot more research. Supercharging an engine is not a risk-free deal. You get more power, but you risk detonation, among other issues. I've seen excerpts posted from ATI's installation manual that make this very clear, but no one seems to want to recognize the dangers, or the fact that ATI warns you about them.
But for 99% of you, ignorance is bliss, and you want to play the blame game. It's ridiculous.
The reality is, timing retard might be a nice thing to have on a boosted car. It's probably something ATI should look into. If I installed a supercharger, I'd attempt to retard timing.. but that's because I like to be a little conservative with my engine. From the looks of it, many people here seem to think it's okay to run on the ragged edge and then cry to ATI when they break something. It's not their fault when you fail to heed their warnings.
12-17-2003, 09:50 AM
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More from the Vice President of Procharger
PART III
Kevin,
Some facts you may not be aware of:
Stillen's non-intercooled system makes a 60 HP gain - at the crank, not the
wheels, according to their own product literature! No comparison. Their
new intercooled system, as well as Vortech's new system, have no history.
Maybe you don't also realize that we have sold probably 8x more systems than
Stillen and Vortech combined, and that happy customers don't post nearly as
frequently as unhappy ones.
The timing does not "jump", it rises to 29 degrees gradually above 5500 prm,
after peak torque. This is typical - timing is pulled back for peak torque,
then increased after peak torque. The 29 degrees is why we are not running
more boost on this platform.
It was our expectation that customers and dealers would use our tuner kit
(which is identical to the HO Intercooled system, but excludes fuel
components) to run higher boost and power levels, with fuel delivery and
ignition adjustments performed by the dealer. At the time we came to
market, there was no way to adjust timing, but there are now several ways -
as we expected. And as expected, this is beginning to happen. I just saw a
post by a new customer who is running 9 psi with engine modifications and
custom fuel delivery and computer programming.
This is exactly how things are handled in the C5 Corvette market. We sell a
turnkey 7 psi system, and a tuner kit. If people want to run higher boost,
they do the tuner kit - since there are so many different choices for
modified motors, we leave it up to the customer/dealer in that situation.
And your facts are wrong regarding power levels. The typical ProCharged
customer is not only making 360+ rwhp on a dynojet, they are also very
reliable. The percentage of customers having problems who didn't raise
their rev limiter and boost, and didn't have nitrous, is 2% or less. While
we would like to eliminate all cases of engine damage, items like tuning and
third-party modifications are beyond our control. All we can do is work to
educate.
I noticed that you did not provide any information about the six customers
who you claim suffered engine damage after professional installation. Do
you have any additional information?
Best Regards,
Ken
PART IIII
Kevin,
I am very aware of the forum. There is a serious shortage of facts on this
forum, and if the moderators don't start asserting themselves, I would guess
that educated members will move elsewhere - as has happened with other
communities that started their own websites (with a technical focus, and
focus on facts) to get away from the sniping and inaccurate postings. The
BS on the forum started around the time that Vortech, Stillen and Dreamworks
started announcing their new kits, and that Vortech employees started posing
as unaffiliated community members.
Coincidence?
The truth wins in the long run. We faced the same BS in the C5 Corvette
market when Vortech and Magnuson introduced their systems. After the dust
settled, our product was the clear choice for both performance and engine
reliablity. The same will be the case here.
Thanks for your input,
Ken
Kevin,
Some facts you may not be aware of:
Stillen's non-intercooled system makes a 60 HP gain - at the crank, not the
wheels, according to their own product literature! No comparison. Their
new intercooled system, as well as Vortech's new system, have no history.
Maybe you don't also realize that we have sold probably 8x more systems than
Stillen and Vortech combined, and that happy customers don't post nearly as
frequently as unhappy ones.
The timing does not "jump", it rises to 29 degrees gradually above 5500 prm,
after peak torque. This is typical - timing is pulled back for peak torque,
then increased after peak torque. The 29 degrees is why we are not running
more boost on this platform.
It was our expectation that customers and dealers would use our tuner kit
(which is identical to the HO Intercooled system, but excludes fuel
components) to run higher boost and power levels, with fuel delivery and
ignition adjustments performed by the dealer. At the time we came to
market, there was no way to adjust timing, but there are now several ways -
as we expected. And as expected, this is beginning to happen. I just saw a
post by a new customer who is running 9 psi with engine modifications and
custom fuel delivery and computer programming.
This is exactly how things are handled in the C5 Corvette market. We sell a
turnkey 7 psi system, and a tuner kit. If people want to run higher boost,
they do the tuner kit - since there are so many different choices for
modified motors, we leave it up to the customer/dealer in that situation.
And your facts are wrong regarding power levels. The typical ProCharged
customer is not only making 360+ rwhp on a dynojet, they are also very
reliable. The percentage of customers having problems who didn't raise
their rev limiter and boost, and didn't have nitrous, is 2% or less. While
we would like to eliminate all cases of engine damage, items like tuning and
third-party modifications are beyond our control. All we can do is work to
educate.
I noticed that you did not provide any information about the six customers
who you claim suffered engine damage after professional installation. Do
you have any additional information?
Best Regards,
Ken
PART IIII
Kevin,
I am very aware of the forum. There is a serious shortage of facts on this
forum, and if the moderators don't start asserting themselves, I would guess
that educated members will move elsewhere - as has happened with other
communities that started their own websites (with a technical focus, and
focus on facts) to get away from the sniping and inaccurate postings. The
BS on the forum started around the time that Vortech, Stillen and Dreamworks
started announcing their new kits, and that Vortech employees started posing
as unaffiliated community members.
Coincidence?
The truth wins in the long run. We faced the same BS in the C5 Corvette
market when Vortech and Magnuson introduced their systems. After the dust
settled, our product was the clear choice for both performance and engine
reliablity. The same will be the case here.
Thanks for your input,
Ken
12-17-2003, 09:51 AM
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yes
Originally posted by teh215
I don't think that the VP from ATI posted here, it was fluidz posting his response. Did I miss something?
I don't think that the VP from ATI posted here, it was fluidz posting his response. Did I miss something?
you are correct. I am getting emails from him.
12-17-2003, 10:09 AM
#16
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wow.... this guy Ken doesn't think very highly of: COMPETITORS, MY350Z COMMUNITY, OR PEOPLE INSTALLING THEIR KITS. Doesn't he understand that he's shooting himself in the foot with his letters?
Have they passed C.A.R.B. yet? I think Vortech is already working on it. Stillen has theirs. Isn't that a statement towards reliability?.... ooops! sorry. Lack of reliability.
Can I ask a [maybe] stupid question about the dyno Sport Z deal that we are all going nuts about? Why did they drive their own car from Kansas? I thought it was a customer's dyno shootout? Maybe I'm off here, but you have to admit - it is a little suspicious.
my 2cents.
Have they passed C.A.R.B. yet? I think Vortech is already working on it. Stillen has theirs. Isn't that a statement towards reliability?.... ooops! sorry. Lack of reliability.
Can I ask a [maybe] stupid question about the dyno Sport Z deal that we are all going nuts about? Why did they drive their own car from Kansas? I thought it was a customer's dyno shootout? Maybe I'm off here, but you have to admit - it is a little suspicious.
my 2cents.
12-17-2003, 10:19 AM
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Re: Procharger Comments from Vice President
Originally posted by fluidz
....At that rate, we can't even rule out Nissan factory problems
with the engine, as we obviously weren't there to verify the tuning or
inspect the engine after the damage occurred.
....At that rate, we can't even rule out Nissan factory problems
with the engine, as we obviously weren't there to verify the tuning or
inspect the engine after the damage occurred.
Oh my Gizzod!!!......sh*t really does flow downhill!!!!......that's my favorite one.......an engine that has been on the "10 best engines" list for the past 9 years is suddenly faulty
Sounds like there's still some dupes out there i guess that really believe that a 5 thousand dollar kit doesn't need to be tested before its sold.......the VP sounds bound and determined to swindle every last person he can......and from the looks of it, he might have a future customer or two here still
Fluidz, you're pretty close to where i live.......you can check out my car anytime if you wanna verify that everything on my car is stock except for the "100% complete" Procharger kit......if you want a really good laugh, i'll bring my copy of the letter from the ATI Sales Director that contradicts everything the VP just said
12-17-2003, 10:26 AM
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Actually, I thought Kens letters were written in a professional manner with good taste.
I dont think he thinks little of the our foroums, remember after all, that he is keeping his calm all the while people are trying to jab at him wiht a stick.
But then again, everyones viewpoints are always gonna be dictated by their biases.
I.e. resistance is futile. =)
I dont think he thinks little of the our foroums, remember after all, that he is keeping his calm all the while people are trying to jab at him wiht a stick.
But then again, everyones viewpoints are always gonna be dictated by their biases.
I.e. resistance is futile. =)
12-17-2003, 10:51 AM
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Do you even own a Procharger TrzVpr?
The ATI car was a ringer with octane booster and a special driver give me a break!
IThe letter is full of falsehoods.
fluidz,
Come down to Sac (30 minutes) and see my recipt for the 9 lb pulleys in early July when my car was at an Authorized Installer working on the phone with the Tech WHO WROTE the manual.
NO TIMING RETARD OR ENGINE MODIFICATIONS HAD BEEN DONE.
N20 when installed properly is safe.
I could go on and on but this is one of those things where some people just have their mind set. I would take N20 back over this kit any day and I can't give away the kit or any of its parts.
Is that all they do is write letters of blame?
Heck they even sent a letter of N20 use to court on my case lol.
Bonz and AA Mike now you know, raising the rev limiter to 7100 puts you at 9 lbs so you are voided.
AA is raising the rev limiter to 7100 it's dangerous ATI confirms it and you are doing anyway it shame on you for lying to me to get me to retract the things I said about you, you are a snake. Ignoring PM's while logged on, lying to me.
Shame on ATI shame on all this misinformation and those who support it. The kit sucks unless you spend thousands but according to them all AA cars are running 9 lbs!
ATI and AA, two acronyms I wish never came into my life!
The ATI car was a ringer with octane booster and a special driver give me a break!
IThe letter is full of falsehoods.
fluidz,
Come down to Sac (30 minutes) and see my recipt for the 9 lb pulleys in early July when my car was at an Authorized Installer working on the phone with the Tech WHO WROTE the manual.
NO TIMING RETARD OR ENGINE MODIFICATIONS HAD BEEN DONE.
N20 when installed properly is safe.
I could go on and on but this is one of those things where some people just have their mind set. I would take N20 back over this kit any day and I can't give away the kit or any of its parts.
Is that all they do is write letters of blame?
Heck they even sent a letter of N20 use to court on my case lol.
Bonz and AA Mike now you know, raising the rev limiter to 7100 puts you at 9 lbs so you are voided.
AA is raising the rev limiter to 7100 it's dangerous ATI confirms it and you are doing anyway it shame on you for lying to me to get me to retract the things I said about you, you are a snake. Ignoring PM's while logged on, lying to me.
Shame on ATI shame on all this misinformation and those who support it. The kit sucks unless you spend thousands but according to them all AA cars are running 9 lbs!
ATI and AA, two acronyms I wish never came into my life!
12-17-2003, 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by BLOBYU
Have they passed C.A.R.B. yet? I think Vortech is already working on it. Stillen has theirs. Isn't that a statement towards reliability?.... ooops! sorry. Lack of reliability.
Have they passed C.A.R.B. yet? I think Vortech is already working on it. Stillen has theirs. Isn't that a statement towards reliability?.... ooops! sorry. Lack of reliability.
CARB = "California Air Resources Board," not "Independent Reliability Test Labs"