azrael

I believe Ken is referring to a manufacturing flaw from the factory, not a flaw in the design. These things do happen, even to the best engine manufacturers. There are Z's on the street right now, with manufacturing flaws, and adding a blower to a flawed engine will only make the situation worse, possibly leading to a failure. Such a situation wouldn't really be ATIs fault, although it would be nearly impossible to get Nissan to warranty an engine in this situation. It's just an unfortunate situation that sometimes happens when you're dealing with major aftermarket power adders.

fluidz

PART IIII


Kevin,

Are you saying that we should take responsibility for mistakes made in the
field by customers or dealers? What if a customer accidentally runs 87
octane, when the owner's manual clearly states that 91 octane is required?
What if a customer or dealer botches the installation or tuning? Should we
pick up the tab in these instances? Are you saying that it's OK for
customers to abuse their motors with nitrous or whatever and then if they
run into problems after installing their system, then it's our fault and we
should pick up the tab?

We can only be responsible for what we can control. I know of no other
aftermarket company that will assume responsibility for mistakes made by
others! Doing so is not only wrong, it would just encourage others to not
worry about making mistakes, because they have a blank check, and then there
would be a ton more broken motors! Hey, if I can be completely
irresponsible and thrash my car and have someone else pick up the tab,
that's great! Sign me up.

If a customer runs higher boost by changing pulleys or raising their rev
limiter, we agree that they need ignition retard, higher octane, or to lower
their compression. If not, it's not necessary, but customers can do it if
they so choose. It would allow someone to be less precise with their tune,
if someone is not confident about their tuning skills and don't have a good
dealer nearby.

If you are so worried about it, why don't you or whoever you are writing
this on behalf of go purchase ignition retard for use with the system? We
certainly don't tell anybody they can't or shouldn't do this. In areas in
which only poor quality fuel is available, and if the owner street races a
lot, etc, it's not a bad idea. But if the boost level is raised, it becomes
mandatory.

And we'd be glad to help advise - we've tested several of the products which
allow computer modifications on the Z.

Ken

fluidz

PART IIIII


Good question.

Let's start with pricing. The new intercooled Stillen system costs over
$6000 with a new painted hood ($5250 for the system, $800 for a painted
hood), has greater shipping expense to get it to you, and takes much more
time to install than our system. It requires engine disassembly, so takes
like 15 hours even w/o the time for the hood, vs 8 hours for ours - at
$75/hr that's an additional $500. So at least $600 more than the
ProCharger, probably more, and produces less power. Even though they're
able to sell the system a little cheaper than ours due to the roots blower
being much cheaper to manufacturer (and far less efficient) than ours, the
extras kill you with that system.

Ignition retard definitely costs less than $600 if someone wanted to buy it
on their own, so even if they did buy ignition retard on their own, we're
still the best value - and we don't require the hassle and other issues
associated with engine disassembly and a new hood - not to mention more
power. And the ignition retard would allow someone to run even greater
boost, for an even larger power advantage - but we don't recommend that, as
we have not done long-term testing on higher boost with ignition retard.
But it should be possible, with reliablity at boost levels above 7 psi.

As for whether to include something in the system, what we try to look at is
the following:
1) what do most customers want
2) would not including it in the kit prevent buying on their own

We believe most customers do not want to pay for ignition retard at the
boost level we are selling. If they turn up the boost, they would. They
can buy ignition retard on their own, and the need to do custom fuel
delivery and computer programming is both explicitly and implicitly
discussed with respect to the tuner kit, which we packaged as a separate kit
for this very reason.

So if we add ignition retard as standard equipment, then we have to raise
the price of the system, and the majority of customers receive something
they don't want, or they have to ask dealers to omit the ignition retard
from the system and receive a discount.

We believe our current approach is better. There are also several ways to
retard timing, and not everyone would prefer the one we packaged in our
system - so again, they would have to ask that it be removed from the
system.

As for failure rate, I would like a 0% failure rate, but that is not
achievable given that customers and dealers are human. And reality is that
even if we did package ignition retard in the system, some customers would
get greedy and turn up the boost too far. We've seen it happen in other
markets that we serve. People are always wanting more power - we see it
now, in that some customers are tuning the system leaner than we recommend,
wanting even more power, or raising their rev limiter - which raises their
boost level to unsafe levels. But then again, some people are adding
ignition retard in conjunction with raising their rev limiters and/or boost
levels, which is what we recommend for anyone who chooses to run a higher
boost level.

Hopefully this makes sense.

Ken

elektrik_juggernaut

i can dig it......if Ken or his company had ever said anything else except "it wasn't us!", i could listen to what he has to say......i've read a lot of ATI's stuff......including personal emails from their tech department........they never, never even consider that there might be something wrong with their system.........furthermore, they don't really care if something is wrong with their system.......in the domestic crowd they get propped up by their customers that do their R&D for them, and they're expecting the same thing to happen here

i've read your posts azrael, and i know your an educated guy......does it sound like Ken is trying to say that they didn't know about the timing issues before they released the kit?.....thats what it sounds like to me.......i have an email from their tech department that says different:

what do you think about the part where he tries to say that platinum plugs can cause detonation?.......i could be wrong, but that sounds a bit far-fetched to me, since on my car, the stock platinums and the coppers they suggest are the same heat range......and is it just me, or does the tone of even their tech department have a kind of condescending manner to it?

BTW, i do have their recommended plugs in the car

12SecZ

It's just you bro ATI is the shizzle and the VP should get a promotion for setting us all straight. Everyones car is gonna be fine.

But what about all that WOT only don't feather stuff etc?
You cannot say anything bad about ATI they are the FI Kings! They won 2 maybe 3 of the shoot-outs!

Ya Heard?

skk100

"It requires engine disassembly, so takes
like 15 hours even w/o the time for the hood, vs 8 hours for ours - at
$75/hr that's an additional $500. So at least $600 more than the
ProCharger, probably more, and produces less power. "


FYI - it took the installer only 8 hours to install my STILLEN SC!!! This guy is too much fun. I want him to explian the Big Bang theory to me.

zimbo

iTrader: (4)

I am disappointed to hear that ATI is suing Vortech. I'm in no way condoning the fact that a Vortech employee (of his own initiative and without company authority) posted questionable information is if it were coming from an unafiliated source. But to suggest that it was a coordinated ploy from Vortech marketing is absolutely ridiculous. Fact is, there *HAVE* been a handful of reported ATI detonation problems.

--Steve

elektrik_juggernaut

hey guys........go take a look:


http://superchargersonline.com/forum/

They just removed the ENTIRE Procharger forum from the superchargersonline.com forum!!!!!

BLOBYU

Sorry Azrael - didn't mean to offend you.. Will the extended warranty make you feel a little less hostile. Or how 'bout the lack of [multiple] blown motors. Perhaps we could look at that.

CARB is a mere portion of the entire equation.... that you're undoubtedly aware of. But it obviously speaks to the quality of the kit in that it's able to withstand the 80mph heat soak testing, ignition of precats properly, 185-degree intake charge maintenance, proper fuel/air mixture (which you should know would be damaging to the final results of ... emissions, right?). These are things that are important. And if you're considering spending a brick of change on a FI system - that's one of my questions. If you're in Cali - that and a warranty is very important. And right now... although I hate what is happening to ATI it sounds like my mind is being made up for me.

Sorry to have mis-typed. Perhaps this will clear up any doubts you might have. I've been studying these things just like Jeff (Zland). I should have said CARB & Warranty. My bad. Please do not take offense to my post.

BLOBYU

Sorry Azrael - didn't mean to offend you.. Will the extended warranty make you feel a little less hostile. Or how 'bout the lack of [multiple] blown motors. Perhaps we could look at that.

CARB is a mere portion of the entire equation.... that you're undoubtedly aware of. But it obviously speaks to the quality of the kit in that it's able to withstand the 80mph heat soak testing, ignition of precats properly, 185-degree intake charge maintenance, proper fuel/air mixture (which you should know would be damaging to the final results of ... emissions, right?).

Sorry to have mis-typed. Perhaps this will clear up any doubts you might have. I should have added the warranty to my statement. Don't take offense to my post.

fluidz

Can't give precise numbers, out of respect for Sport Z.

At a bad track, with stock tires, that car has run high 12's at 108. At a
good track in good conditions, it has run much better. I believe the
numbers at the Shootout were closer to the bad track.

350zdanny

I just love how our friend Ken here cannot provide 0% failure rate because "customers and dealers are human." Is ATI run completely by SkyNet or something?

I'm positive that ATI does not invest in Six Sigma Quality control, therefore they are not as interested in quality control from their side as Ken would have us believe. They just assume their kit works because, as we all know with FI, it is difficult to prove the real cause of the damage beyond a reasonable doubt.

Jim Jones

LMAO

daking350

#1...This dude souds sooooo*F*'n cocky to me..Like "WE ARE THE SUPERCHARGING GODS!!!HEAR ME SPEAK!!"

#2...I get a kick how he uses The guy running 9lbs with timing control and different injectors, as a frigging sucess case for ATI..HELLO!!!this guy he speaks of is doing that because he was the first one to BLOW his *F*'n engine using their setup....

#3 please PM me I will give him another case of a STOCK Z , with a PROFESSIONALLY installed ATI kit, PROFESSIONALLY dyno tuned with 4 other ATI kits in CT las month, at an A/F RATIO of 12:6-1...Who blew his engine the next day...What will ATI excuse be then..BAD GAS??And this dude does NOT and DID NOT beat his car I was with him when it blew...

#4...If I were an ATI dealer/installer I would be pretty pissed that ATI is blaming them for all this...I wonder if you sent your car to ATI to do the install and tune and blew it who they would blame then???I suppose they blamed everyone but the bank that financed the car to you...

BLOBYU

Good points Daking!

GaryK

daking-

Regarding the car tuned to an a/f ratio of 12.6, are you sure that is what they were really shooting for? That's awfully close to the edge, a little over it in my opinion. Anything over 12.5 is really pushing it, and when you figure in the other issues like high compression and n/a timing maps, I'm not surprised that it blew. This is what I've been talking about with regards to tuning...I'd personally rather give up some ponies and run a ratio in the low to mid 11's.

takes12no1z

DAKIN:
SO if 4 other kits were installed by the same people, and one out of the 5 blew up, then that would seem to me proof that there was a problem with that specific engine or install. I mean if it was a design problem, then wouldn't the others have a problem?

I know this is a lot to ask, but are you all familiar with the terms reason and logic? Try using them.

OTHERs:
I can only hope that one day some of you jackasses owns a business and gets attacked like this. The logic is pretty simple. 6 out of 100 failures means 94 successes? Let's say 10 people blew up thier engines? If there was a design issue, why wouldn't that be higher?

People who don't think logically always think they are being talked down to, when someone uses reason in a discussion. But sadly, your not being talked down to, you just FEEL that way, just like typical anti-business liberals.

daking350

Well I guess everyone who went to the CT XXX tuning day better get re-tuned from what your telling me...
The guys car put out 386whp with an A/F of 12:6.1 and thats similar to the way they tuned everyone elses car...Soooo I guess THEY are to blame to now as far as ATI is concearned...$hit, why not blame the guy who pumped your gas wile were at it...

BLOBYU

GUYS -
I think ATI is running the stock injectors at 165lbs. Stock is 65lbs. WOW - that's a lot for stock injectors to handle isn't it?? Just dump more fuel in and hope to stop the detonation? Does anyone know this as fact?

Dr Bonz

iTrader: (1)

It doesn't sound like that to me at all. Read what he said:



Sounds like he knew to me. It seems like ATI has several reasons to not include timing retard with their kit. I'm not saying that I agree with all of them but at least he is explaining (from a business standpoint) why they didn't do this.

Also, my bad on my post above. I actually thought it was Ken himself posting when in fact it was just a copy of an e-mail to another member.