zzzya

iTrader: (2)

With the problems that have come up there will definately be some suspicion, especially with a strong stance in favor of ATI right now. It simply has to do with the concerns everyone has right now about the engines that have been damaged due to the install of this kit. I agree with you that the ATI product will make the power and more than other kits, but on the 350Z right now there seems to be some issues with proper tuning. 350Z members are all chomping at the bit for a reliable, powerful FI option. The TTs are just now hitting the seen and other SC options are becomming available as well. Only time will tell which kits are the best option. I have opted to stay N/A for the time being to watch this unfold.

Black LS1 T/A

OK... someone who disagrees, but obviously knows how to ask intelligent questions or present intelligent objections. Good.

Actually, I'm trying to understand what's going on with the 350Z and Procharger thing. I DON'T know for myself which is superiror for the 350Z. THAT is why I asked why not do a head to head comparison with a like vehicle and like tuning. This should lay the performance question to rest.

One reason you MIGHT get more boost from it is ATI's superior knowledge of intercooling (or aftercooling, whatever trips your trigger). ATI took the lead in intercooled systems. Detonation is the enemy of the FI engine. More efficient intercooling, more boost is possible due to cooler intake temps.

Again, help me understand what is going on, and not some "troll this" or "shrill" that silliness. No "dozens type" comeback.

I know guys that are running ATI Procharger on their LS1 engine and bother to get it tuned correctly AND stay within the capabilities of their engine have no problems. The biggest issue I had with the ATI when it first came out for the LS1 was the FMU. It was OK for the base kit. But, guys like to tinker, and it was hard to get it to work adequate fuel mixture when you increase boost or had various "ohter than stock" configurations.

But, we REALIZED it took a different apporach to fueling if we were going to exceed the kit recommendations and did things like larger injectors and custom tuning. YES... if you exceed the capabilities of your engine even beyond the Procharger intercooling design, consideration must be given to retarding timing a bit, and sometimes richening the A/F.

I would like to see you guys have a pleasant boosted experience. I would like to see you guys have ALTERNATIVES for performance enhancements. Trashing vendors with a proven track record without real data or true analysis of engine failure can end up diminishing the pool of alternative power adders for your vehicle. And, as upset as you (or I) would be at blowing an engine, we must be fair and honest in our assessment as to the cause.

If I had broken my my stock, non-forged 350 LS1 engine cranking the boost up to 10 PSI, that would hav been my fault. How long did I REALLY expect it to withstand that type of pressure. I planned on an aluminum block 383 or an iron block 422, and risked it. But, if I were going to keep that engine, I would not have tried to exceed 450 RWHP or 7 PSI of boost on my LS1.

That's just common sense.

This is my point:

For you guys' engine, there is a threshold where the risk of grenading a stock engine exceeds the promise of power gains. Find it and advise your fellow 350Z'ers to adhere to that recommendation. It SOUNDS like ATI was trying to help you guys figure that out, and because they give you constraints working with stock engines, and you are not willing to accept a common sense limit, you up-chuck on their post. (Not you specifically... those who did the thrashing.)

I think if you do that, there will be little to no "engine broken" discussions here on My350Z.com.

I want 350Z's to stop backing down from me at the light, or avoiding lining up with me at the track. (Sorry, couldn't resist a little good-natured ribbing! ) Figure it out, and let someone who has run ATI successfully come around and rap with you about it without being branded a simple Troll.

Black LS1 T/A

WOW! Yet ANOTHER enlightend jab. Sheesh!

Black LS1 T/A

Fair enough. Please read my last relevant post. We must have posted at the same time.

You are probably smart to sit back and watch the dust settle. I did that.

I tell you, this is likely a tuning issue.

I did at least four things at the time I bought my ATI (besides get larger injectors and a more capable pump).

1. I bought a boost gauge

2. I bought a Fuel Pressure gauge

3. I had a custom tune

4. I bought a scanning tool so I could see what the heck was going on with my setup.

Many think they can exceed the limits of a basic setup and ignore doing these basic, yes basic, things. Believe it or not there ARE guys who think they can supercharge their vehicle without installing items 1 and 2.

Not doing Item 3 may work for a base kit, but deviate from the tested norm, and KABOOM!

And, if you are going to make changes, scanninng is a must. I consider it a must regardless.

Finally, I later bought a tool that allowed me to do my own tune (LS1-Edit). Do you guys have a similar product available? This took away the need for me to slow down mods or changes, and let me go to the dyno and optimize at will.

Another thing, dynoing is an important aspect of tuning. I was able to get nearly 30 more RWHP out of my setup by KNOWING how much more I could adjust the A/F safely, from my tuning on the road (knowing the A/F requirements of an FI LS1 engine).

Hope that helps.

GaryK

Black LS1 T/A-

I do think that if everybody approached forced induction upgrades with your attitude there would be a lot less finger pointing going on here. It does seem like a lot of people have jumped into it with the ATI kit, without a basic understanding of the risks involved, how to minimize the risks, and what to expect from a bolt on kit. Excellent points on the gauges, tuning, and scanning.

That said, there are a few motors that have failed after a Procharger installation. I don't know the full details on all of them, and I don't pretend to. There is one that I know of with a stock z and stock ATI kit that has continued to have problems with detonation in the upper rpms, even with it running safe a/f ratios. This is the only one that I have a feel for, and I think its an example of a car that absolutely needs timing control which is not included in the kit.

The others, I don't know about because the information is too incomplete. I do think people are trying to run too lean with this kit. In general, 12.5 a/f ratios are the highest you want to go on most forced induction setups running pump gas. Yet, there is at least one tuner that is tuning these cars at an average of 12.6:1, which I have to assume is true as it came from one of their customers. This is too lean for a car that has other things going on that may contribute to detonation. I personally think that anything over 12:1 is taking a big chance when using the stock kit. Everybody seems to be more worried about extracting every last bit of power out of the combination when it comes to tuning, but they should be more concerned with tuning to a safe condition that leaves some headroom. I'm personally running at 11.5:1 because I have a greater need to keep my engine together than to win a dyno shootout.

I guess my point is that even though the ATI kit is perceived as a bolt on, it really is not something you just bolt on and go. Any time you make a modification as substantial as this, you'd be wise to gain at least a basic understanding of what you're getting into. This will save you a lot of money and frustration in the long run. Is the kit perfect? No, to be safe you should at least run some type of timing control. I really expected to add timing control to the kit, before it even came out, and that was based on my own knowledge. My car can be driven around without timing control when everything is perfect, but even I don't want to take a chance so I'm being proactive in this situation by using a J&S Safeguard. And some gauges are a must IMHO as well. How do you even know if something is out of line when you can't see what the basic parameters are doing? This something that should always be considered part of the cost when adding forced induction.

toykilla

iTrader: (1)

ATI IS OFFICIALLY OFF MY LIST!!!!

zand02max

iTrader: (22)

Another one Blown, that makes 8.

https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....threadid=54202

I am not saying its either ATI's fault or the owner's fault, just pointing this out.

little_rod

I have not read all of this trend, and I don't plan on it. I know there are ways to make the ATI work fine on a Z engine. I am not real sure at all what I will do with my car, really undecided on what plan I have for my car. But I am sure about one thing, a procharger will never be on my car, PERIOD. And really that is the only decision I have made, take that anyway you want.

Black LS1 T/A

In our LS1 world, 12.5:1 would be considered too lean (too rich was typo) for FI. Most of us start our richest at peak torque and lean it at peak RPMs/RWHP.

An aggressive tune might be 11.5:1 at richest, 12.2:1 at leanest.

A safe tune might be 11.2:1 ramping to leanest at 11.7:1. Then, there are all sorts of variations in between. When guys put on headers, change MAF's (if you guys have such an animal), modify air intake... all those things affect A/F ratio.

Even a cold morning will normally find you running leaner than mid-day heat. It's just good stuff to know.

N74DV

hmmm.....

1. someone (ken) emails a forum member

2. then forum member posts the email in the thread.

3. other members respond tenaciously

4. forum member writes back new responses from someone (ken)


repeat steps 1-4

this is how the "Lor" thread was constructed.... is Ken really writing that crap??

GaryK

People, this guy speaks the truth!

(except for the first sentence, which I think was a typo...12.5 is too lean for FI )

Black LS1 T/A

Thanks, GaryK... that WAS a typo. I went back and corrected it.

elektrik_juggernaut

i was born at night.......but not last night

this is all very strange......why does an LS1 owner have any interest whatsoever in what this community thinks about ATI?

N4Spd

interest post by lsi guy... based on previous post from shiv and now this, I took another look at my setup.

1. was originally tuned for 12.5 (low rpm) to 11.5 (high rpm). Since it's much colder now, I've decided to move my sliders slightly upwards to run a little richer. Since the lsi guy says they've run reliably from 11.7 to 11.2, I'll probably leave it there.

2. shiv posted that the car seemed to be more consistent on the dyno with a little lower timing (maybe due to 91 CA gas) so I've changed my J&S to remove a little timing even off boost (but the majority is still taken out under boost). I know the new units also take some timing off based on rpm but I've decided to keep mine as is for the "KISS" principle. retard by boost + a small fixed retard. Sometimes too much complexity/variables can make things only more confusing. Also remember that the supercharger's boost is already related to rpm.

3. did another under the hood checkup and found the same bolt that loosened on Jesse's to be now loose on mine. Luckily it didn't come off so I tightened it. NOTE that I did put lock tight on it originally. No big deal, I think it's because of the direction that side of the pulley turns and vibration helps to loosen.

4. I also re-tightened the V belt for the 2nd time now because it stretched some more causing intermittent noise at startup. To avoid getting stranded, I put an old 3/8 socket wrench with 1/2,9/16,10mm,12mm,14mm sockets and a spare V belt into the car. Those sockets will let you take off the main cog belt in case something goes wrong with the kit and I need to drive back. It should also allow you to replace a broken V belt on the road. The belt is only $13 online.

anyone else make any recent changes?

jesseenglish

Because of my lower elevation here, I've actually richened mine up quite a bit also. However, I need to lean it out some. I'm currently tuned from 12.0:1 @ 3000 RPM ---->>> 10:1 @6000 RPM. I'll mess with it some more, once I get all my stuff/tools delivered by the movers.

Yeah, that bolt came loose on mine again too. Luckily I towed my Z from CO to AZ or I would've lost that bolt again. I'm planning on caking on the loctite this time and really torquing that bolt down once I get my tools. Right now, the only tool I have is a leatherman. Borrowed a ratchet/socket to tighten it temporarily.

ravaz

iTrader: (1)

Black LS1, check it. Late this week, or early next week, I'm going to be bringing my Z over to Jeff's shop (Carolina Auto Masters), I'm sure you heard of him since your from the area. Why don't you stop by and check it out. We are going to tune and see what we can get out of the ATI kit on my car, one more time. Invitation is open if you want to come and check it out, same goes for anyone from the area. PM me if your interested.

Edit: As a matter of fact, I know you know where it is, I see your name on his 500 club, cool

-Bill

Black LS1 T/A

My email is michael@mlbuie.com

If I'm in town, I'll drive to Durm and check it out.

Yeah, I pulled 549 RWHP / 757 RWTQ that day.

N4Spd, I have some interesting things to tell you about that bolt. But, my woman is calling my name, so I will give her some time, now.

I'll post again tomorrow.

hfm

iTrader: (1)

I've done a search and still am not certain about a couple things about air/fuel. Would one of you guys mind advising on two questions.

What would would be too lean for n/a? If 12.5 is the leanest for fi, how bad is 13.5 for n/a? I've seen some people as lean as ~14 and have read that 15 is theoretically ideal but that 12.5 is best for perfomance.

And, what is the easiest and cheapest way to enrichen the mixture? Can it be done with a Consult II on a dyno or does it require ECU swapout or some other fuel management device like a FMU or e-manage?

Thanks.

LSs1Power

Black T/A is one of the known and respected guys at LS1.com and LS1tech.com and he knows what he is talking about when it comes to BOOST. I agree with Black and Gary that 12.5 is very lean for a FI. Im sorry for the people who blew up their motors, but hey look at the bright side, it is an excuse to tell the wifey u need to fix the engine (8.5 C/R forged piston and all the goodies )

The way i see it, when u install any kind of power adder u are taking a chance and you have to do ur reaserch on ur engine before u go all the way. Every car has a limit if u are running stock internal or fuel system. Try to find out whats the limit of the stock fuel pump, injectors, crank, pistons, rods, etc... For example, a stock LS1 motor (pistons, rods, etc...) is at the limit when it reaches 480-530rwhp. To be on the safe side alot of LS1 owners are only running around 450-460rwhp with a ATI on a stock motor. Another example is that stock LS1 fuel system will only matches around 420-450rwhp.... Anything more u will need larger injectors, fuel pump, etc....

So far from what i have seen a stock 350 Z motor limit is around 370-380rwhp.... To be on the safe side try to run around 350-360rwhp. If u wanna push more boost u will have to fix the car to accept more boost such as addressing the fuel system, and timing, etc... Im not sure whats the size of the 350Z injectors, but if it was 370cc like the ZX 300 TT injector size then the limit is around 380-400rwhp. Im not sure about the 350 Z fuel pump thats why u need a fuel pressure gauge to tell u if u are short on fuel or not.
Also when tuning a car on the dyno if u see 12.5 A/F on the dyno that means the car will run at least 12.7-12.8 on the streets with the extra load unless the dyno that was used provides real load such Mustang Dyno. So when i see someone saying his car was tuned at 12.5 on the dyno and im assuming it was a dyno jet, or a dynapack. This leads me to believe he was running even leaner than that on the streets. Thats why when u tune a car with out a real load on the dyno u need to richen it .2 at the least so u will get the desired A/F on the street. Sorry for the long write up, but i was just sharing my thoughts

elektrik_juggernaut

hi LS1 guys.......i was wondering if you could clear something up for me.......i had heard that the Procharger for your LS1's had similar problems to the ones that 350z owners are now having........i had also heard that LS1 owners remedied the situation with the LS1edit......is there any truth to this?