jerryd87

iTrader: (4)

it amazes me how many people are making comments about the stillen being a waste of time and just blowing hot air. you all do know that the stillen running the small pulley is just as effecient on our engine as the m112 that comes stock on the cobra with a stock pulley right? whats that mean? for a given boost it will heat the air just as much as the m112 does on the cobra. obviously hellion dint have any problems with this heat and where able to make 1k to the rear wheels without meth. he will make less power because he is flowing less andy a smaller engine but the stillen running at 6 psi andy the gt35 running 14 im again going to say it will make at least 625 thats a super conservative number. based on the effeciency islands of these two items with a proper sized intercooler after the gt35 and meth he probably is going to run right at ambient give or take 10 degrees.

to those saying theres a reason it hasnt been done. yah it adds 4k+ to a build to unlock power most will never use. plus its extra work getting new piping done. not a waste of money just not practical for most owners, especially when alot are having traction issues at about 600 or less. its been proven on numerous systems andy it will work, alother better then you guys realise. with a m112 on the engine the open would never be able to run the turbo more then 6psi, even with a smaller pulley due to the higher airflow. the combined heat gained from both systems being in a poor effeciency islands would put a m62+gt35 combo right around the same power levels as a m112+gt35 combo. you couldnt take advantage of the second combo unless you where looking for 35+ psi and 1k+ hp to the wheels

str8dum1

iTrader: (11)

so you'd put a M62 on a 7liter car? 14psi of boost from the turbo essentially is doubling the displacement of the motor.

Thats the only concern, that the M62 does not have the physical ability to flow enough air without a sh8tton of backpressure.

Shizzmaster2k

iTrader: (7)

You are absolutely correct. I misspoke on what the requirements were to actually run this setup and both vortech and momentum have the same exact placement for their chargers in the engine bay. I better go back to the article and read it again...thoroughly. Lol!

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

Well, I personally thought about a twincharged setup, and wanted to do a big vortech combined with the jwt 5xx setup.
I'm willing to bet small turbos on a 3.5 will always create better response at 500hp levels than any supercharger setup we can come up with....
That's just how I see it. If you wanted to do your bolded statement, then yes a roots would be better, but the more realistic/practical setup in my mind is get your low end/midrange from small turbos, and extreme top end with a nice supercharger. Kind of backwards I know, but I bet it would work.
Although, it's totally not worth the effort/cost imho.

str8dum1

iTrader: (11)

you are just talking about a sequential setup. like i said, centrifugal supercharges are just turbos driven by belts, not exhaust.

it would make more sense to run that smaller turbo with a wastegate to feed the bigger turbo once its past its effciency

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

I thought that was twin charging just the same?

I think that would be easier to accomplish on our cars than a true sequential because
A) you could use stuff off the shelf (at least start with parts off the shelf)
B) I feel fabrication for a sequential setup on a vq in a Z would be a nightmare...

Tangential side note: the "streetfighter" z31 compound turbo looks like a damn beast...

jerryd87

iTrader: (4)

of course not but then again the m62 in that instance wouldnt even be on the flow map, i was simply pointing out the m62 with the 6 psi pulley is in the same effeciency island as the m112 with 8 psi pulley on the 4.6 cobras.

the thing people arnt realising is the air the supercharger is seeing is already going to be compressed and cooled, so yah it dosnt flow much BUT the thing is the air it "thinks" it is flowing is actually going to be a much greater volume due to the fact that it is already compressed. technically the cobra with the m112 and turbos running 1000 hp is outflowing what the supercharger can theoretically take, but since the air it see's is already compressed it really isnt flowing any more.

imagine the turbo can compress one cubic foot into half a cubic foot and the super charger can compress one cubic foot into .75 cubic feet. the turbo compresses two cubic feet into one cubic foot in this instance. when that air reachs the super charger the super charger is only compressing one cubic foot of air space, it pays no attention to how much air is actually in that space it simply compresses that one cubic foot into .75 cubic feet. so now you have two cubic feet of air taking up .75 cubic feet of space.

it more of a interaction of volume vs air density, the supercharger isnt flowing anymore air, it is flowing the exact same volume of air simply at a much much larger denisty. its not density that limits blowers and compressors its the space the air is taking, it dosnt care how dense the air is if it did a supercharged engine would make the same power at 0 ft elevation as it does at 10000 feet. hopefully this makes sense.

jerryd87

iTrader: (4)

oh yah btw a screw type setup will work just as well as a roots style on this type of setup, kinda like the kenne belle whipple chargers. both roots and whipple's are positive displacement they just compress different ways but im not sure anyone makes a whipple/screw type for the vq. google the differences if your wondering, im amazed no one uses a screw type since they are so much more effecient, on par with a turbo or sometimes more effecient.

Flo-ridaZ33

iTrader: (60)

Wipple's are really expensive.

jerryd87

iTrader: (4)

modding our cars is very expensive =P

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

Besides that, our engines don't make enough torque to make them worth it...

Some of those big whipples take more than 70hp to spin

jerryd87

iTrader: (4)

some of the big roots style take 500 to spin at max boost *shrug* dont seen anyone trying one of those though.

bigcloud

iTrader: (7)

I would try one pf the new vortech tvs models.models. the 2012you Audi s4 uses one and gets great results stock and tuned. That engine is also 0.5 liters smaller. It would be great to see one integrated on a VQ35.

TopgunZ

Thank you!

TopgunZ

Vortech tvs? I think you mean eaton. And yes the new tvs models are way more efficient and create 25% less heat. But to add say a 1320 model would take serious modding.

str8dum1

iTrader: (11)

Jerry's explanation is too simplistic. He's assuming there are no physical limitations on that tiny M62 blower.

sure the turbo is already compressing the air, but you are trying to shove more mass thru a blower thats already too small. He is assuming you can actually get more compression thru the blower, when that is most likely not going to be true. As soon as the blower cant compress that air anymore, its is just a huge restriction and heat source.

There is a finite mass of air that M62 can compress, regardless of the size of the turbo feeding it.

So go and build this so real #'s can actually get presented

Flo-ridaZ33

iTrader: (60)

Correct me if wrong but doesn't the twin screw compress air while a roots just draws it in? I believe the Vortech TVS is just a rebranded Lysocom(excuse the spelling).

jerryd87

iTrader: (4)

str8- the numerous examples out there already show that what im saying is true. I get what you saying , but going back to the mustang referance,since its modded more then some of the other examples. the m112 on that engine is in the same boat as the m62 on our engine. its physically impossible for it to flow enough for 1k rwhp and 30+ psi boost. yet it dose on the stock pulley, well completely stock engine outside the addition of a turbo kit. they are adding 12 psi of boost to a 400 hp engine(400 hp at the engine with 8 psi already on it.)

so in essence they are adding 1.5 times the boost and are somehow winding up triple the boost, which from what up say is impossible because of flow restriction. not only that's they are trippling the power.

just look at it this way the piping that sasha uses in his kit technically should be impossible to flow more then 500 hp(charger piping) but binder is well above that. its because once its compressed the volume aka the space the air takes up is the same but the density or weight is much greater. 1 cubic foot of feathers and 1 cubic foot of bricks, same volume definatly not the same density.

do it op peoples jaws will drop but build the engine first

flo, twin screw compresses between the screws, roots compresses between the rotars and outside walls of the.housing, thats why a top fuel blower requires 500 hp to spin at peak boost the clearances are retarded tight

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

fixed to be a bit more on point... lol

I think binder is getting more flow out of those charge pipes because the inter-coolers sasha* uses are really really good. Treadstone is good sh*t.

I agree with str8 on the limitations of a blower, eventually you are just going to be adding raw heat, and not compressing any more air. Besides that, I think a roots would not be good for higher psi on a twin charged setup... When you increase PSI you naturally increase the effective airspeed of the gas moving through the charge pipes (i think the ratio is somewhere around .24 psi for 100knots), so you kind of reduce the time the screws have to grab air and compress it (from my understanding). I'd guess a bigger turbo on lower psi would work better, but that can get really silly.

jerryd87

iTrader: (4)

the intercooler might be good but the fact the piping leading to the intercooler is too small to provide the airflow needed to hit that power(and according to precision that turbo isnt even close to maxxed yet even on our application.) is a testament to how air works when its compressed. eventually you will be just adding heat, when you are moving further out of the effeciency island on the supercharger with the higher boost pulley. if the op sticks with the 6 psi pulley he isnt going to hit the limit, with a good intercooler running about 12 lbs of boost on the turbo he would be rough estimate of 20 degrees warmer then ambient, again rough estimate, then with the super charger running in the range it would be on a 6 lb pulley it should add another 40-50 degrees after that rough estimate(its going to be higher ambient then just the supercharger but since it is warmer the intercooler is going to cool a little more total.) so overall he is going to be 60-70 degrees warmer rough estimate, if he is running meth on top of that, that should put him damn close ambient after the nozzle, while running about 23 lbs of boost from the two compounding. his peak power is going to be down a little bit due to the drain from the supercharger but he is going to have a much wider power band.

also if the op cranks up the turbo higher or goes to a bigger turbo and makes say 16 psi he will be running about a total of 33 psi of boost and make retarded power without a larger requirement on either and able to keep both systems in a peak effecinacy range limiting heat increases. i imagine since the air does have to flow through the turbo first the turbo will be the restriction far before the supercharger, gt40 or bigger would guarantee that dosnt happen though.

something people are forgetting is the loss of the supercharger, its not the supercharger is too small, its just the parasitic loss is greater then a turbo. on the stage 4 you can figure the supercharger is draining anywhere from 20-40 horsepower just to turn it, possibly a little higher as its different with each system. without the loss it would be right in line with some of the lower end turbos like turbonetics.

one final thought, since there a greater load on the engine down low from the supercharger the turbo should also spool slightly quicker.