GReddy vs. APS...the official education thread
GReddy vs. APS...the official education thread
At the suggestion of several people, I would like to start a discussion about the differences between the GReddy TT kit and the APS kit. There is a representative from APS that should be chiming in here, so this is a great chance to ask questions. The areas I would like to focus on are the following:
Physical differences: There are distinct engineering differences between these two kits. Can we get those out in the open and discuss the merits of each major difference as it applies not only to engineering practice, but to usability of the kit in a daily-driver application.
Performance What are the end-result differences between these two kits in a safe, streetable configuration. Does one allow safer operation at higher performance levels than the other?
Installation Nobody ever said installing a TT kit would be easy, but which of these kits is the most friendly when it comes time to take out the wrenches.
Maintenance: I'm imagining that the differences here will be small, but does one kit hold an advantage over the other as far as servicing, durability, etc?
Cost: Ok, I think we've all figured out that the APS kit is generally more expensive than the TT kit. Can we deduce from the above discussions that one is a better product than the other, and how does that relate to one of the big factors that plays into the decision to shell out 5+K dollars....cost.
Design Philosophy: What did each of these manufacturers have in mind when they designed their kits? The 1/4 mile, the track the street, or a mixture of the 3? Is one kit more aptly suited for a particular use than the other?
.
.
As a Z owner who will be saving pennies (lots of them) over the winter to put some form of Forced Induction on my car next Spring/Summer, I'd really like to be as educated as possible, so if you KNOW what you're talking about with these kits specifically (Superchargers are a whole other debate, so lets leave those out for now!
), speak up and give us your input.
I'd also like to keep the Turbonetics single turbo kit out of the discussion because a) there is another thread here discussing this product vs. twin turbo setups, and b) it's not relavant to rooting out which of these two kits specifically is better in the TT market.
If I've forgotten a TT kit maker out there, please bring 'em up. Might as well sort 'em all out at once!
Let the games begin!
Physical differences: There are distinct engineering differences between these two kits. Can we get those out in the open and discuss the merits of each major difference as it applies not only to engineering practice, but to usability of the kit in a daily-driver application.
Performance What are the end-result differences between these two kits in a safe, streetable configuration. Does one allow safer operation at higher performance levels than the other?
Installation Nobody ever said installing a TT kit would be easy, but which of these kits is the most friendly when it comes time to take out the wrenches.
Maintenance: I'm imagining that the differences here will be small, but does one kit hold an advantage over the other as far as servicing, durability, etc?
Cost: Ok, I think we've all figured out that the APS kit is generally more expensive than the TT kit. Can we deduce from the above discussions that one is a better product than the other, and how does that relate to one of the big factors that plays into the decision to shell out 5+K dollars....cost.
Design Philosophy: What did each of these manufacturers have in mind when they designed their kits? The 1/4 mile, the track the street, or a mixture of the 3? Is one kit more aptly suited for a particular use than the other?
.
.
As a Z owner who will be saving pennies (lots of them) over the winter to put some form of Forced Induction on my car next Spring/Summer, I'd really like to be as educated as possible, so if you KNOW what you're talking about with these kits specifically (Superchargers are a whole other debate, so lets leave those out for now!
), speak up and give us your input.I'd also like to keep the Turbonetics single turbo kit out of the discussion because a) there is another thread here discussing this product vs. twin turbo setups, and b) it's not relavant to rooting out which of these two kits specifically is better in the TT market.
If I've forgotten a TT kit maker out there, please bring 'em up. Might as well sort 'em all out at once!
Let the games begin!
Last edited by kcobean; Oct 4, 2004 at 08:49 PM.
Ok, here's a few other questions I'm sure other people researching F/I are wondering:
1. If I put a TT kit on my car, will it ever pass emissions again?
2. If not, how feasible is it to configure a TT car to pass emissions once every two years or so.
3. What is left of my warranty after I bolt on the horsepower?
4. Will my seat get wet every time my right foot hits the floor Ok, kidding on this one, but still would like to know how much different the car *feels* from stock once the boost machine is installed.
1. If I put a TT kit on my car, will it ever pass emissions again?
2. If not, how feasible is it to configure a TT car to pass emissions once every two years or so.
3. What is left of my warranty after I bolt on the horsepower?
4. Will my seat get wet every time my right foot hits the floor
Ok, kidding on this one, but still would like to know how much different the car *feels* from stock once the boost machine is installed.
I can address a few of these:
Physical differences: There are distinct engineering differences between these two kits. Can we get those out in the open and discuss the merits of each major difference as it applies not only to engineering practice, but to usability of the kit in a daily-driver application.
The biggest physical differnce lies in the turbos. The APS kit is using ball bearing turbos, which will theoretically spool faster and produce power sooner. To my knowledge, the manifolds are near identical. The IC is different, but serves the same purpose. There are other differences, but I will let someone with more APS knowledge concerning the engine management and IC configuration chime in.
1. If I put a TT kit on my car, will it ever pass emissions again?
If you leave your cats in and do not put a BOV on, you might pass emissions some day, but right now the Greddy and the APS are not CARB certified.
2. If not, how feasible is it to configure a TT car to pass emissions once every two years or so.
This is not feasible, but if you go to a shop that builds monster street cars, they can help you find a place to pass emissions. You will pay for this. At a bare minimum, you would need cats and removal of a BOV if you had one.
3. What is left of my warranty after I bolt on the horsepower?
The warranty will still exist if the dealer cannot prove the failure is a result of the TT. This is a gray area, so plan on the dealer denying all engine and drivetrain work. Nissan replaced my tranny after the TT, but that doesn't mean everyone will have the same luck.
4. Will my seat get wet every time my right foot hits the floor Ok, kidding on this one, but still would like to know how much different the car *feels* from stock once the boost machine is installed.
Go buy some Huggies. If you think a stock Z is even remotely fast, a TT Z will frighten you. Although your 1/4 mile will go from 14 seconds to 12.XX, the difference is unbelievable. If you have not had a chance to ride in one, then you should find someone to give you a ride before you buy it.
Also, there is a Power Enterprise TT kit out there that uses a different fuel management solution, different manifolds, etc. There are a few people on the board with them that can tell you the advantages. The number one advantage is the flashed ECU vs. piggyback e-Manage.
Physical differences: There are distinct engineering differences between these two kits. Can we get those out in the open and discuss the merits of each major difference as it applies not only to engineering practice, but to usability of the kit in a daily-driver application.
The biggest physical differnce lies in the turbos. The APS kit is using ball bearing turbos, which will theoretically spool faster and produce power sooner. To my knowledge, the manifolds are near identical. The IC is different, but serves the same purpose. There are other differences, but I will let someone with more APS knowledge concerning the engine management and IC configuration chime in.
1. If I put a TT kit on my car, will it ever pass emissions again?
If you leave your cats in and do not put a BOV on, you might pass emissions some day, but right now the Greddy and the APS are not CARB certified.
2. If not, how feasible is it to configure a TT car to pass emissions once every two years or so.
This is not feasible, but if you go to a shop that builds monster street cars, they can help you find a place to pass emissions. You will pay for this. At a bare minimum, you would need cats and removal of a BOV if you had one.
3. What is left of my warranty after I bolt on the horsepower?
The warranty will still exist if the dealer cannot prove the failure is a result of the TT. This is a gray area, so plan on the dealer denying all engine and drivetrain work. Nissan replaced my tranny after the TT, but that doesn't mean everyone will have the same luck.
4. Will my seat get wet every time my right foot hits the floor Ok, kidding on this one, but still would like to know how much different the car *feels* from stock once the boost machine is installed.
Go buy some Huggies. If you think a stock Z is even remotely fast, a TT Z will frighten you. Although your 1/4 mile will go from 14 seconds to 12.XX, the difference is unbelievable. If you have not had a chance to ride in one, then you should find someone to give you a ride before you buy it.
Also, there is a Power Enterprise TT kit out there that uses a different fuel management solution, different manifolds, etc. There are a few people on the board with them that can tell you the advantages. The number one advantage is the flashed ECU vs. piggyback e-Manage.
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From: austin
t32gzz covered the difference between the turbos, but left out one small factor. The APS turbos are water cooled, which means the turbos will run cooler and be less susceptible to oil coking, which is when excessive heat burns the oil and forms hardened deposits. This usually leads to severe turbo failure.
The other major differences in the kit are the intercooler and wastegate.
Intercooler:
The APS intercooler is still a front-mount, but rather than choose a large off-the-shelf intercooler like Greddy, APS chose to select a well-matched core size and weld on custom endtanks. The result is an FMIC with the following advantages:
- Doesn't require removal of the front bumper brace
- Equal length piping from each turbo to the intercooler, which means better pipe routing and no need for a collector
Wastegate:
GReddy uses an external wastegate, which are sometimes considered better, particularly for high boost. This conventional wisdom may not be accurate.
APS uses turbos that have internal wastegates, and Garrett and APS both assure us that the internal wastegate has good boost control and will not have problems with boost pressure spikes. As a side note, several Greddy TT owners have noticed boost spikes, even with the external wastegates. It seems that small boost spikes may be unavoidable, regardless of wastegate selection.
The power steering cooler also deserves some discussion. People who road race and autocross have already proven that the stock power steering cooler is inadequate. The Greddy kit replaces the stock cooler with a bent piece of hard tubing, and moves it out of the front bumper airflow, effectively reducing the cooling ability by a large degree. This is completely unacceptable. APS uses a bracket to relocate the stock cooler, but I haven't seen its placement. This is already better than the Greddy kit, but it probably still needs to be upgraded to support road racing or autocross.
Matt
The other major differences in the kit are the intercooler and wastegate.
Intercooler:
The APS intercooler is still a front-mount, but rather than choose a large off-the-shelf intercooler like Greddy, APS chose to select a well-matched core size and weld on custom endtanks. The result is an FMIC with the following advantages:
- Doesn't require removal of the front bumper brace
- Equal length piping from each turbo to the intercooler, which means better pipe routing and no need for a collector
Wastegate:
GReddy uses an external wastegate, which are sometimes considered better, particularly for high boost. This conventional wisdom may not be accurate.
APS uses turbos that have internal wastegates, and Garrett and APS both assure us that the internal wastegate has good boost control and will not have problems with boost pressure spikes. As a side note, several Greddy TT owners have noticed boost spikes, even with the external wastegates. It seems that small boost spikes may be unavoidable, regardless of wastegate selection.
The power steering cooler also deserves some discussion. People who road race and autocross have already proven that the stock power steering cooler is inadequate. The Greddy kit replaces the stock cooler with a bent piece of hard tubing, and moves it out of the front bumper airflow, effectively reducing the cooling ability by a large degree. This is completely unacceptable. APS uses a bracket to relocate the stock cooler, but I haven't seen its placement. This is already better than the Greddy kit, but it probably still needs to be upgraded to support road racing or autocross.
Matt
APS products usually run on the high side for comparable products on some things.
Having installed APS FMIC's, I will say you will probably not find a better FMIC than theirs.
I will withold my judgement on the kit until I see how well they matched the APS turbos.
While water cooling is nice, with todays oils and a moderately cautious driver, you aren't going to have coking failures, IMHO. The greatest advantage of the APS kit is the fact that the turbos are new Garrett technology which will (unless the turbos are way off on the match) blow other stuff out of the water on spool and efficiency. They really >must< be water cooled. The Ultimate Racing kit is also said to really be impressive compared to GReddy but it isn't available for a while.
The GReddy oil pan is poorly designed compared to APS/PE.
External gates allow for a better turbine design but in a situation like this, the exhaust manifold design and packaging concerns will make some manufacturers opt for internally gated.
Boost spikes can occur depending on many things including vac routing, equal length to both turbos, diameter of hose, etc.
Mark
www.Quantum-Racing.com
Having installed APS FMIC's, I will say you will probably not find a better FMIC than theirs.
I will withold my judgement on the kit until I see how well they matched the APS turbos.
While water cooling is nice, with todays oils and a moderately cautious driver, you aren't going to have coking failures, IMHO. The greatest advantage of the APS kit is the fact that the turbos are new Garrett technology which will (unless the turbos are way off on the match) blow other stuff out of the water on spool and efficiency. They really >must< be water cooled. The Ultimate Racing kit is also said to really be impressive compared to GReddy but it isn't available for a while.
The GReddy oil pan is poorly designed compared to APS/PE.
External gates allow for a better turbine design but in a situation like this, the exhaust manifold design and packaging concerns will make some manufacturers opt for internally gated.
Boost spikes can occur depending on many things including vac routing, equal length to both turbos, diameter of hose, etc.
Mark
www.Quantum-Racing.com
I've said publically that I feel the APS kit is the best quality kit out there....assuming the pre-production and marketing information is accurate. 
It really boils down to two choices. The Greddy kit is only $5300 in street prices, vs. $7500 for the APS kit. The Greddy kit is a good base to begin with, and then add future mods later. The only significant, and almost irreversable weakness of the Greddy kit, IMHO, is that required removal of the front bumper support.
The Greddy turbos, although conventional, are proven very reliable, and if you've driven a Greddy TT, you'll know that turbo lag is virtually non-existent. The Greddy turbos are also better matched if you intend to boost 18-20psi on a built motor....same with the intercooler.
These are some other things to consider.
One last point...until PE starts shipping cast manifolds, I would stear clear. One member on the board has cracked his manifolds twice in a short period of time. It is my understanding that they'll be switching the manfiolds to castings shortly.
It really boils down to two choices. The Greddy kit is only $5300 in street prices, vs. $7500 for the APS kit. The Greddy kit is a good base to begin with, and then add future mods later. The only significant, and almost irreversable weakness of the Greddy kit, IMHO, is that required removal of the front bumper support.
The Greddy turbos, although conventional, are proven very reliable, and if you've driven a Greddy TT, you'll know that turbo lag is virtually non-existent. The Greddy turbos are also better matched if you intend to boost 18-20psi on a built motor....same with the intercooler.
These are some other things to consider.
One last point...until PE starts shipping cast manifolds, I would stear clear. One member on the board has cracked his manifolds twice in a short period of time. It is my understanding that they'll be switching the manfiolds to castings shortly.
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From: Australia
Originally posted by kcobean
Ok, here's a few other questions I'm sure other people researching F/I are wondering:
1. If I put a TT kit on my car, will it ever pass emissions again?
2. If not, how feasible is it to configure a TT car to pass emissions once every two years or so.
3. What is left of my warranty after I bolt on the horsepower?
4. Will my seat get wet every time my right foot hits the floor Ok, kidding on this one, but still would like to know how much different the car *feels* from stock once the boost machine is installed.
Ok, here's a few other questions I'm sure other people researching F/I are wondering:
1. If I put a TT kit on my car, will it ever pass emissions again?
2. If not, how feasible is it to configure a TT car to pass emissions once every two years or so.
3. What is left of my warranty after I bolt on the horsepower?
4. Will my seat get wet every time my right foot hits the floor
Ok, kidding on this one, but still would like to know how much different the car *feels* from stock once the boost machine is installed.
This way APS will know well in advance of doing the actual emission test in Calfornia to obtain an CARB Exemption Order that APS has an excellent chance of meeting the required emission numbers.
From the emission data that we have collected to date from our own 5 gas analyser I'd say we have an excellent chance of gaining the CARB approval.
Thanks
Peter
Peter, that is great news. The emissions thing is almost certainly a show stopper for me if I can't get a TT kit that is smog legal. Can you answer a few questions for me about this?
1. What CATs are on the car you're expecting to pass CARB?
2. Someone mentioned earlier something about the BOV effecting the emissions, can you talk a little about the relationship of BOV to emissions?
1. What CATs are on the car you're expecting to pass CARB?
2. Someone mentioned earlier something about the BOV effecting the emissions, can you talk a little about the relationship of BOV to emissions?
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From: austin
Originally posted by kcobean
Peter, that is great news. The emissions thing is almost certainly a show stopper for me if I can't get a TT kit that is smog legal. Can you answer a few questions for me about this?
1. What CATs are on the car you're expecting to pass CARB?
2. Someone mentioned earlier something about the BOV effecting the emissions, can you talk a little about the relationship of BOV to emissions?
Peter, that is great news. The emissions thing is almost certainly a show stopper for me if I can't get a TT kit that is smog legal. Can you answer a few questions for me about this?
1. What CATs are on the car you're expecting to pass CARB?
2. Someone mentioned earlier something about the BOV effecting the emissions, can you talk a little about the relationship of BOV to emissions?
As far as the BOV goes, I've heard that CARB requires the BOV to be a "recirculating type" that vents the compressed air back into the intake tract. This seems extremely silly to me, since it's just uncontaminated compressed air sucked in via the filter, but CARB makes the rules, not me. I sort of benefit from it though, since I have no intention of venting a BOV to atmosphere. I'd rather keep my car as stealth as possible.
The Carb testing and any approvals REQUIRE that the stock cats be used. Federal law prohibits even replacing a cat with another cat...unless the original cat is proven defective.
Originally posted by gq_626
The Carb testing and any approvals REQUIRE that the stock cats be used. Federal law prohibits even replacing a cat with another cat...unless the original cat is proven defective.
The Carb testing and any approvals REQUIRE that the stock cats be used. Federal law prohibits even replacing a cat with another cat...unless the original cat is proven defective.
BOV and CARB
Originally posted by azrael
I believe they're running stock cats.
As far as the BOV goes, I've heard that CARB requires the BOV to be a "recirculating type" that vents the compressed air back into the intake tract. This seems extremely silly to me, since it's just uncontaminated compressed air sucked in via the filter, but CARB makes the rules, not me. I sort of benefit from it though, since I have no intention of venting a BOV to atmosphere. I'd rather keep my car as stealth as possible.
I believe they're running stock cats.
As far as the BOV goes, I've heard that CARB requires the BOV to be a "recirculating type" that vents the compressed air back into the intake tract. This seems extremely silly to me, since it's just uncontaminated compressed air sucked in via the filter, but CARB makes the rules, not me. I sort of benefit from it though, since I have no intention of venting a BOV to atmosphere. I'd rather keep my car as stealth as possible.
crankcase emmissions (since they vent back into the inlet post filter and pre-BOV). Crankcase emmisons are extremely nasty from an emissions pont of view and the board cna fixate upon them. So WRT to APS , if the board gripes , all they need to do is adjust the "dual stage" BOV for 100% recirculation to pass the test. Other simpler BOV designs can't be adjsuted to do this. So, it would be up to the user to re-adjust the BOV , for "off-road use" of course
.
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From: Australia
Re: GReddy vs. APS...the official education thread
Hi kcobean,
I sometimes feel uncomfortable comparing our product to others on a public forum because in my view, it’s discourteous to put another product down, however I will do my best to answer all of your questions.
1. Fuel system
A total fuel solution is part of the APS TT system. The fuel system is a return type with stable Constant Differential Pressure. Every nut, bolt and bracket including injectors, fuel pump, replacement plug-in injector loom (no cutting or splicing wires), plug-in fuel/timing boost control computer (again not cutting or splicing wires) is part and parcel of the fuel system solution.
See http://www.**************/350z/fuel/fuel.htm for further details.
2. Water Cooled dual Ball Bearing Turbochargers
The heart of the APS 350Z TT is a pair of the latest technology water cooled dual ball bearing turbochargers that employ custom APS specification aerodynamic and wastegate configurations. Again, a comprehensive list of components such as all the water and oil plumbing are included for straight forward bolt-on installation. The result is a bullet-proof turbocharger that has superior spool up characteristics and high durability at high boost pressures.
See http://www.**************/350z/turbo/turbo.htm for further details.
3. Cast High Volume Oil Pan
Excellent engine lubrication is paramount for high engine durability at high power levels. APS includes the cast, finned and internally baffled oil pan that increases the engine oil capacity by 1.25 quarts. The added oil volume in combination with the oil cooling provided by the oil pan cooling fins improve engine lubrication performance – hence engine durability.
See http://www.**************/350z/sump/sump.htm for further details.
4. Polished True Equal Length Stainless Steel Ducting
True equal length ducting is actually a very important aspect of the APS 350 Z TT system in order to achieve balanced engine operation, strong torque and smooth transition onto boost. Each turbocharger experiences the exact same effective route to each entry into the dual entry intercooler and results in each turbocharger working at the same rate as the other.
5. Bar & Plate Dual Entry Intercooler
I can’t stress strongly enough just how important efficient intercooling is on the TT Z – not only in terms of engine performance, but also on engine durability. The intercooler specification on the APS TT Z system is world’s best practice with both internal and external finning, vertical flow configuration for wide charge air spread with short passages. The result is an intercooler with very high heat reduction performance and ultra low restriction. The cast light weight alloy end tanks evenly distribute the charge air across the entire internal passages and air flow exists from the intercooler at the optimum position for routing to the inlet plenum.
See http://www.**************/350z/interco...ntercooler.htm for further details.
6. Dual Vent Blow Off Valve
The APS dual vent blow off valve included in the APS TT system is one that plumbs back into the inlet tract at small throttle openings – but at high boost pressures, vents both back into the inlet tract and externally in order to discharge the maximum volume of air. This has a great impact on throttle response in on/off throttle conditions such as gear changes (no backfiring or rich conditions) and greatly reduces the load on the turbocharger compressors when the throttle is lifted at high boost pressures.
See http://www.**************/350z/bov/blow.htm for further details.
I guess what I’m trying to say in the above is that we have spent a great deal of time and engineering effort to cover all the aspects of improving the Z’s engine performance – and deliver a complete and comprehensive system that addresses all of the issues involved in turbocharging the Z. At the end of the day, there are a lot of components that make up the APS TT system for the Z – each there for a reason. See http://www.**************/350z/parts/bom.htm for the list...
Whilst I would rather not speak in comparative terms, the base APS TT system delivers excellent drivability, strong and a wide spread of torque and high outright horsepower. There is also a great deal of headroom built into the system (I will talk about this later on) for those who wish even higher power and torque when used with a built engine. The huge APS intercooler delivers highly consistent engine performance and added engine safety by lowering charge air temperature significantly.
You’re right…. It just takes time to install. It’s the little things that make a big difference not only to the installation but also the ongoing enjoyment of the TT system. There are a great number of incidental items such as brackets, clamps, nuts and bolts that secure the variety of components such as hoses, fuel and water lines etc. etc. These take time, but worth while including because components are held in place securely and there for ever and a day.
Certainly the water cooled dual ball bearing turbochargers utilized in the APS TT system are the most robust found in Z TT systems. In addition, all of the above intercooler, fuel, BOV systems aid greatly in the overall durability of the TT Z engine. As of course does the finned high capacity and internally baffled oil pan included in the APS TT system. Sundry items such as all of the brackets etc all go together to aid long term durability by preventing premature failure through rubbing.
That’s a tough nut to crack because it depends on where you place highest value. Sure the list of components included in the APS TT system is huge (ie you’re getting “stuff” for the dollars), but where I see the greatest value is the completeness of the system and the fact that every angle has been addressed by APS. In addition, there are a large number of APS specialists throughout North America who will support their customers well into the future.
Really, at the end of the day it comes down to the thrill of driving a TT Z that not only scares you when you mash the peddle, but is smooth, responsive, economical and a delight to drive every day. That’s where I see high value.
In 2004 I don’t believe that there is any need to compromise (within reason) one aspect of engine performance in order to favour a particular application. It is certainly possible to build a TT Z that drives great on the street, returns high fuel economy, is responsive to the throttle etc. but still cuts an awesome ¼ mile time. In other words a TT system that does the lot. In broad terms, that’s exactly what the APS Intercooled TT system is designed to do.
In addition, APS also has delivered a good deal of head room for even higher engine power and torque for those who wish to run the APS TT with a built engine. The fuel system for example will support 600 horsepower and the turbochargers are specified with air flow to support 800 horsepower (400 hp each). If a customer wishes to run to 600 hp, there is no need to upgrade the base APS TT system. To take advantage of the 800 hp turbo capacity, a straight forward fuel system enhancement is all required (of course a built engine etc. to handle that power).
I trust that this answers your questions and feel free to ask if you require any further clarifications.
Peter
APS
I sometimes feel uncomfortable comparing our product to others on a public forum because in my view, it’s discourteous to put another product down, however I will do my best to answer all of your questions.
Originally posted by kcobean
Physical differences: There are distinct engineering differences between these two kits. Can we get those out in the open and discuss the merits of each major difference as it applies not only to engineering practice, but to usability of the kit in a daily-driver application.
Physical differences: There are distinct engineering differences between these two kits. Can we get those out in the open and discuss the merits of each major difference as it applies not only to engineering practice, but to usability of the kit in a daily-driver application.
A total fuel solution is part of the APS TT system. The fuel system is a return type with stable Constant Differential Pressure. Every nut, bolt and bracket including injectors, fuel pump, replacement plug-in injector loom (no cutting or splicing wires), plug-in fuel/timing boost control computer (again not cutting or splicing wires) is part and parcel of the fuel system solution.
See http://www.**************/350z/fuel/fuel.htm for further details.
2. Water Cooled dual Ball Bearing Turbochargers
The heart of the APS 350Z TT is a pair of the latest technology water cooled dual ball bearing turbochargers that employ custom APS specification aerodynamic and wastegate configurations. Again, a comprehensive list of components such as all the water and oil plumbing are included for straight forward bolt-on installation. The result is a bullet-proof turbocharger that has superior spool up characteristics and high durability at high boost pressures.
See http://www.**************/350z/turbo/turbo.htm for further details.
3. Cast High Volume Oil Pan
Excellent engine lubrication is paramount for high engine durability at high power levels. APS includes the cast, finned and internally baffled oil pan that increases the engine oil capacity by 1.25 quarts. The added oil volume in combination with the oil cooling provided by the oil pan cooling fins improve engine lubrication performance – hence engine durability.
See http://www.**************/350z/sump/sump.htm for further details.
4. Polished True Equal Length Stainless Steel Ducting
True equal length ducting is actually a very important aspect of the APS 350 Z TT system in order to achieve balanced engine operation, strong torque and smooth transition onto boost. Each turbocharger experiences the exact same effective route to each entry into the dual entry intercooler and results in each turbocharger working at the same rate as the other.
5. Bar & Plate Dual Entry Intercooler
I can’t stress strongly enough just how important efficient intercooling is on the TT Z – not only in terms of engine performance, but also on engine durability. The intercooler specification on the APS TT Z system is world’s best practice with both internal and external finning, vertical flow configuration for wide charge air spread with short passages. The result is an intercooler with very high heat reduction performance and ultra low restriction. The cast light weight alloy end tanks evenly distribute the charge air across the entire internal passages and air flow exists from the intercooler at the optimum position for routing to the inlet plenum.
See http://www.**************/350z/interco...ntercooler.htm for further details.
6. Dual Vent Blow Off Valve
The APS dual vent blow off valve included in the APS TT system is one that plumbs back into the inlet tract at small throttle openings – but at high boost pressures, vents both back into the inlet tract and externally in order to discharge the maximum volume of air. This has a great impact on throttle response in on/off throttle conditions such as gear changes (no backfiring or rich conditions) and greatly reduces the load on the turbocharger compressors when the throttle is lifted at high boost pressures.
See http://www.**************/350z/bov/blow.htm for further details.
I guess what I’m trying to say in the above is that we have spent a great deal of time and engineering effort to cover all the aspects of improving the Z’s engine performance – and deliver a complete and comprehensive system that addresses all of the issues involved in turbocharging the Z. At the end of the day, there are a lot of components that make up the APS TT system for the Z – each there for a reason. See http://www.**************/350z/parts/bom.htm for the list...
Performance What are the end-result differences between these two kits in a safe, streetable configuration. Does one allow safer operation at higher performance levels than the other?
Installation Nobody ever said installing a TT kit would be easy, but which of these kits is the most friendly when it comes time to take out the wrenches.
Maintenance: I'm imagining that the differences here will be small, but does one kit hold an advantage over the other as far as servicing, durability, etc?
Cost: Ok, I think we've all figured out that the APS kit is generally more expensive than the TT kit. Can we deduce from the above discussions that one is a better product than the other, and how does that relate to one of the big factors that plays into the decision to shell out 5+K dollars....cost.
Really, at the end of the day it comes down to the thrill of driving a TT Z that not only scares you when you mash the peddle, but is smooth, responsive, economical and a delight to drive every day. That’s where I see high value.
Design Philosophy: What did each of these manufacturers have in mind when they designed their kits? The 1/4 mile, the track the street, or a mixture of the 3? Is one kit more aptly suited for a particular use than the other?
In addition, APS also has delivered a good deal of head room for even higher engine power and torque for those who wish to run the APS TT with a built engine. The fuel system for example will support 600 horsepower and the turbochargers are specified with air flow to support 800 horsepower (400 hp each). If a customer wishes to run to 600 hp, there is no need to upgrade the base APS TT system. To take advantage of the 800 hp turbo capacity, a straight forward fuel system enhancement is all required (of course a built engine etc. to handle that power).
I trust that this answers your questions and feel free to ask if you require any further clarifications.
Peter
APS
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 243
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From: Orange County
Turbo timer required/necessary?
My understanding is that turbo timer allows the "snail(s)" to slow and cool down to prevent potential coking and lacquering issues even when high quality mineral based oil is employed. In other words, turbo timers prolong the life of a turbocharger.
The Garrett ball bearing turbo generates less heat (less friction) compared to other design. This combined with water cooled design bolster the claim that the bearing temperature constantly operates under the coking threshold. As such, the graph below implies that turbo timer isn't necessary at all. Assuming proper oil is used, coking will not be an issue even after immediate engine shutdown. Also, the last paragraph of the page where the Figure is linked (Turbo article ) alluded to the fact that the data was obtained "under high load", which could mean during track, drag racing, or towing session.
Unless there is another purpose which a turbo timer serves that I'm not aware about, its associated extra cost is not justified.
On the other hand, is it really true that non-water-cooled turbocharger constantly exceeds the coking threshold under heavy load even with one of the best available oil? This implies that the new Garrett turbo will outlive the rest of the non-water-cooled counterparts.
Can someone straighten my thoughts here a bit because this combined w/ other people's perception on this thread and alluring articles from APS, leads me to ponder on the idea of getting a night job w/ one sole purpose in mind. vrrrrmmmm Ayyy Peee Sssshhh
The Garrett ball bearing turbo generates less heat (less friction) compared to other design. This combined with water cooled design bolster the claim that the bearing temperature constantly operates under the coking threshold. As such, the graph below implies that turbo timer isn't necessary at all. Assuming proper oil is used, coking will not be an issue even after immediate engine shutdown. Also, the last paragraph of the page where the Figure is linked (Turbo article ) alluded to the fact that the data was obtained "under high load", which could mean during track, drag racing, or towing session.
Unless there is another purpose which a turbo timer serves that I'm not aware about, its associated extra cost is not justified.
On the other hand, is it really true that non-water-cooled turbocharger constantly exceeds the coking threshold under heavy load even with one of the best available oil? This implies that the new Garrett turbo will outlive the rest of the non-water-cooled counterparts.
Can someone straighten my thoughts here a bit because this combined w/ other people's perception on this thread and alluring articles from APS, leads me to ponder on the idea of getting a night job w/ one sole purpose in mind. vrrrrmmmm Ayyy Peee Sssshhh
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 326
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From: Dallas, Tx
That graph does not seem correct. I have put many miles on both water cooled and non on similar cars for many miles (100k+), and can't tell a difference. The water does not cool it off as much as that graph shows. The most important thing to ensure a long turbo life is to let it cool down after running it hard.
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,289
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From: Australia
Originally posted by Firehawk
The water does not cool it off as much as that graph shows.
The water does not cool it off as much as that graph shows.
Peter
APS