I'd like to see ONE of you guys actually lay your car up to make your own plenum spacer THEN spend the time/money it takes to properly test it with expensive tools like a dyno and flowbench. You'd see that your total $ spent would cost WAY more than they are asking for a finished tested product.

You can also think in terms of hp per dollar...did your $800 catback make this much power? Nope.

Sometimes it seems like you can never win...what if they'd taken the cheap road for materials...a bet a lot of forum members would ***** and moan that it wasn't good enough for them even though it would be cheaper.

As for the Jew comment, that's really rude and uncalled for. Perhaps someone should start a thread about what screaminz is acting like. My message to screaminz - keep your ******** racist comments to yourself. Nobody, including a Jew like myself, wants to hear it.

 

Can someone put there money where there mouth is and buy one of these and start coping it?

 

Something that's being lost here (not just by jrotaryb) is that we're not buying HP. People are (or should be) buying materials and labor. Pound for pound, the spacer should cost $25 when compared to a $800 exhaust. A TT or SC should cost $20,000 if comparing HP gained, right?

How much R&D went into it? $20K, $40K? Plan on selling 1000 units? That adds $20 - $40 per unit. How much for raw materials - $50? How much for labor - $50? $100?

I suspect the problem that a lot of people have with the price is that it is seen as being based on the HP it gains, not on its perceived worth. What if we were talking about a simple add-on like the Tornado? Say it added 10 - 20 HP and was selling for $250. I think you'd see a lot more griping about the price of it for the same reason. The fact that there's more discussion in this thread about the price than the item itself confirms that it's not "priced to sell" from the potential buyers' point of view.

In the end, the free market system will win out. If it's got a high price and the independent dyno's don't prove it's really worth it, they won't sell. I still believe that something so simple will be readily cloned and become widely available for a low price - IF it makes some measurable power gains.

I'm willing to wait 6 mo to a year to see what happens. I got my Z a year ago and in that time I've seen a lot of products come onto the market. And initially, they looked great but after they've been out for a while and some of the problems came to light and the realization that they didn't produce the gains claimed, my desire to have a particular product withered away. I've learned to become patient and not rush out and buy something because it's the "next great thing".

 

If this spacer actually netted these gains I would be more than happy to fork over the $300. But, I find the dyno lacks the credibility needed to convince me and other members. First of all the first pull nets a measly 230HP (on a cold motor my guess), then the ECU is "broken in" and the car goes up to 245 hp (heated to normal range). Also, remember the test car had a popcharger but never mentioned if he reset his ecu after the install of this. Some of these gains could simply have been from a reset ecu.

Secondly, this spacer idea seems like putting a band-aid on a severe problem. The stock plenum just is not efficient, pure and simple (or else ppl whould not be touching it). Even with this spacer you retain the characteristic slope that something like a replacement plenum (Crawford or Kinetix) rectifys.

Finally, as for pricing. Everything seems to have a "Z Markup" these days... I highly doubt there is a substantial need for that audacious of a price. Also, you haveta look at joe consumer... He is paying $300 for a piece of metal that will lift up his plenum, the percieved value is just not there.

I know people will probably just call me a moron or throw a racial slur at me but TAKE EVERYTHING WITH A GRAIN OF SALT. Look at who the "revealer" of this information and ask yourself if this is truly feasible before you jump to the defense of a product you have not seen independently tested multiple times...

 

Check the GROUP BUY thread everyone! Killer prices!

https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....postid=1259659

 

First off your prices are WAY off, and second your comments about the plenum design are complete speculation with no proof anywhere that shows just raising the stock plenum will not provide the same gains. Just because Crawford went to great lengths to redesign the plenum upper does not mean it was worth the trouble. So far the dynos (also check the dynos from Hydrazine's spacer, very similar results) indicate otherwise...

 

Nobody said you had to buy it immediately...or at all! I just wish the complaining about price would stop - if you don't want to spend that much, don't buy it! Those group buy prices present the potential for a significant discount...they are giving you all the opportunity to pay less if you just organize a bit.

Do any of you guys realize what markup is on consumer products? I think a company that makes a product that performs as advertised is entitled to make a profit...they did all the work for you! How many of you guys have PS2's? You think they cost anywhere NEAR $300 to make? Maybe more like $50 each and you still all bought them the week they came out.

It's just the whining that gets on my nerves...you dont want the product, don't but it! This isn't a flea market where you negotiate price on a pair of 10 year old pants.

 

Seriously, I'm always trying to find cheap stuff...but in this case.

Price seems very reasonable for the amount of horses it is providing. Only if this spacer can show a consistant proven gain...to other test cars

The way I see it is we're not only purchasing what the material is made of but the IDEA/DATA/SOLUTION of a better increase in horsepower.

How much is the kNOWLEDGE worth to you? If I were to purchase this product, I would be purchasing more then the product but the products acheivement of finding a solution to better gains.

If I were purchasing simply on the matter of it's just a spacer...then I wouldn't buy it at this price.

Just like a dieting program. WORTH/VALUE..."value is value percieved" Is $500 a month worth 15lbs of weightloss? (I dont' know the actual price of a weightloss program)

-Yes, if one wants to really lose weight.
-No, you already know how to lose weight.

 

the whole PS2 thing that you are attempting to compare this 2 doesnt really work... cause percentage wise, this product is priced EXTREMELY higher than the ps2. i mean lets just say that the playstation costs 50 bucks 2 make. ALOT more research went into it rite? its something that ONLY 1 company can make rite? everyone can make different systems but only sony can make the playstation. another thing, 50 bucks to 300 is only 6 folds. we are saying around 25 dollars to make the spacer and the price is at 250, thats 10 folds... AND thats not including shipping. Another thing that i just remembered. this product WILL be replicated, its almost a guarantee. how much is it going to be worth when you try to sell it? I see crawford plenums holding thier value pretty good... (im always lookin for a cheap one and cant really find one...) i honestly doubt in 6 months this will even be worth half of what you bought it for. but thats all okay. ill wait for that cheap replica or for the price to drop.

 

Who cares guys. If you want to take the "crawford has a 29$ spacer har har" stance, then fine. If you want a badass full plenum from crawford or kinetix then by all means buy away. Do that though and dont bother wasting everyone's time by badmouthing other products for whatever reason. If you like this spacer then get it. If you have a problem with the pricing though, about the last thing thats going to get results is going and complaining about it on the internet. If the price in the end turns out to be an actual problem that needs to be addressed then a lack of sales will take care of it, not worthless posts on this forum.

 

on the contrar....the more voices aam hears that this product is way overpriced the better. there are always those who have to have it now. me on the other hand, i have learned to be patient in the aftermarket game and i am sure in time someone will have this same product for way cheaper. the only thing this aam price is based on is the hp...thats the bottom line imo

and i agree with most here...if you want to pay that much go for it...if not then don't....simple concept

however, everyone has a right to voice their opinion on the matter and most seem to think this is priced too high

 

Group buy pricing looks attractive.

 

alot of you guys are right on the money with your comments, and alot of you guys obviously have alot to learn.

 

You try getting a piece of this material for $25.00 - we'll see how well you do. Some of you guys can REALLY whine, I'd be afraid to find out what your gf's are like.

 

At some point we seemed to have lost sight of the purpose for these forums...to exchange ideas and information to improve the performance of the cars that we all love to drive. When and why does it become personal? I saw a previous post that hit the nail on the head....buy the spacer if you prefer it, buy the plenum if you prefer it; but just because someone else decided to go a different direction than you doesn't make them wrong, or a moron, or anything else. It just means they have a different opinion. How boring would this all be if we shared the exact same opinion. Those forums exist as well...they're called cults.

 

z1 i know you have been in the game for a while and i respect your expertise so i am not trying to say i know anything about how sales works. now from a buyers only stand point it just seems to me like they are playing off of the hp gains thus justifying their pricing.

the gasket pricing may or may not include what it cost them to produce with r&d, manufacturing and marketing so i don't really know about that. i just look at the end product as a consumer and think thats a lot of money for what seems to be a small amount of material.

i don't blame them for asking so much if indeed thats the actual power gain...maybe its worth it, and maybe not...i will wait and see what shakes out. i'm not whining, just questioning or trying to understand the cost of the product.

 

This isn't meant to attack you personally ReavTek...it's a blanket statement really....

Generally everything for the Z is so much more expensive because there are fewer prospective buyers. Face it, you have purchased a car that has only been around for 3 years. On top of that, they are only making 30,000'ish a year. So over 3 years there are 90,000 prospecitve buyers. Besides aftermarket parts being an extremly niche business ontop of that! Plus if the parts are then being imported its more $$ on top of that.

Now comare that to Civic or Integra parts. There are possibly 90,000 Civic or Integra buyers in 1 year alone (this is ballpark - buy you get the point). Z markup happens because there are fewer buyers...which makes parts more expensive to the buyer in order to provide a profit for the vendor.

With that said, I went and checked and I think they forgot to put the complimentry pair of panties in my Z...this thread is ridiculous.

Very nice product!! And I do believe it will work. I am anxious to see which see more gains. Retaining the angle....or not. Good arguements for both. Dyno away!

 

That might be how you are perceiving it, but having had my own similar langes cut in the past for custom turbo manifolds, etc, I KNOW what these coast to make. The price might seem expensive for a seeminly small piece, but it's not out of the range what one could reasonably expect to pay for such a part built in the US in small quantities.

There are examples in this in life all over the place.

in any event, hopefully this thread can die

 

Bump!!

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Z1 Performance
yeah it's about volume....sure...see how long that business model nets you a succesful business.

Uh... How do you think COSTCO got so Big? Wallmart?

Im in the automotive industry myself, and I will tell you we move containers of products every week. We don't make a lot of profit but we sell thousands not hundreds. We have a 30,000sqft facility for just warehousing, belive me. VOLUME will beat anything not price. I can't comment on the people that we make stuff for but I can assure you that you would be surprised on the strategies people have. Most companies have 2 types of business the HIGH END line and THE LOW end line. Take for example Volk Racing. Volk Racing sell's their wells and are catered for the HIGH END people. Than you have companies like Motegi who cater more for the average consumer (cheaper in price). You would be surpised how many companies are linked together, it is not my business to be posting here that X company and C company are the SAME OWNER. For example, AND THIS IS NOT TRUE, just making and example... The Owner of APC is the owner of Blitz. This is something that in the industry you learn that THE HIGH END line is very hard to maintain afloat. You need to grab more market share. Bill Gates did the same with IBM, this way you can own the whole market the guys who pay top dollar for the product and the people that pay chump change. And believe me, their are more LOW end people than High end people. This is where VOLUME takes an effect, and its a very smart strategy because without volume your company really can't survive. Just compare how many Low end cars to High end cars you see in the streets? What does that tell you, their is more of a bigger market on lower end (honda/acura) etc.. Now i know the Z is really not on the lower end. And its understanable you want to maximize your profits. Hell, the average Acura/Honda consumer wouldn't pay but $250.00 for a Carbon Fiber hood. Yet the Average Z owner would pay in excess of $400.00+. And of course its because its a different caliber of car. Like a Ferrari cat-back exhaust no cheaper than 5K. But some stuff just is ridiculous in price.

In business, it's margin AND volume. The two do not operate in their own respective vacuums. Look how many "online performance shops" opened and closed last year alone.

Do you know why they opened and closed? Because over 90% of these "shops" were home based business that were ran by un educated teens who thought they knew everything about business. Got a resale license and started buying stuff, than they told their friends that they can hook them up etc... But they know nothing about business, because if they did they wouldn't be out of business. I myself started on the Internet to working at home through my garage, I am only 24 and can tell you I have learned a lot! And mostly from succesful companies that have taught me the ways, its like they say you hang out with scum you will become a scum, you hang out with successful people you will in turn become succesfull.

"Volume" might work for Wal Mart, but its much harder to net in this business - harder still when you talking a low production car like a Z, and lower still with a specialized product like this. How many do you think they will sell? Maybe 200? How many Crawford plenums have been sold? I venture to say a lot less than 500. Now, you go to a manufacturing plant in Taiwan or China (where everything being mass produced on a budget is being done nowadays) and put an order in for 1000 or 10000, then yes, the price would drop exponentially. Given the limited market for this though, and given the known costs for making such a part (I've already done my own once), the price is inline with what it would take.

I will disagree with you 100% here. I do manufacturing myself again, and if anybody wants anything manufactured we can do it. I can safely say I can get this piece manufactured over seas in china for a limited quantity of 50pcs at less than $50.00 I do this for a living, I make parts for people not only in automotive but other inventions. I also have manufacturing capabilities here in the US and can also safely quote a price of under $50.00 here in the states. Sorry, but CHINA is coming in strong and you really dont need to do a HEFTY buy to get the low price anymore. This is why 80% of the products YOU buy are being made in CHINA and TAIWAN Their is nothing wrong with that if you have quality control.

All this "I can do it cheaper" talk is amusing....go do it! You guys who think it's so overpriced, you wear shoes right? And jeans? You sitting home on the weekends and knitting that stuff yourself? It's just a shoe right...some rubber soles and leather...how hard could it be to make? A Shirt....dude's its and cotton..thread.what could be easier? Seriously......

Dude don't compare manual labor with machinery. How long will it take me to make a shirt? how long will it make to make shoes, jeans? How long will it take me to make that piece of metal? about 1 minute tops. Once it setup in producing, you pop them out ASAP.

Internet MBA's aside, let them sell what they are selling.

That Hondata piece is very nice and trick, but its a gasket, not aluminum...might want to check the price of raw materials before you jump to conclusions as to what it "should" be sold for.

No need to comment on that see above post, heck its not like its made of titanium?

Your Injen example is better, though given (to my knowledge) everything they make is done in China, it's still a different story. These guys invested the money in their own equipment, have their own shop, spent their time and money figuring out a setup they felt comfortable selling and are now offering it.

At what point are moderators going to step in and do something to stop the insults people like to fling around....it's getting old, and frankly very annoying. The lact of tact on this board is severly distasteful. And a perfect example is screaminz's post - guess now we have to resort to distasteful language in order to make a point? Thankfully enough people are normal and reported it.

Im sorry you take this as an insult, you should take it more like a learning curve. Customers speak out and you should listen to them from time to time. If you have a series of people telling you. "Oh its this or its that" maybe you should listen to them from time to time. Again please don't give me this "R&D" because I think that's what pisses people off more. So I take a stock gasket from dealership get it manufactured 3/4 thicker and that's it. You guys act like you made the whole piece, so big deal its slanted that's just programing work? So much for R&D right? How long did it take to come out with this? Ive seen rims that are 18" that sell for less than $150.00 wholesale Do you know how long it takes to make a rim and HOW MUCH MORE METAL AND TOOLING IS INVOLVED? Think about it?

Good Luck with Your endeavors.