FLY BY Z

I think that expecting a certain time for a given mod is impossible to predict so it can be considered "ricer math" in a way. However, getting a certain time for a given mod is just reality. I don't think that people should install parts so they can run this time or that time, I think people should mod to their budget or what their finances allow and whatever it runs, it runs.

12SecZ

How about defining a goal then modding to reach that goal? If your goal is just looks then do appearance mods. If you want sounds then research audio mods.

If your goal is 1/4 mile times as a daily driver then it's well knowna torque converter will give you at least .5

So you buy that mod. If you can't afford it then your "goal" should just be to make the monthly payment. The car even in stock form is an awesome car.

1. Buy the car.
2. Define your goal for the car
3. research what works to obtain your goal (in this thread the Crawford)
4. Buy the Mods
5. Install them.

Perfect example. If your goal is the 1/4 you may find that your 300 bucks is better spent on pulleys than a CAI.

VandyZ

iTrader: (2)

Kind of reminds me of shoping for cars based on your desired monthly payment! Never a good thing to do!

hfm

iTrader: (1)

To answer some of your questions:

1. Dont you think we would be called out by now (besides people like you who dont have it).

Yep. Tell you what, there probably are some gains. However, I can cite one person I know who has it who found no butt dyno gain and dyno results that don't seem to reflect 9 hp gain. The point is, this thread asked if there was any hard evidence. I haven't seen any non-Crawford dynos that would answer this question in the affirmative.

2. Why does Strictly Z have one and sell them?

They're in business.

3. Why does JWT have one?

To compare to one they're developing.

4. Why does Technosquare want to help us with tuning?

They need the information for their ECU.

5. Why have we sold this mod to drivers of Z's, G's, and FX's. Why do we have repeat customers? Why do we have the same customers buying additional plenums for their other VQ35 vehicles?

People like your product and like word of mouth recommendation.

VandyZ, I'm not in anyway calling you or anyone at Crawford a liar.

However, like any business, Crawford is entitled to engage in "puffery" to place a product in the light most favorable and in a way designed to sell. Therefore, Crawford can, a probably did do multiple dyno runs. Hence the $1,500 bill. I would bet good money that the results that are posted are the best runs against stock average or worst runs to maximize horsepower gains.

For all we know, 9 hp was the best gain but you may have had runs with no gains or possibly even loss in power. But, those sheets will never be posted. There is nothing wrong with this. Every manufacturer does it. The problem is, it doesn't give us accurate information because Crawford as a Manufacturer must be biased. How many units would you sell if you posted bad dyno runs?

If there were a few sample dyno runs of stock and after installation by some of your customers, that would be the best evidence of gains.

PhoenixINX

Actually, if you want to know... my FIRST PULL with the plenum yielded 9hp peak 17 redline. This was immediately AFTER my baseline... interesting eh?

Guess what? So did every run thereafter. I paid for my dyno runs independantly, and shared these with Doug for more "proof"... I'm not employed by him - nor does he sponsor me.

Sincerely though HFM - I love having a devil's advocate on the board. Creates great conversation - More importantly drives more business.

Btw - If you must know... JWT isn't developing one. Mind you Jim Wolfe and Doug Stewart are good friends. TS has been partnering with Crawford to develop a packaged solution - "Ease for the community". Why does Strictly sell the plenum? Because Doug wanted to make it easily and quicker to get to you, the west coast customers. Yuichi and Doug talk on a daily basis...

Please lets continue this charade... I've been needing fresh material to talk about.

VandyZ

iTrader: (2)

Ok for the record we compare the best stock dyno to the best mod dyno. If we compared the worst stock dyno to the best mod dyno then my personal peak gain would have been 16 and the redline gain would have been 25. Plus we looked at more than just one car.


How bout this: I haven't seen any non-Crawford dynos that would prove your speculation either. All I see are over 100 satisfied customers.

It seems to me that we are proven, and your speculation is without merit and until you can produce a majority (not just one or two accounts) ruling that our stuff sucks, we will still a stronger voice in this matter.

On a side note, JWT has told us many times they are not working on a plenum and dont have plans to. Doug talks to Jim on a monthly (sometimes weekly) basis.

VandyZ

iTrader: (2)

yes please, it seems as though i have cought the evil bug!

hfm

iTrader: (1)

Okay. We have one person who has 9 hp gain. Anyone else?

Last time I spoke with Jim, I got the impression they were. But, I could of course, be mistaken. Doug speaks with Jim and Jim says no development, I believe you.

As for charades, why are you being defensive and sarcastic? Heck, just get more people to post their dynos and you will have your proof. Until then, whoever reads this thread can make up their own minds.

VandyZ

iTrader: (2)

Except for you, your mind was made up a long time ago when you decided our piece was trash. The same has come out of your mouth ever since.

Don’t knock it till you try it!

FLY BY Z

I totally agree. I have always said that you should define your goals. That can be found in my previous posts. I am just saying that there is more than one way to skin a cat and you should not buy a single part with the single thought that you are buying it for 3 tenths or whatever. Any given part is worth much more than a few tenths in the quarter. Thats all. If you want to pick up .5 in the 1/4, a torque converter isn't the only option. If it has disadvantages that you don't like, you may want to choose another path. There is more than one path to 3 tenths. That is what I am saying.

FLY BY Z

Not quite, bud.

hfm

iTrader: (1)

I'd love to see you link anywhere I've called your piece "trash."

VandyZ

iTrader: (2)

Well it did me!

You: I want navigation
Dealer: Well that will make you payment go up X dollars

like

You: I want to go 13.0 in the 1/4
Tuner: Well you are going to only need a Crawford Plenum for $450 (Just kidding on the "only" part guys)

protocav

iTrader: (3)

i certainly didn't mean to start a pissing contest between everyone, but it seems that whichever forum you are on...it always happens.

all i was really looking for were some customer dyno's.

i certainly trust crawford's business ethics, and have no reason to think that they would botch their results, but it seems that all companies eggagerate their numbers a bit. i have done some magic with dyno sheets on photoshop in the past, and it is virtually impossible to tell what is real or not anymore.

thank you for all of the opinions from everyone.

bk_r0x

You guys misunderstood what I was trying to say. I'm not saying that "real world testing" is ricer math, I'm saying attaching a given quarter mile time reduction to a specific part as part of an advertising or testimonial is a bad way to go, because it is going to differ from car to car (even with the same exact configuration) and it is also going to differ based upon modifications.

FLY BY Z

That is what I am saying you should not want to do. Was your post with me or against me before? I thought you were against but I still don't see how it relates to monthly payments. I am saying buy the parts you want and if you get a 13.0 then good for you. Of course you are going to naturally know that I plenum will build power and a stereo won't. That is about all you can assume though. But also, you can use a plenum OR headers OR an intake and exhaust and acheive very similar results.

VandyZ

iTrader: (2)

No No No, its not your fault! You ask a very valid question and in the correct way. Some people with lack of product and lack of the info you want like to get on their soapbox and cloud the air with their skepticism. In some peoples eyes we are guilty until proven guilty . . .yeah that’s right we will never be able to prove the products worth.

Its not like we are comparing Chevys to Fords. Right now the only competition we have is people who to give us very little credit and like to complain about something. So I think it is only fair that we stand up and not get pounded by these remarks. Until someone else makes a product that competes with ours we will have to fend for ourselves. If someone does out do us sometime then it is back to square one. There is no need to one up anyone except to defend against the skeptics until that time comes!

FLY BY Z

This is what I am saying too. Don't worry, bk. We are right.

VandyZ

iTrader: (2)

I am confused now . . .just saying that planning is everything.

How is that?

hfm

iTrader: (1)

This was obviously directed at me. So, I'll respond with saying, for the second or third time, Crawford is biased about their performance claims. Hard evidence of gains would be from disinterested customers that post their dynos.

And, I'm not clouding the air, nor am I on a soap box, or devils advocate or decided on this issue.

Until people post their dynos, there is no hard evidence. It doesn't get any clearer than that.