hfm

iTrader: (1)

Good luck on the dyno!

zzzya

iTrader: (2)

I wish I could HFM, but I do not have access to a chassis dyno. Oh how I wish I did. And yes, I initially got wrapped up in The Individual's comments that struck me wrong, but I took a step back and did a lot of searching and looked at various Dynos already posted here and there and decided that the headers were more than worth the money being asked. After installing them I couldn't be happier. The Individual is right, the Crawford package simply makes power!! I will see just how fast this baby is next year when the snow clears and the strip opens. Unfortunately some of you are getting wrapped up in the comments The Individual is making instead of looking at the actual information that is out there, talking to Doug at Crawford, and trying the product for yourself. The Individual makes the comments because he has PERSONALLY driven a Crawford car and the claims are for real. I have never met any of the gentleman from TN, have no affiliation, or been bribed to say anything I have ever said about Crawford parts. As mentioned, I too wanted to see some more information at one time, but now that I have the personal experience I feel the same way The Individual and Vandy feel, god this stuff just makes power! I only wish I had a Dynojet nearby so I could have shown the rest of you the results.

rouxeny

Maybe I am being the devil's advocate, but I agree with hfm. I've been interested in the plenum since it came out. It seems like a very logical design, and I know that Crawford has done the testing. There are also, as they say, over a hundred satisfied customers. Pretty much everything I read about it has been good.

However, the original thread on this post asks essentially if there are any independent dynos. I have always wondered the same thing, and I haven't been able to find much, if any.

To the guys at Crawford, despite how you guys are taking it, hfm is NOT calling your product "trash." He's simply stating that naturally, you are biased for your product. That's fine, that's normal for any company. I would think it odd if you weren't. He points out that there are basically zero independent dynos. I think that's a valid point.

Obviously, many people don't seem to care about it, seeing as business is good for you. I think business would be better if there were such dynos though. I know I'd be a lot more interested.

I don't think this needs to turn into any more of a pissing match.

hfm

iTrader: (1)

Zzzya, you're a druggist/pharmacist so you're well educated in the scientific method. We know that is a theory/ hypothesis that is subject to proof under controlled environment until a conclusion is reached. Please consider that this hasn't been done and that there is a lot of subjectivity rather than objective data for the plenum.

From my experience, I would say that the UR crank pulley gives you more power than any of your other modifications. I base this comment from the dyno run of multiple persons of various modifcations at the same dyno on the same day. And, yes, even that needed more of a controlled circumstance but, it's persuasive evidence. I don't know if you installed the pulley before, after or at the same time as your other modifications but consider, that maybe what you're feeling is pulling your car.

Rouxeny, you know that when I post, I usually take care not to be offensive or personally attack anyone. When someone attacks me, I take even greater care not to respond in kind least the matter degrade down to nothing more than a pissing contest and have no value. So, I had no problem with VandyZ and The Individual making any comment towards me that I didn't like. But, when The Individual started bringing down the crap on daytona and zxsaint, I draw the line and say enough.

I was perfectly content to leave things at where VandyZ summarized our positions. Then the Individual starts on other members when they post their opinions and they happen not to give Crawford oodles of accolades. All they were doing was offering to clarify the matter or even better, to take their time to help resolve the issue. Please feel free to let me know if I step over the line but frankly, I'm willing to take strikes just to shut him down if The Individual keeps posting attacks against other forum members.

I'm with you on being interested with the plenum since it came out. I was so interested that I asked my usual knowledgable source about it. His comment was essentially that the engine has won awards for almost a decade. If there were something wrong with the stock plenum or a way to improve it, Nissan who has spent millions in it's design would have done so. So, who are these fantastic team of engineers that in less than a year and on a shoe string budget, single handedly create the solution that creates simply incredible, awesome, *add your glowing comment* amounts of power?

Where are the dynos? When the Borla TD came out, there were loads of independent dynos. That's the way to prove something works.

Thank you for your comments. They're appreciated.

[Edit: sp]

2003z

iTrader: (7)

maybe people are tired of wasting money on dynos. I've spent about $500 at the dyno shop (that could have been a plenum!), going through various before and afters, now I only test at the drag strip.

zzzya

iTrader: (2)

As a pharmacist and highly educated individual, I would hope that my opinion can be somewhat trusted. I am not here blowing smoke and only want the best for forum members. I am trying to add a voice outside of The Individual and Vandy because everyone knows they are close to Crawford and Doug. I voice my opinion to hopefully help people realize that their products are for real and that the power my car is putting down is for real. I completely agree that there is a lot of subjective information out there on these parts and my post is no different so you must take it as you wish. I simply do not have a chassis dyno here to put my car on to give you the ultimate proof. Yes the Pulleys make a difference, that is why I bought them, but in no way did the pulleys do what the Plenum does at the upper rpms, nor did the pulleys give me the power and TQ I am now experiencing after adding the headers, and I mean real power and TQ that you can feel. There are simply some things that are not worth wasting money on the DYNO even if I had access to one. I personally would have needed the DYNO to "see" a difference with the exhaust, CAI, pulleys and High Flow cats. The Plenum and Headers are a much different story as I could tell right away something great just went on my car.

lowrider

iTrader: (3)

Hey Guys - Chill.

I started reading this thread (from the back to front) and got a headache. So much hositility out there. Simple choice here, believe Crawford (Doug) or not. This is America for god sake. It's your choice.

I talked to Doug, I looked at the plenum, and by gosh, it made sense to me. My plenum has been on close to five months now, so I've gotten used to it. I remember after I put it on, running out, getting on the Freeway, and blasting thru the gears, The damn thing really worked. I patted myself on the back, called Doug and thanked him.

I love the plenum, IMHO, and only my opinion, it is the Best Bang for the Buck out there. Believe it or don't. Doug has people standing in line for these things. I was one of the lucky ones, I got there early, and only had to wait a week for mine and I've had five months to enjoy it.

My point - This thread is serving no useful purpose other than pissing a lot of people off. Let's cease the name calling. Decide for youself and go on living. If you think Doug's Dynos are rigged, good for you. Don't get a plenum, do something else. Most of the rest us us wont give a darn, and wont even care.

Lou

hfm

iTrader: (1)

Your integrity is not at all at issue and your opinion is valuable. I have no reason to disbelieve anything you say. However, I've found that just because someone is highly educated doesn't mean that person's opinion can be trusted. Look at it this way:

1. A highly educated person should be trusted.
2. A person who is not highly educated, should not be trusted.
3. I know of many uneducated persons who I trust implicitly. I know many educated persons who I would not trust at all. Therefore, #2 and #1 above must be false because trust is not necessarily the product of education.

Or, look at it this way. When I represent a client, I obtain expert witness testimony in the form of a medical report. The opposing party obtains rebuttal expert medical report. Both doctors are highly educated. Both doctors claim diametrically opposite reasoning and conclusion. Both doctors can not be right. Which doctor will the judge believe? The doctor that offers persuasive, objective medical evidence based upon a proper history, examination, diagnostic tests and objective findings.

On this issue, the point of the thread, and the answer to the question, no there is no real evidence for the plenum. There are just subjective opinions.

If you had a dyno, you'd have something to offer to the table. But, if I wanted someone's subjective opinion, that's what I would have asked for when starting the thread. "What do you think of the Crawford plenum" would have been a fine title for that purpose. That was the purpose commenting about your profession. You know the difference between subjective and objective evidence. That's what this thread is about.

Lowrider, sorry for your headache. But, when you commented about the rest of the people not giving a darn or even caring, I have to say, apathy is a terrible thing. When I was a kid, my pops gave me the riot act for saying "I don't care" about something or another. It took a longtime before I understood the importance about caring. If you don't care, that's your choice. You obviously care enough to post your comments and opinions, and that's fine.

FLY BY Z

It is marketing. Third party perspective and word of mouth are by far more powerful than claims by a manufacturer. Everyone on this board agrees and that is why they demand dynos from all other manufacturers AND from people who put the other parts on so they KNOW that the gains are real. People just beleive other people more than they believe for-profit businesses. That is just life. And this is what I have been trying to express all along. Individual apparently does not work for Crawford which makes it all the more confusing when he swears by the product. He is however on the Crawford homepage. How affiliated are we? Quite. Anyways, everyone talks of the scientific method. So shouldn't that include empirical evidence like dynos (non-Crawford)? I think so and they don't really exist. Why the double standard?

Individual and Crawford and I have been round and round several times on this board. My concern is not so much with the product, just with what I have just posted. It is somewhat misleading to other people in the market for an intake or headers. Personally, I am waiting for LSDUnique's intake offering even if it takes another year. Is everyone in a giant hurry for another 9 horsepower? If other intakes come out and are not better, I will probably get a Crawford intake as an intake is a necessary mod on the Z. But not until there are other choices.

PhoenixINX

Round and round and round... even then I'll still the first round!

Did you ever get your sussie from Doug, btw?

Guys - as for changing my name on here tons of time - it's because the moderators in conjunction with Doug thought it was awfully funny. Too many inside jokes to explain... though it's not because anyone disliked me! lol

Bad news on the Crawford front though... I won't dare go into details. I'll let Doug say it later today.

FLY BY Z

What are you talking about? I never liked you.

12SecZ

Ditto and well put. It got to where I was paying for dyno time by the hour when I first started N/A.

I was looking for just a Crawford Dyno but I have so many dynos and time sheets that I can't keep up and I can go to the track all night for 15 bucks not 65 for 3 pulls!

HFM,

I don't have the plenum on my car but I would if they were not so back ordered and I wasn't so broke. When I did it really made a difference though. It flows more air in, more air in is good. Nissan designers are not perfect, just look at all the TSB's.

I apreciate your logcal polite approach to the issue but dyno's don't mean much to me anymore. And what about torque numbers? I have an A5T so I like torque and my track times are consistant so my 3 tenths gain is not subject to any variables like driving or conditions or track; all were the same. If you had one on your car you could not help but feel it but I can't explain that over the Internet. I can only say I had it and would do it again because I made gains. It's fugly you lose the stock STB etc. And I would still do it. Isn't that worth anything?

This is my idea of a great N/A setup.

1. Gruppe CAI
2. UR crank pulley
3. Crawford plenum
4. Exhaust of your choice.

less than 2k and aprox .6 at the track. That is over half a second but more importantly the sound, the torque the pull, man I miss that. I use to go out on country roads in manual mode and just pull the top end through 1-3 and run out of road. And it just sounded great. I wish I could go back to those simple days.

I would do it all over again, except my Intake was Injen which I would change to Gruppe. Everything else would be the same.

With plus or minus 3 points on the Dyno as a variable it gets expensive wasting money on a Dynojet so I use my butt and the track. I am not trying to sway you, just sharing my experience. I haven't talked to anyone at Crawford for months so I have no allegiance to them or anyone so this is an "independant" review.

If they post a dyno that shows 7rwhp with a variable of 3 points it honestly wouldn't mean anything to me.

Brad4rdHay

If you say that you wont make anymore plenums, i might just go cry in my garage...

PhoenixINX

Troll troll troll troll...



What's your AIM btw?

12SecZ

Here is some pics for this thread.

12SecZ

.

12SecZ

is worth a thousand words right?

FLY BY Z

I don't have that.

PhoenixINX

Go download it...

There are typically 20+ Z members online all the time. Good way to ask quick q's.

Or take... QUICK STABS!

I'm heading down to the shop... we'll keep everyone posted on the "bad news".

FLY BY Z

Robbery or vandalism?