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Tire FEATHERING: FYI

Old 01-31-2003, 01:34 PM
  #21  
slaponte
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Default Just got my car back, guess what...

My Toe was off.

Ok, the dealer was great. I didn't buy the car from them but that doesn't matter. I told the advisor I wanted the toe checked to avoid damage to my tires. He wrote down "customer states car pulls to the right". I asked him about it and he said this way they check Toe. Interesting.

When I got the car back, inside the car was my alignment report. Toe was off in front AND back, left and right.

In degrees :
FL: from -0.04 after adj +0.03
FR: from -0.06 after adj +0.05
RL: from -0.06 after adj +0.05
RR: from -0.01 after adj +0.06

Total Toe went from
Front : -0.10 after adj +0.08
Rear : -0.07 after adj +0.10

They also fixed one tire sensor (probably reprogrammed the receiver) and gave me a free oil change. They also ordered my BOSE amp, no questions asked.

Very happy with Maroone Nissan in Coral Gables!!
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Old 01-31-2003, 03:01 PM
  #22  
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Default Re: Re: Re: Toe in 1/3" out of spec.

Originally posted by Enforcer
The nominal toe value is 1mm according to the service manual. Assuming (big word) the rim is exactly 18" and I remember geometry, the angle would be arctan 1/(18*25.4) or 0.125 degrees. An inch of toe would be arctan 1/18 or 3.18 degrees.


Enforcer
So, if I'm not totally stupid, 1/3" would be 1.06 degrees off nominal. If the answer is yes, the toe-in is PROBABLY NOT RESPONSIBLE for the abnormal wear according to Nissan's specs, right? The tire is/was only .06 degrees off the acceptable range, and we have a CASTER problem, by design(flaw) or by accident(shipping?). It would appear not all of us have the problem, so a design flaw answer has a low probablilty factor. Therefore, it would seem something happened to the cars exhibiting the problem between the factory and us taking delivery. We need a caster fix from Nissan or a good number of us will be having our new, OE replacement tires start to have the same problems that are showing up on cars w/the OE tires. Tires which we paid between $600-$1000+ for that are currently mounted on our cars.

Enforcer, please tell me I'm wrong. I believe I should file a complaint w/NNA now about my irregular tire wear at 1600 miles if I'm right. Yes? No?
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Old 01-31-2003, 04:11 PM
  #23  
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Boomer I really don't know. Ask me again in 2000 miles. But one thing I feel real confident of, its not just toe. It could be an odd combination of parameters to include the tire itself. The fact is, toe is the only alignment adjustment built in. In any event, you should definitely file a complaint if you have this tire wear.

Again, I'm also real confident that the Nissan engineers will get to the bottom of it and fix it, if they haven't already.


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Old 02-02-2003, 07:37 AM
  #24  
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Enforcer (and others),

Thanks for all of this info. Please continue to post whatever you
find out about this problem. I am currently trying to decide
whether or not to buy the Z, and I want to see a resolultion to
this problem before I go out and get one. Please keep up the
good work!
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Old 02-04-2003, 12:27 PM
  #25  
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Originally posted by Enforcer
Boomer I really don't know. Ask me again in 2000 miles. But one thing I feel real confident of, its not just toe. It could be an odd combination of parameters to include the tire itself. The fact is, toe is the only alignment adjustment built in. In any event, you should definitely file a complaint if you have this tire wear.

Again, I'm also real confident that the Nissan engineers will get to the bottom of it and fix it, if they haven't already.


Enforcer
My service writer called me and said he and the alignment tech had gone over my alignment info. He said both front and rear toe were off and were adjusted, but camber and caster were within nominal limits. I feel more secure about my new tires, but will continue to monitor the wear on my tires.
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Old 02-06-2003, 04:40 PM
  #26  
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Default alignment/feathering issue

after about 6000 miles my car started the roaring noise and as a result of this site i realized what was going on. i took my car in today to advantage nissan in league city, texas for evaluation.
they worked on it all day. they called nissan and got information. switched my tires from side to side, remounting and balancing, and aligned the wheels. when i came to pick it up they said that they will be getting me new tires and will call me. there was never a hassle, no mention of any bill whatsoever and i couldnt be happier. this is nissan service at its very best and i can only thank advantage nissan.
i know that i sound like a commercial but i would encourage anyone in the houston area to seriously consider seeking them out. they are an absolute pleasure to deal with.
kevin katz

performance
6 speed
silverstone
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Old 02-06-2003, 05:36 PM
  #27  
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An update. I went in at 5200 miles with bad tire feathering. As is the case with many Z's, my toe was off so they aligned it and swapped the L and R tires. Since then I have put about 1200 miles on it and the tires are now starting to feather on the inside again. The alignment did not fix my problem.
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Old 02-06-2003, 05:58 PM
  #28  
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Originally posted by ATL350Z
An update. I went in at 5200 miles with bad tire feathering. As is the case with many Z's, my toe was off so they aligned it and swapped the L and R tires. Since then I have put about 1200 miles on it and the tires are now starting to feather on the inside again. The alignment did not fix my problem.
I would take it directly back to the dealer, they should be authorized by Nissan to give you new tires and re-align it. They should have told you they would when they swapped the tires. Other owners were told to try the swap for 2000 miles, if it didn't work, they would get new tires from Nissan.

Just in case, do a search for Dragon Lady Z, she gave out a lead contact at NNA and his phone number, his name is David, I think, good luck.
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Old 02-06-2003, 08:11 PM
  #29  
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Default Feathering

OK... so all this talk about feathering has gotten me concerned. I'm at 1350 miles and I'm starting to wonder what I should do. Do I have this problem? Will it start to develop? How do I diagnose? I ask these questions because I really hate going to the dealership. Its just not convenient. Visually the tires appear OK, but they don't feel right. Could be the power of suggestion.

Anyway, my solution is to treat this like a fingerprint or rubber stamp. If I can make an imprint on a hard surface with the correct medium then I should be able to see a slight difference in the tread that's not perceptible to either the eye, or the fingers.

WARNING/DISCLAIMER: I don't endorse the following actions, nor do I recommend you attempt this.

So here's what I did. Most, if not all of us, use some type of rubber shine liquid on the sides of our tires. (Think Armor All/Eagle One, etc). Its relatively safe for rubber, and is a petroleum based product. Now think about what oil does to paper. Anyone who eats a hoagie (sub or grinder or the rest of the US), knows that the oil bleeds straight through the paper.

I applied the tire shine to approximately 6 inches of the tire tread, from shoulder to shoulder. I took two pieces of paper from the printer, marked them left & right, then put them under the tread. I then drove the car over the paper. The result was a really good picture of the contact patch which I could now analyze and compare.

My observations...
1. Distance between the tread blocks on the tire print is equal on the inside and outside
2. Distance is consistent across both tires.
3. Measured distance between blocks is 4mm.
4. Running my hand along the tread, it feels like a heel-toe wear similar to what Enforcer has posted at
http://www.lasercannon.com/Newz/trouble.htm , but its along the outer edge, not the inner edge.
5. Tires and tire print visually appear to be sharp

Conclusion...
Not sure if this technique is an accurate gauge to measure tire wear. It seemed to make sense, but I would need to compare it to the results from other cars. Especially those who can visually observe the problem. My guess is that we'd see a wider gap between the blocks on the inner shoulder. The possible problem is that the rubber complies enough where we won't see the gap difference. The absolute edges are a bit fuzzy in the print. Could be due to missed tire shine, or the nature of printing a tire.

This test was done on cold tires, I plan on trying again once they're nice and warm. This should eliminate the edge fuzziness. But that won't happen soon since we're getting a good snow here in NJ...

If anyone's interested I can post pictures of the tires and/or prints.

I'd be interested in any thoughts or results. My girlfriend thinks I'm insane for doing this... anyone else?
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Old 02-06-2003, 09:32 PM
  #30  
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Default Re: Feathering

Originally posted by YourMomma
OK... so all this talk about feathering has gotten me concerned. I'm at 1350 miles and I'm starting to wonder what I should do. Do I have this problem? Will it start to develop? How do I diagnose? I ask these questions because I really hate going to the dealership. Its just not convenient. Visually the tires appear OK, but they don't feel right. Could be the power of suggestion.

Anyway, my solution is to treat this like a fingerprint or rubber stamp. If I can make an imprint on a hard surface with the correct medium then I should be able to see a slight difference in the tread that's not perceptible to either the eye, or the fingers.

WARNING/DISCLAIMER: I don't endorse the following actions, nor do I recommend you attempt this.

So here's what I did. Most, if not all of us, use some type of rubber shine liquid on the sides of our tires. (Think Armor All/Eagle One, etc). Its relatively safe for rubber, and is a petroleum based product. Now think about what oil does to paper. Anyone who eats a hoagie (sub or grinder or the rest of the US), knows that the oil bleeds straight through the paper.

I applied the tire shine to approximately 6 inches of the tire tread, from shoulder to shoulder. I took two pieces of paper from the printer, marked them left & right, then put them under the tread. I then drove the car over the paper. The result was a really good picture of the contact patch which I could now analyze and compare.

My observations...
1. Distance between the tread blocks on the tire print is equal on the inside and outside
2. Distance is consistent across both tires.
3. Measured distance between blocks is 4mm.
4. Running my hand along the tread, it feels like a heel-toe wear similar to what Enforcer has posted at
http://www.lasercannon.com/Newz/trouble.htm , but its along the outer edge, not the inner edge.
5. Tires and tire print visually appear to be sharp

Conclusion...
Not sure if this technique is an accurate gauge to measure tire wear. It seemed to make sense, but I would need to compare it to the results from other cars. Especially those who can visually observe the problem. My guess is that we'd see a wider gap between the blocks on the inner shoulder. The possible problem is that the rubber complies enough where we won't see the gap difference. The absolute edges are a bit fuzzy in the print. Could be due to missed tire shine, or the nature of printing a tire.

This test was done on cold tires, I plan on trying again once they're nice and warm. This should eliminate the edge fuzziness. But that won't happen soon since we're getting a good snow here in NJ...

If anyone's interested I can post pictures of the tires and/or prints.

I'd be interested in any thoughts or results. My girlfriend thinks I'm insane for doing this... anyone else?
Mine were starting to wear on the outside edge too/with 1600 miles. I would suggest you go to the dealer and get an alignment, this has happened to enough cars that your dealer will know about it. Tell him you got it off this site and Nissan is responding to the problem, if he waffles, and Nissan is paying dealers to do this.
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Old 02-14-2003, 09:59 AM
  #31  
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I think the TSB is NTB03-006 dated 23 January 2003, for this problem.

Is anybody able to get a copy and post it?
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Old 02-14-2003, 08:23 PM
  #32  
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Default Re: Feathering

Originally posted by YourMomma

If anyone's interested I can post pictures of the tires and/or prints.

I'd be interested in any thoughts or results. My girlfriend thinks I'm insane for doing this... anyone else?
That was a great idea! Please post all. No, your not insane, your motivated!

But you have to take it to the dealer no matter how painfull. Get your alignment, balance and tires swapped. Then call NNA and file a complaint. Your the first one I've read having this issue on the outside tread blocks. I find that highly interesting. Please, when you take it to the dealer, get a copy of your alignment sheet and post it. This may be a very important clue.

A friend of mine said he had something similar on an RX7 with Yokohamas. Claimed the tire had a harder compound on the outside tread blocks than the inside. He's usually right, but I can't confirm it. Seeing as how not all Z's appear at this time to have the problem, Nissan is replacing the tires, and in one reported case even Bridgestone, it could very well be a tire issue. But there are many other variables. Your alignment data could be the key.


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Old 02-14-2003, 08:28 PM
  #33  
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Default Re: Re: Feathering

Originally posted by Boomer
Mine were starting to wear on the outside edge too/with 1600 miles. I would suggest you go to the dealer and get an alignment, this has happened to enough cars that your dealer will know about it. Tell him you got it off this site and Nissan is responding to the problem, if he waffles, and Nissan is paying dealers to do this.
Boomer I must have missed something. I didn't realize yours were worn on the outside. Can you post your alignment info?


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Old 02-14-2003, 09:32 PM
  #34  
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Default Re: Re: Re: Feathering

Originally posted by Enforcer
Boomer I must have missed something. I didn't realize yours were worn on the outside. Can you post your alignment info?


Enforcer
I'm afraid I didn't get it. I just reviewed it w/my service writer and he had the alignment explained to him and , besides the toe-out, my caster and camber were in spec. I have worked w/him for yrs, so I trust him, but, as I said, I will be watching the tire wear very closely. If it goes bad, I have it on my record. A hard copy is probably not available now. I only have 400 miles on the new tires, so wear is non-exsistant now.
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Old 02-20-2003, 06:13 AM
  #35  
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Default Does anyone have an alignment fix update?

Anyone that has their alignment fixed can you give us an update on how the tires are wearing now and did this fix the problems?
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Old 02-20-2003, 08:43 AM
  #36  
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Default Re: Does anyone have an alignment fix update?

I had the alignment done about 1100 miles ago. I presently am going on 14,000 miles total. They also did the tire swap side to side. Initially, the low speed growling was gone and it was sweet while on the road at any speed. The silence lasted less than 500 miles in my case. Now, the tire noise (growling) is easily heard all the way up to 85mph. I was very unhappy to say the least! I have put an additional 600+ miles on and it is just getting worse. I told my s/w I wanted the paperwork showing the alignment details when I p/u my car. I did not receive the alignment details from my service writer afterward. Now, I wish I had demanded them from him at that time because he is now saying that the only way those are released is that if I had paid for the alignment, not when warrantee work is done Duh, ALL the 350's are still under warrantee and I have seen that sheet posted here from another 350 owner.
I am thouroughly miffed with their attitude. Finally, I got to the top service dog and he listened, made a few notes and said my new tires would be here on Monday! I had been trying to get them to do this for well over a month to no avail. It is so important to get above the service writers, shop foreman, etc. if you want to get things taken care of. Even though they have finally rectified this situation, I expect the same type of hassle the next time I need them to stand up and take action for me and the car. I am not willing to go through this each time before reaching satisfaction w/Nissan dealers.
This has left me with a real sour taste in my mouth with this dealership and I will be changing dealers asap.
And so...... Nissan dealers continue to shoot themselves in the foot. Regards, Jim




Originally posted by jelledge
Anyone that has their alignment fixed can you give us an update on how the tires are wearing now and did this fix the problems?
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Old 02-20-2003, 11:48 AM
  #37  
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Yeah, I can relate JimH. The service manager that I went to made me go to Firestone and get a letter from them stating that it was an alignment problem and not a tire problem. This was after his own tech told him that it was an alignment issue. His concern was getting stuck with the cost of the new tires (not get reimbursed by Nissan). I got my new tires and all is well so far. But it seems like a pretty cruddy way to treat owners. I hope Nissan is paying attention because issues like this are enough to tip the scales to another manufacturer when it comes time for the next auto purchase.
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Old 02-20-2003, 02:13 PM
  #38  
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I had a similar situation at the same dealer as Jim H. In my case they damaged my rims when they did the rotation and didn't even re-balance my tires. The road noise is gone (for now) but the car has a slight pull to the right now and when turning sharply, I can feel and see the steering wheel "jiggle" a little as the tires as so out of shape. I requested a copy of my alignment data and they gave it to me but it was only the after alignment data.

They are replacing my tires... I think the service manager was afraid for his life after what they did to my rims (which are also being fixed now). They told me to call Nissan consumer affairs to report the problem about the tires. I think the dealer is afraid they won't get reimbursed for them. They told me that the more customers complain about the issue to Nissan, the easier it will be for the dealers to replace tires.

Most dealers don't have the right equipment to dis-mount/re-mount the low profile tires on the Z and have to sub it out. Make sure to check with your dealer about this and make sure they take them to a tire shop that can do it right.

I hope this will solve the problem for good, but if not, Nissan now has a record of what was done in case there are any furure problems.
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Old 02-20-2003, 07:33 PM
  #39  
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Cool Shhh.. Big Secret!!!

I thought it was kinda strange when my service guy told me not to be telling everyone I got free tires. He tried to act like he was doing me a favor but he also new that I post here and on other boards so maybe it is hush hush... i thought he was just trying to act like he was doing me a big favor... I dunno...

I don't think they have fixed the problem though!! I expect the new tires will wear the same in 6000 miles or so. If it happens for a 3rd time I can appeal to the state for a new vehicle under the lemon law statue so whatever : )
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Old 02-21-2003, 05:28 PM
  #40  
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Default Re: Shhh.. Big Secret!!!

Originally posted by KeepRT
I thought it was kinda strange when my service guy told me not to be telling everyone I got free tires. He tried to act like he was doing me a favor but he also new that I post here and on other boards so maybe it is hush hush... i thought he was just trying to act like he was doing me a big favor... I dunno...

I don't think they have fixed the problem though!! I expect the new tires will wear the same in 6000 miles or so. If it happens for a 3rd time I can appeal to the state for a new vehicle under the lemon law statue so whatever : )
You aren't the only one. A friend was told to keep it hushed after getting his tires replaced. It seems as though Nissan is trying to keep it low profile - replace tires only when absolutely necessary.
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