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Tire FEATHERING: FYI

Old 03-25-2003, 04:10 PM
  #141  
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Default Re: Tire exchange

Originally posted by JimH
Rob, Interesting story they gave you on the mileage parameters for tire replacement. They exchanged mine a week or so back at 15,400 miles and no mention of any mileage cap. They wanted the old tires as it is a warranty adjustment and they "want to examine them back in Japan." Regards, Jim
Rob, Jim, it sounds like Nissan Japan is taking an interest. Thats good, IMO, because they can eliminate NNA's stalling on repairs by authorizing the replacement tires/springs/etc be fitted to our cars. Maybe this the the logjam breaker and Nissan Japan can get their engineering act together on our cars and get us the parts we need. Hope so.

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Old 03-25-2003, 06:28 PM
  #142  
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Originally posted by RobJames
~snip~

Hey, what happened to all of the early guys having this problem that were responding on this thread early on? Did they all get new tires and are now just waiting for the problem to start again, or did they get it fixed?
Well, I'm still here and have been watching these threads with great interest and deep thought. Sorry in advance for the length.

First time I went in, dealer didn't swap tires but did the alignment, NNA rep (Steve) caught it and I went back a second time in a couple weeks to get the tire swap done. The way he caught it was that the noise didn't change one iota so he called the dealer and found they didn't have the TSB. Of course this was after I told the dealer there was one... Anyhow the noise went away immediately after the dealer performed the tire swap and then came back within a couple of weeks and now my tires are doing the same thing. So I called NNA again and explained the fix isn't working, that there were many having this problem in the forum and recommended he talk to the engineers or have them read my web site or call me because outside of the tranny problems, this one is major. I asked him what Nissan's official position was and he said to the best of his knowledge alignment was the fix. He understood that I was living proof it wasn't a fix. I told him I didn't want a tire swap because that will just ruin another pair of tires needlessly. I told him what I want is a permanent fix. That was a week or two ago. Since then, I have been very busy at work and keep missing him. I am hoping to talk to him tomorrow. Will post if I make contact.

I do believe Nissan is going to fix it and I hope that what I will hear tomorrow is the truth. I'm tired of dealer antics and Nissan not stepping up to the plate. I applaud everybody's efforts to come together in this group to make this a point and try to figure it out.

Towards that end...The truth to me is there is a design problem and it is not fixed by toe alignment alone. Past that my tires are not cupping, this is also not the generally referred to "feathering", and this is also not scalloping. My problem IS an abnormal wear phenomenon that results in a heel to toe feathering pattern circumferentially around the tire (on the inside tread block in my case), which does not have a pat name. Camber (while not adjustable, differing weights of our cars can change ride camber - occupant/tools/etc) may throw this wear from inside to outside tread block or across all tread blocks but I don't believe camber will solve it either. I believe camber will just change where it happens on the tire or extend the effect over time if camber is such that the forces are distributed evenly across the entire tread contact surface. I may buy a camber adjustment kit and have the camber set with me in it, all my normal stuff and a full tank of gas. But, the websites I have seen and the people I have talked to, attribute this unusual wear to vehicles with excessive castor alignments. A friend of mine recently told me his son had this problem (don't remember the car) and ultimately they had to replace his rims/wheels *and* tires. Now just today I met a guy that has a Civic and since he changed tires, he claims to have the same problems I do only his road noise is worse, only on the rear wheels! The kicker is, he bought Bridgestone Potenza tires! But I have not seen his tires to verify this. It's always interesting to see how many people are quick to, oh yeah I got that T-shirt, so I'm skeptical. It also seems possible to me that shocks and springs and dampening rates could contribute to this as well as braking. It could also be that the effect is accentuated with soft tire compositions.

So ultimately...I STILL DON'T KNOW.

Just when I think we may be on to something...WHAM. This is a really complex issue. All of the other standard wear patterns I can visualize and understand the wear mechanisms. But if you asked a ME to design a system that would do exactly what mine is doing, they are hard pressed. I have some ME coworkers (I'm a EE) and we have looked at the car and discussed it, it is really a head scratcher. But our business isn't suspension and tires. With that said, I believe the engineers at Nissan will figure it out, certainly have more experience and probably already have.

Now others in these threads have said their tires are cupped. If true, then that is springs, shocks, wheel bearings, worn suspension joints and the well known issues and causes that every tire shop and dealer should know and is stated on many websites. But if it really isn't cupping and is like what I have, I still refer to the websites I originally posted. Cupping is wearing of the tire shoulders (edges rounded off and mine are not). Scalloping is dishing out of the tire across the tread and the dishes are circumferentially oriented around the tire but not heel to toe on every tread block. Normal feathering is a heel toe pattern across the tread block, the direction tells whether it is caused by too much toe in or too much toe out, but not heel toe circumferentially around the tire like mine.

I cringed when my dealer told me he thought the tires were cupped (first trip when they did the alignment only). When I showed him on my Z and explained this to him he said...."hmmm your right!" Then I also told him that if he called it cupping that an alignment wouldn't fix it, it would probably have to be defective suspension parts. He got my point.

So, if your tires are cupped (mine aren't) then that may be another problem and might require a different fix. I hesitate to combine my problem with the ride issue (shocks and springs) unless your tires are truly cupped or scalloped. But I don't rule it out. A high frequency natural oscillation in the tire caused by the entire suspension system (rims, tires, springs, shocks, aluminum multi-link suspension) has merit. Maybe not enough to cup but has merit. So I'm wondering now, do we have two tire problems going on or a single combination suspension-tire problem?

Lastly, my NNA contact (Steven) has been really nice and helpful. You have to understand they aren't engineers. In fact, he wishes he could afford a new Z... He has been great and will swap my tires but also listened and understands my concern. I don't want to ruin another set of tires, regardless of who pays for them. I'm more interested in figuring this out and fixing it. Then I'll get a set of tires I really want (they won't be Bridgestone). So thanks to Steve (if you are reading) and keep up the good work. My dealer has been really nice, just not very experienced (*ahem*, *cough*, competent, *sigh*).

With that said, I also deeply believe that Nissan does know what the problem is and has for some time. What they may not know is how to fix it for sure or what the best (cheapest/time/tradeoff) approach is to fix it or they may know and just don't have resources aligned yet.

The ongoing part changes may be an indicator but also may not be. I don't know the Nissan supply system. The changes could be different designs or just different suppliers. And it could be related to the ride problem which may have nothing to do with my tire problem and it could be just a bad batch of tires problem. What would be interesting is to order these parts, replace the tires and try it. That would be a good test. When I talk to NNA (hopefully tomorrow) I'll see what he has to say and ask about doing this test depending on what he says.

I applaud everybody's thoughts and efforts on many different fronts, and from many different perspectives. Diligence and patience will pay off, keep it up!

And even though my Z sounds like my '83 3/4 ton dodge 4-wheel drive pickup, I still drive my Z every day!


Enforcer

P.S. I did not have a pull to one side or the other either before the alignment or after nor before or after the tire swap. I don't race, I'm not on a track, most of my mileage is straight and level but a few fun curves, speed varies from 35, 45 and 70 MPH speed limits, 7 stop lights one way, 21.4mpg and 42 mph average, 40 miles every day rain or sun and no apparent affect on braking or cornering.
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Old 03-25-2003, 06:41 PM
  #143  
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Originally posted by RobJames
Hey, what happened to all of the early guys having this problem that were responding on this thread early on? Did they all get new tires and are now just waiting for the problem to start again, or did they get it fixed?
I am still here watching VERY closely. I just don't have anything to add. I did get my new tires and have about 1200 miles on them. No noise yet but I expect it to be back. I am sure that there are many like me that are just watching and waiting...
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Old 03-25-2003, 07:16 PM
  #144  
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Default Enforcer..

I was one of the first (that I know of) to have this problem. I got my car last August and had the tires replaced by the Bridgestone Delaer in November. I had about 5000 miles on them. I now have about 10,700 and the tires are doing the same thing. So jsut because you replace the tires doesn't mean that the problem is fixed.
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Old 03-25-2003, 08:19 PM
  #145  
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crap, well I just inspected my tires, they were beginning to FEATHER even though they only had 1100 miles on them I have had 2 cars with feathering probs (do to low damp rate struts), so I am well aware of what it is, I guess I need to call NNA.

PLUS I HAVE A 12/02 BUILD DATE!!!!!--no wonder there are NEW springs going on (again)

now I have TOYOs on there, I am REALLY gonna be mad when these start to feather, they are NOT cheep (good thing my family is "involved" with the Nissan dealer. That should make it easier to get tires AND FIX when it comes down to that, I just better be able to get MONEY towards the tires I want!!!! (the Toyos are NOT cheap, even at wholesale).
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Old 03-25-2003, 08:26 PM
  #146  
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based on some recent comments, it does sound like Nissan does know of hte problem and is working to FIX it, I would guess that they are dragging everyone along with the NEW tire thing, b/c the know it isn't a FIX and want to wait til they GET the FIX finalized to give out new tires, since tehy could do a new spring/damper switch at teh same time they do the NEW tires (just a guess). The tires probably cost nissan as much or MORE than a new set of front dampers/struts (or springs).
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Old 03-25-2003, 08:29 PM
  #147  
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ITs nice that STeven has credited you with a set of new tires, I've been trying to get the same thing done by him for the last week but he has refused to do so. Obviously he knows that its a suspension problem, and he's been trying to push it off on me as if it were a tire defect knowing it isn't. This really ticks me off, I've gone through the trouble of going to 3 different Bridgestone dealership to prove it wasn't a tire defect(wich already i KNew) and when I thought NIssan couldn't get any lower they pull this crap.. I just want a set of new tires, so I can get this car sold ASAP>. (*U^&)(&{)&()_)+S+)JPDSJP{FDS" *ARgghhhh*
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Old 03-26-2003, 06:47 AM
  #148  
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Default What if we ALL called the same Nissan Rep?

Here is a thought. What if we ALL CALLED (Steven @ Nissan) and told him about our cupping/feathering tires. Many of us are calling different Nissan people and getting different stories.

It sounds like this Steven guy, is willing to do what he can to resolve this issue. And if one rep was having to field ALL of our calls maybe this issue to be sent to the top of Nissan's priority list.

We should also draft a letter to Nissan with ALL of our names and VIN#s and maybe we can start showing Nissan that we are organizing and getting ready for a "Class Action".

I think Nissan is tring to dodge this issue by keeping us un-informed and divided. Strength is in our numbers. I currently have 10,000 miles on my car and my car went in the shop yesterday.

If you are interested in doing this contact me at [email protected]

Ian
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Old 03-26-2003, 09:38 AM
  #149  
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WEll does anyone know what the individual left and right toe is supposed to be on the car instead of the "total toe"? My car is within specs and the feathering is still occuring, NIssan will not take care of the problem. STeven is well aware that even if the car is within specification it will Feather, I let him know about the change in Part Numbers on the springs(December). He says he will look into it.
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Old 03-26-2003, 10:04 AM
  #150  
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Default Re: Re: Tire exchange

Originally posted by Boomer
Rob, Jim, it sounds like Nissan Japan is taking an interest. Thats good, IMO, because they can eliminate NNA's stalling on repairs by authorizing the replacement tires/springs/etc be fitted to our cars. Maybe this the the logjam breaker and Nissan Japan can get their engineering act together on our cars and get us the parts we need. Hope so.
Guys,

I gotta believe the fix will need to be engineered back in Japan first and then hopefully we'll get a fix to both the bounce & feathering. I can't believe people are already selling cars. I still like my Z in spite of the bounce. The aftermarket has already fixed the bounce (NISMO & Eibach). The feathering in my mind is a lack of adjustment in the front suspension. I know Dwnshift and other racers have already identified and have parts to allow the adjustment needed. Steven at NNA is a nice guy but he can't reengineer something overnight. Hopefully a pattern of problems will be looked by Nissan Japan/NNA. I would like to see Nissan do something like Mazda did with the Miata HP fiasco and give early owners a credit towards NISMO parts or other Nissan stuff as well as fixing the problems. Just my opinion........

Last edited by jmark; 03-26-2003 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 03-26-2003, 10:35 AM
  #151  
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Default Re: Re: Re: Tire exchange

Originally posted by jmark
Guys,

I gotta believe the fix will need to be engineered back in Japan first and then hopefully we'll get a fix to both the bounce & feathering. I can't believe people are already selling cars. I still like my Z in spite of the bounce. The aftermarket has already fixed the bounce (NISMO & Eibach). The feathering in my mind is a lack of adjustment in the front suspension. I know Dwnshift and other racers have already identified and have parts to allow the adjustment needed. Steven at NNA is a nice guy but he can't reengineer something overnight. Hopefully a pattern of problems will be looked by Nissan Japan/NNA. I would like to see Nissan do something like Mazda did with the Miata HP fiasco and give early owners a credit towards NISMO parts or other Nissan stuff as well as fixing the problems. Just my opinion........
Mark, I know the fix will need to be done in Japan. What I don't know is what the procedure will be. How will it be done? Who will do it? How long will it take? I am asking business questions, not a fan question. I paid $35K for this car, I expect it to work properly and owners who are selling their cars now over the unsolved problems are costing me money if the resale on my car goes down, and it will.

Nissan needs to solve these problems ASAP or face a massive loss of revenue. I own 2 Nissans, the Z and a 99 Maxima worth over $50,000. I will not sit and watch the values of both cars go down, I will trade both cars for a Nissan competitor. This is just business and if Nissan doesn't understand this basic tenet, they will not recover and will be absorbed by a company who better understands business.

What is the procedure for resolution of these problems? Someone in authority needs to decide this and see it is done. Its business and nothing else. I want to know this is being done and I want to know it now. What is NNA doing about this? I haven't found one statement to tell me this is being done. A crisis in confidence is building in me right now and I need the answers NOW.

Last edited by Boomer; 03-26-2003 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 03-26-2003, 10:49 AM
  #152  
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Default I am starting a petition

QUOTE: Lastly, my NNA contact (Steven) has been really nice and helpful. You have to understand they aren't engineers. In fact, he wishes he could afford a new Z... He has been great and will swap my tires but also listened and understands my concern. I don't want to ruin another set of tires, regardless of who pays for them. I'm more interested in figuring this out and fixing it. Then I'll get a set of tires I really want (they won't be Bridgestone). So thanks to Steve (if you are reading) and keep up the good work. END QUOTE

Steven's last name is Lam.

I just spoke to Michelle at NNA and filed yet another case about the tire feathering issue, because she told me that she did NOT see one in my file that I had made a complaint.

There are three of us so far that have banded together to make a formal complaint to Nissan. I am going to draft petition to explain our position and those of you who are interested in having your name on this letter please write me an email with your VIN#.

Power in numbers.
Ian

[email protected]
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Old 03-26-2003, 10:55 AM
  #153  
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I agree with Boomer to some extent. I believe they are engineering a solution, but I by god want someone from Nissan to tell me this and tell me an expected solution date. I have a 3 year 36,000 warranty for which I am over 1/4 through already. I am about to get new tires, hopefully, but they will be ruined also by the time I am 1/2 through my warranty, and I am not confident that I am easily going to be able to get them to give me new tires again next time, new fix or not. Sign me up Ian.
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Old 03-26-2003, 10:58 AM
  #154  
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Default Petition Letter

I am in too. Email sent with info
Ja
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Old 03-26-2003, 11:00 AM
  #155  
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I'm in Also email sent
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Old 03-26-2003, 11:01 AM
  #156  
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I'm in also. Email sent
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Old 03-26-2003, 11:14 AM
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E-Mail sent

Everyone.... please take the time to do this. They can't ignor all of us!!!

Silverstone Performance
Phoenix Az
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Old 03-26-2003, 11:19 AM
  #158  
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IAN, check your PM box
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Old 03-26-2003, 11:21 AM
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Someone should start a new thread in general for the Petition to get everyone's attention who may not be subscribed to this thread.
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Old 03-26-2003, 11:36 AM
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I'm in too...email sent.
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