Tire FEATHERING: FYI
Re: Can we come up with a fix
Originally posted by rough68fish
Alright, I have 1400 miles on my Touring edition (vin # 109310), I have been monitoring this thread and my tires.
The screwdriver depth test shows that the inside tread block is more worn than the outside tread block. But no signs of cupping yet.
I have some experience with this. My father owns a garage in PA and does quite a few alignments, I messed with my last car's suspension (a 97 Integra) and got the same problem.
I found that when I lowered the car I was able to still get it into the manufactures specs. The stock wheels and tires had no problem, When I 1 upped the wheel and tire size and went with a softer tire I got cupping on the inner tread block.
Pop said that the spec is wrong for that tire geometry and we needed to installed a camber adjustment kit to bring the top of the wheel out slightly.
I sold the Teg before I needed new tires so I never tried the fix. But boy were they humming at hiway speed.
I believe the following:
Wear on the inside tread blocks are useally caused by camber.
The camber is not adjustable on the Z, therefor they are not goign to publish a new spec with the correct setting.
Cupping caused by suspension problems (spring rates vs. shocks), in my experience causes flat spots across several tread blocks in both directions.
Cupping on each block, as I believe people are seing here is caused by not having a flat enough contact patch under load. This may be exagerated by the soft compound in these tires.
This cuppig could be caused by toe settings but is more likely caused by the camber toe combination under turning load.
The manufacture will not neccessarily fix the problem. For example I recall reading somewhere that the Acura NSX has a known issue with rear tire wear, which is corrected with an aftermarket kit yet Acura continues to manufacture the "defective version" of the NSX and sell them for $80K.
Therefore it would be likely that we could fix the problem if it was possible to really align the car.
The aftermarket will have to get there eventually as people lower their cars so can't we get someone like Stillen to help find a fix?
Unfortunantly I live several hours from home now so I don't have the luxury of letting pop tear into the car and see what he can come up with, so does anyone have ideas on how to make the caster and camber adjustable or better yet aftermarket contacts?
Alright, I have 1400 miles on my Touring edition (vin # 109310), I have been monitoring this thread and my tires.
The screwdriver depth test shows that the inside tread block is more worn than the outside tread block. But no signs of cupping yet.
I have some experience with this. My father owns a garage in PA and does quite a few alignments, I messed with my last car's suspension (a 97 Integra) and got the same problem.
I found that when I lowered the car I was able to still get it into the manufactures specs. The stock wheels and tires had no problem, When I 1 upped the wheel and tire size and went with a softer tire I got cupping on the inner tread block.
Pop said that the spec is wrong for that tire geometry and we needed to installed a camber adjustment kit to bring the top of the wheel out slightly.
I sold the Teg before I needed new tires so I never tried the fix. But boy were they humming at hiway speed.
I believe the following:
Wear on the inside tread blocks are useally caused by camber.
The camber is not adjustable on the Z, therefor they are not goign to publish a new spec with the correct setting.
Cupping caused by suspension problems (spring rates vs. shocks), in my experience causes flat spots across several tread blocks in both directions.
Cupping on each block, as I believe people are seing here is caused by not having a flat enough contact patch under load. This may be exagerated by the soft compound in these tires.
This cuppig could be caused by toe settings but is more likely caused by the camber toe combination under turning load.
The manufacture will not neccessarily fix the problem. For example I recall reading somewhere that the Acura NSX has a known issue with rear tire wear, which is corrected with an aftermarket kit yet Acura continues to manufacture the "defective version" of the NSX and sell them for $80K.
Therefore it would be likely that we could fix the problem if it was possible to really align the car.
The aftermarket will have to get there eventually as people lower their cars so can't we get someone like Stillen to help find a fix?
Unfortunantly I live several hours from home now so I don't have the luxury of letting pop tear into the car and see what he can come up with, so does anyone have ideas on how to make the caster and camber adjustable or better yet aftermarket contacts?
btw, the tire problem on the NSXs were only VERY early models and has since been fixed.
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Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Arizona
Re: OEM tire wear at 10.3K miles
WHOA!! How many miles on that left front tire?? Mine went to 15k and never approached that level of feathering b4 they (Nissan) replaced them and they were very noisy. I cannot begin to think how far out your alignment is on that one. Regards, Jim
Originally posted by ChinaClipper
To further illustrate tire wear pattern, here is my left front.
To further illustrate tire wear pattern, here is my left front.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,399
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Re: OEM tire wear at 10.3K miles
Originally posted by ChinaClipper
To further illustrate tire wear pattern, here is my left front.
To further illustrate tire wear pattern, here is my left front.
Why can't I delete this?
Last edited by Boomer; Mar 30, 2003 at 08:07 PM.
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8
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From: Florida
Hi guys, im a newb to this forum, and I have page by page about problems with this car. I myself have been thinking of purchasing a 350z DB enthusiast model. I noticed that alot of people having the feathering issue, own early model Z's. and I have read about the tranny issues as well, but the numbers don't seem too alarming. After reading all these posts, im a little more sketchy about buying the Z. you guys think buying a Z now would be safe?
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 10
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From: Frederick, MD
Please post the alignment specs
I sent my dad the picture posted by ChinaClipper. My dad would like to know if anyone has the following:
The ORIGINAL manufactures reccomended alignment spec. (His machine doesn't have updates for 2003 yet.)
The new spec in the TSB.
The actual alignment numbers of ChinaClipper car if possible.
P.S. Does the S-Tune kit allow you to adjust the Camber?
The ORIGINAL manufactures reccomended alignment spec. (His machine doesn't have updates for 2003 yet.)
The new spec in the TSB.
The actual alignment numbers of ChinaClipper car if possible.
P.S. Does the S-Tune kit allow you to adjust the Camber?
Last edited by rough68fish; Mar 31, 2003 at 04:11 AM.
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 59
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From: Apex, NC
Originally posted by oSoFastFerU
Hi guys, im a newb to this forum, and I have page by page about problems with this car. I myself have been thinking of purchasing a 350z DB enthusiast model. I noticed that alot of people having the feathering issue, own early model Z's. and I have read about the tranny issues as well, but the numbers don't seem too alarming. After reading all these posts, im a little more sketchy about buying the Z. you guys think buying a Z now would be safe?
Hi guys, im a newb to this forum, and I have page by page about problems with this car. I myself have been thinking of purchasing a 350z DB enthusiast model. I noticed that alot of people having the feathering issue, own early model Z's. and I have read about the tranny issues as well, but the numbers don't seem too alarming. After reading all these posts, im a little more sketchy about buying the Z. you guys think buying a Z now would be safe?
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 10
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From: Frederick, MD
Bouncy ride and Tire Feathering
I believe tire feathering or flat spotting from a "bouncy ride" is caused from the tire not maintaining contact with the ground.
If you feel that the Z is too bouncy and it is causing the tire feather, have someone drive your Z down a particularly bad road and ride in a car next to them. Do you see the tire bouncing in the wheel well?
Although the suspension tuning may not be perfect I don't think it's the problem, but the roads are pretty good here so it's hard to tell.
If you feel that the Z is too bouncy and it is causing the tire feather, have someone drive your Z down a particularly bad road and ride in a car next to them. Do you see the tire bouncing in the wheel well?
Although the suspension tuning may not be perfect I don't think it's the problem, but the roads are pretty good here so it's hard to tell.
Re: alignment specs
Originally posted by rough68fish
I sent my dad the picture posted by ChinaClipper. My dad would like to know if anyone has the following:
The ORIGINAL manufactures reccomended alignment spec. (His machine doesn't have updates for 2003 yet.)
The new spec in the TSB.
The actual alignment numbers of ChinaClipper car if possible.
P.S. Does the S-Tune kit allow you to adjust the Camber?
I sent my dad the picture posted by ChinaClipper. My dad would like to know if anyone has the following:
The ORIGINAL manufactures reccomended alignment spec. (His machine doesn't have updates for 2003 yet.)
The new spec in the TSB.
The actual alignment numbers of ChinaClipper car if possible.
P.S. Does the S-Tune kit allow you to adjust the Camber?
Camber -
Min = -1 degree 20' (-1.33 degrees)
Norm = -0 degree 35' (-0.58 degrees)
Max = 0 degree 10' (0.17 degrees)
Caster -
Min = -7 degree 35' (7.58 degrees)
Norm = -8 degree 10' (8.17 degrees)
Max = 8 degree 55' (8.92 degrees)
Left and Right distance = 45' (.75 degrees)
Toe In -
Min = 0 mm (0 in)
Norm = 1 mm (0.4 in)
Max = 2mm (0.8 in)
I do not have the TSB nor has anyone posted it yet to this site so I do not know if the spec is changed - I have not heard that it has.
My car has not been aligned, but I anticipate it will go in for alignment next week.
I do not kn ow if the S-tune allows camber adjustment.
Hope this is of some help.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 48
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From: OK
Re: Re: alignment specs
Originally posted by ChinaClipper
Original manufacturers alignment spec:
Camber -
Min = -1 degree 20' (-1.33 degrees)
Norm = -0 degree 35' (-0.58 degrees)
Max = 0 degree 10' (0.17 degrees)
Caster -
Min = -7 degree 35' (7.58 degrees)
Norm = -8 degree 10' (8.17 degrees)
Max = 8 degree 55' (8.92 degrees)
Left and Right distance = 45' (.75 degrees)
Toe In -
Min = 0 mm (0 in)
Norm = 1 mm (0.4 in)
Max = 2mm (0.8 in)
I do not have the TSB nor has anyone posted it yet to this site so I do not know if the spec is changed - I have not heard that it has.
My car has not been aligned, but I anticipate it will go in for alignment next week.
I do not kn ow if the S-tune allows camber adjustment.
Hope this is of some help.
Original manufacturers alignment spec:
Camber -
Min = -1 degree 20' (-1.33 degrees)
Norm = -0 degree 35' (-0.58 degrees)
Max = 0 degree 10' (0.17 degrees)
Caster -
Min = -7 degree 35' (7.58 degrees)
Norm = -8 degree 10' (8.17 degrees)
Max = 8 degree 55' (8.92 degrees)
Left and Right distance = 45' (.75 degrees)
Toe In -
Min = 0 mm (0 in)
Norm = 1 mm (0.4 in)
Max = 2mm (0.8 in)
I do not have the TSB nor has anyone posted it yet to this site so I do not know if the spec is changed - I have not heard that it has.
My car has not been aligned, but I anticipate it will go in for alignment next week.
I do not kn ow if the S-tune allows camber adjustment.
Hope this is of some help.
Wife's new Z was aligned at the dealer upon arrival. Their spec's are below, in degrees (directly off the sheet I was given showing the Specified Range and Actual reading)
Camber: -1.9 to -0.4
Caster: 0.8 to 17.2
Toe: 0.02 to 0.06
Cross Camber: -0.8 to 0.8
Corss Caster: -0.8 to 0.8
Total Toe: 0.04 to 0.12
These seem to conflict with the above spec's. Any idea??
Dealer told me that Nissan was "giving" one free alignment. I had asked for this alignment upon arrival as part of the dealer prep. The service manager said that his feeling was that many cars were badly aligned due to the trip over and the tie-down method used.
Now I read from several posts that feathering issue returned for many even after alignment on new tires. Thoughts range from camber problem to mismatch of suspension parts. Haven't noticed any real bad "bounce" as many have identified - just a regular "stiff" ride that I have had in several cars with very tight suspensions. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, and I may not even know what I am looking for.
I'll be watching the tires closely - at this time she only had 1300 miles on the car but there is no sign of feathering.
DOH
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 159
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From: Alabama
Well, I went back for an alignment for a second time today (no-charge). Vehicle is still aligned within specs and feathering is continuing. Range values off the sheet:
Camber: 0.4 to -1.6
Caster: 7.4 to 8.9
Toe: 0.06 to 0.15
Total Toe: 0.12 to 0.30
Steer Ahead: -0.05 to 0.05
These match fairly with the service manual.
Enforcer
Camber: 0.4 to -1.6
Caster: 7.4 to 8.9
Toe: 0.06 to 0.15
Total Toe: 0.12 to 0.30
Steer Ahead: -0.05 to 0.05
These match fairly with the service manual.
Enforcer
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 10
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From: Frederick, MD
ChinaClipper source and Enforcer's Actuals
ChinaClipper are your numbers from the service manual?
Enforcer, could you post your actuals or even better just scan in the printout
Pop's response to ChinaClippers picture,
"looks like a serious toe problem -camber will wear on the inside like that but won't cup, unless something is worn. hope that's not yours"
If I can get caught up at work this week I'm thinking of heading home and spending some time on the alignment rack.
Enforcer, could you post your actuals or even better just scan in the printout
Pop's response to ChinaClippers picture,
"looks like a serious toe problem -camber will wear on the inside like that but won't cup, unless something is worn. hope that's not yours"
If I can get caught up at work this week I'm thinking of heading home and spending some time on the alignment rack.
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 10
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From: Frederick, MD
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/
I was wondering if the people that are having the problems are aware of the NHTSA defect investigation department
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: Frederick, MD
Anyone in N MD or W. PA with "feathering"
My dad is very concerned about liability but I am trying to talk him into letting me bring someone's car in also that has the problem and look at it.
Is there anyone in Western or Central PA or Northern MD that is seeing feathering and willing to make a road trip with me this weekend?
Provided Pop agrees.
Is there anyone in Western or Central PA or Northern MD that is seeing feathering and willing to make a road trip with me this weekend?
Provided Pop agrees.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
From: OK
Originally posted by Enforcer
Well, I went back for an alignment for a second time today (no-charge). Vehicle is still aligned within specs and feathering is continuing. Range values off the sheet:
Camber: 0.4 to -1.6
Caster: 7.4 to 8.9
Toe: 0.06 to 0.15
Total Toe: 0.12 to 0.30
Steer Ahead: -0.05 to 0.05
These match fairly with the service manual.
Enforcer
Well, I went back for an alignment for a second time today (no-charge). Vehicle is still aligned within specs and feathering is continuing. Range values off the sheet:
Camber: 0.4 to -1.6
Caster: 7.4 to 8.9
Toe: 0.06 to 0.15
Total Toe: 0.12 to 0.30
Steer Ahead: -0.05 to 0.05
These match fairly with the service manual.
Enforcer
The difference in spec's here is amazing. If I use yours, my toe could be WAY out of spec compared to my dealer's specs. I challenged my dealer with the specs that were posted and he said the ones they were using were the "latest" - his word. Again, his Toe Spec was .02 to .06 vs these as .06 to .15 - input from anyone??
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 48
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From: OK
Originally posted by RobJames
New tires yesterday. Ah, the sounds of silence. They did a four wheel alignment. I don't know what the specs are at. I guess I'll see if it works in a few thousand miles.
New tires yesterday. Ah, the sounds of silence. They did a four wheel alignment. I don't know what the specs are at. I guess I'll see if it works in a few thousand miles.
Noticed you are in Tulsa, OK - so are we. My wife doesn't get on this site (she signed up but never posted, so I cannot change the logon on this computer).
Anyway, I was wondering which dealer you use. Wife bought her PPW Frost Touring AT from Nelson and Tracy, the service manager, has been great answering my questions. It would be great to know what specs your dealer is using if it isn't Nelson.
DOH
Re: ChinaClipper source
Originally posted by rough68fish
ChinaClipper are your numbers from the service manual?
ChinaClipper are your numbers from the service manual?
Thanks!