Tire FEATHERING: FYI
03-28-2003, 01:23 PM
#201
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UPDATE
Guys and Gals,
Ok, my SM called me back today and has some news for me and all of you via me.
He has ordered me new front tires and they should be in on Wednesday. A tech from Hunter has been notified of this issue and sent pictures and my before and after specs. (so you know, and I will tell the SM, my feathering got worse after the alignment plus the car pulls a little right). They operate and program the balancing/alignment machine for the shop. When my tires come in, the tech and the SM are going to inspect the machine and my alignment on my car. Based on there review of my old tires, they are going to set the alignment for "optimal" to hopefully remove this feathering problem. Per my question to the SM, he says there are ways to adjust the suspension to possibly reduce the camber from a -1.2 degees and the toe settings. Per him, -1.2 degrees is aggressive and is part of the problem. Could be as little of a reduction of .25-.50 to alleviate and or cure the problem. I am not that technical but he assures me this can be done even though the book says the toe is the only adjustment on the fronts.
His experince at Mitsu gives me some hope.
Once the tires are on and alignment adjusted to a new spec, I am going to go back every two weeks to have the tires miked for tread wear patterns at the dealer. I drive 60 miles on my commute plus do some driving for work so we should see some results rather quickly. Might have to go to Bosier City, also.
While I am not that experienced, I want feedback from you. I will call on Droid and others to test my car to see if the handling or performance is sacrificed by this set up. For me, an occasional "racer", this is my daily driver and I prefer not replacing the tires every 5000 miles over stellar performance.
More info. He has informed the Dallas area DSM about this problem and has called NNA. The DSM has authorized this fix and is calling on other DSM's for feedback and or options.
Finally, he has told me that the first try may not be the cure but he will continue to work with the problem even if I need more tires.
Ok, my SM called me back today and has some news for me and all of you via me.
He has ordered me new front tires and they should be in on Wednesday. A tech from Hunter has been notified of this issue and sent pictures and my before and after specs. (so you know, and I will tell the SM, my feathering got worse after the alignment plus the car pulls a little right). They operate and program the balancing/alignment machine for the shop. When my tires come in, the tech and the SM are going to inspect the machine and my alignment on my car. Based on there review of my old tires, they are going to set the alignment for "optimal" to hopefully remove this feathering problem. Per my question to the SM, he says there are ways to adjust the suspension to possibly reduce the camber from a -1.2 degees and the toe settings. Per him, -1.2 degrees is aggressive and is part of the problem. Could be as little of a reduction of .25-.50 to alleviate and or cure the problem. I am not that technical but he assures me this can be done even though the book says the toe is the only adjustment on the fronts.
His experince at Mitsu gives me some hope.
Once the tires are on and alignment adjusted to a new spec, I am going to go back every two weeks to have the tires miked for tread wear patterns at the dealer. I drive 60 miles on my commute plus do some driving for work so we should see some results rather quickly. Might have to go to Bosier City, also.
While I am not that experienced, I want feedback from you. I will call on Droid and others to test my car to see if the handling or performance is sacrificed by this set up. For me, an occasional "racer", this is my daily driver and I prefer not replacing the tires every 5000 miles over stellar performance.
More info. He has informed the Dallas area DSM about this problem and has called NNA. The DSM has authorized this fix and is calling on other DSM's for feedback and or options.
Finally, he has told me that the first try may not be the cure but he will continue to work with the problem even if I need more tires.
03-28-2003, 01:35 PM
#202
Re: Re: Spring Information from Dealer Parts Dept.
Originally posted by Enforcer
I gave these to Steve this morning and he just called me back. He talked to engineering. Engineering says the spring part number changes are not related to this problem or any problem. They say most likely supply issue of some kind.
He also said engineering stated they are aware of the problem but there is no fix yet, they say be patient.
This is going to take some time, I wouldn't expect anything real soon, but it's clear to me the engineers are aware the alignment tire swap fix...isn't, and are working on one. Now I know that doesn't fix the problem for all of us right now, but it is a step in the right direction.
Keep the pressure on, when the engineers do come up with a fix, if they haven't already, it's going to cause headaches with management ( IE $$). There may be more than one fix they explore and ultimately cost will be a factor. And they still may not have a recall. Companies avoid these like the plague. So don't count on it.
As many have stated already, call Steve and start a case if you haven't already. He said he is working hundreds of cases (not just this problem and I suspect not just the Z) but be patient, he will call back.
Enforcer
I gave these to Steve this morning and he just called me back. He talked to engineering. Engineering says the spring part number changes are not related to this problem or any problem. They say most likely supply issue of some kind.
He also said engineering stated they are aware of the problem but there is no fix yet, they say be patient.
This is going to take some time, I wouldn't expect anything real soon, but it's clear to me the engineers are aware the alignment tire swap fix...isn't, and are working on one. Now I know that doesn't fix the problem for all of us right now, but it is a step in the right direction.
Keep the pressure on, when the engineers do come up with a fix, if they haven't already, it's going to cause headaches with management ( IE $$). There may be more than one fix they explore and ultimately cost will be a factor. And they still may not have a recall. Companies avoid these like the plague. So don't count on it.
As many have stated already, call Steve and start a case if you haven't already. He said he is working hundreds of cases (not just this problem and I suspect not just the Z) but be patient, he will call back.
Enforcer
03-28-2003, 01:43 PM
#203
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Per my SM, it is the feathering. I asked him if the shock/spring combo is at fault and he said no but would investigate on mine when changing the tires. It is his opinion at this time that the s/s combo is not the cause but the camber/toe combo. At this time, my experiment is camber and toe adjustments.
03-28-2003, 02:30 PM
#204
Re: UPDATE
Originally posted by ezchief
Guys and Gals,
Ok, my SM called me back today and has some news for me and all of you via me.
He has ordered me new front tires and they should be in on Wednesday. A tech from Hunter has been notified of this issue and sent pictures and my before and after specs. (so you know, and I will tell the SM, my feathering got worse after the alignment plus the car pulls a little right). They operate and program the balancing/alignment machine for the shop. When my tires come in, the tech and the SM are going to inspect the machine and my alignment on my car. Based on there review of my old tires, they are going to set the alignment for "optimal" to hopefully remove this feathering problem. Per my question to the SM, he says there are ways to adjust the suspension to possibly reduce the camber from a -1.2 degees and the toe settings. Per him, -1.2 degrees is aggressive and is part of the problem. Could be as little of a reduction of .25-.50 to alleviate and or cure the problem. I am not that technical but he assures me this can be done even though the book says the toe is the only adjustment on the fronts.
His experince at Mitsu gives me some hope.
Once the tires are on and alignment adjusted to a new spec, I am going to go back every two weeks to have the tires miked for tread wear patterns at the dealer. I drive 60 miles on my commute plus do some driving for work so we should see some results rather quickly. Might have to go to Bosier City, also.
While I am not that experienced, I want feedback from you. I will call on Droid and others to test my car to see if the handling or performance is sacrificed by this set up. For me, an occasional "racer", this is my daily driver and I prefer not replacing the tires every 5000 miles over stellar performance.
More info. He has informed the Dallas area DSM about this problem and has called NNA. The DSM has authorized this fix and is calling on other DSM's for feedback and or options.
Finally, he has told me that the first try may not be the cure but he will continue to work with the problem even if I need more tires.
Guys and Gals,
Ok, my SM called me back today and has some news for me and all of you via me.
He has ordered me new front tires and they should be in on Wednesday. A tech from Hunter has been notified of this issue and sent pictures and my before and after specs. (so you know, and I will tell the SM, my feathering got worse after the alignment plus the car pulls a little right). They operate and program the balancing/alignment machine for the shop. When my tires come in, the tech and the SM are going to inspect the machine and my alignment on my car. Based on there review of my old tires, they are going to set the alignment for "optimal" to hopefully remove this feathering problem. Per my question to the SM, he says there are ways to adjust the suspension to possibly reduce the camber from a -1.2 degees and the toe settings. Per him, -1.2 degrees is aggressive and is part of the problem. Could be as little of a reduction of .25-.50 to alleviate and or cure the problem. I am not that technical but he assures me this can be done even though the book says the toe is the only adjustment on the fronts.
His experince at Mitsu gives me some hope.
Once the tires are on and alignment adjusted to a new spec, I am going to go back every two weeks to have the tires miked for tread wear patterns at the dealer. I drive 60 miles on my commute plus do some driving for work so we should see some results rather quickly. Might have to go to Bosier City, also.
While I am not that experienced, I want feedback from you. I will call on Droid and others to test my car to see if the handling or performance is sacrificed by this set up. For me, an occasional "racer", this is my daily driver and I prefer not replacing the tires every 5000 miles over stellar performance.
More info. He has informed the Dallas area DSM about this problem and has called NNA. The DSM has authorized this fix and is calling on other DSM's for feedback and or options.
Finally, he has told me that the first try may not be the cure but he will continue to work with the problem even if I need more tires.
03-28-2003, 03:50 PM
#205
Originally posted by ezchief
Per my SM, it is the feathering. I asked him if the shock/spring combo is at fault and he said no but would investigate on mine when changing the tires. It is his opinion at this time that the s/s combo is not the cause but the camber/toe combo. At this time, my experiment is camber and toe adjustments.
Per my SM, it is the feathering. I asked him if the shock/spring combo is at fault and he said no but would investigate on mine when changing the tires. It is his opinion at this time that the s/s combo is not the cause but the camber/toe combo. At this time, my experiment is camber and toe adjustments.
03-28-2003, 03:50 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Spring Information from Dealer Parts Dept.
Originally posted by jmark
The problem the engineers are aware of is the bounce or feathering or both...........
The problem the engineers are aware of is the bounce or feathering or both...........
Feathering.Enforcer
03-28-2003, 04:01 PM
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Re: Re: UPDATE
Originally posted by rodH
well great, I haev an appoint with my dealer for Tues to get teh align done, BUT I don't want them to make it worse, what to do????
well great, I haev an appoint with my dealer for Tues to get teh align done, BUT I don't want them to make it worse, what to do????
Enforcer
03-28-2003, 04:16 PM
#208
Re: Re: Re: UPDATE
Originally posted by Enforcer
Well, it won't fix the feathering, it might make it worse, but it might fix the pull if it's alignment induced. In my case the feathering didn't get worse, it just continued and I still don't have any pull, never did. I would go and have it at least checked because there is a possibility your pull is an alignment problem. I'm going in again on Monday to check the alignment and redo if necessary.
Enforcer
Well, it won't fix the feathering, it might make it worse, but it might fix the pull if it's alignment induced. In my case the feathering didn't get worse, it just continued and I still don't have any pull, never did. I would go and have it at least checked because there is a possibility your pull is an alignment problem. I'm going in again on Monday to check the alignment and redo if necessary.
Enforcer
03-28-2003, 06:48 PM
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Feathering/Bounce
OK!! We have a response and a test beginning on our feathering problem. I will be following this with great interest, as should we all.
The springs part number changes weren't related to the Feathering OR the Bounce, huh? Good, if its correct, then we have eliminated one possible problem, but more importantly, NNA is LOOKING at our problems. Now, they need to shift some of their resources from Marketing(the pathetic 040s poster) and get down to SERVICE.
Somebody at NNA now knows the early cars are flawed and they need to get the problems FIXED or the bloom will be off the rose and everybody's Car of the Year will be tomorrows POS.
I wouldn't feel secure about the shocks/springs not being an issue, I still think they may be a factor with the feathering and we damn well know they are the source of the Bounce which still needs to be addressed by Nissan. Too much bouncing over rough roads can cause a loss of control and an possible accident.
An Oversprung and Underdamped chassis is not what you want in a high-powered sports car like the Z. NNA needs to re-examine their performance before an accident occurs. Their engineers should be notified for a re-evaluation.
Boomer--don't let up, continue calling NNA when you have a problem the dealer can't or won't rectify. My calls continue to be unanswered by NNA, but, I will continue to call, often.
The springs part number changes weren't related to the Feathering OR the Bounce, huh? Good, if its correct, then we have eliminated one possible problem, but more importantly, NNA is LOOKING at our problems. Now, they need to shift some of their resources from Marketing(the pathetic 040s poster) and get down to SERVICE.
Somebody at NNA now knows the early cars are flawed and they need to get the problems FIXED or the bloom will be off the rose and everybody's Car of the Year will be tomorrows POS.
I wouldn't feel secure about the shocks/springs not being an issue, I still think they may be a factor with the feathering and we damn well know they are the source of the Bounce which still needs to be addressed by Nissan. Too much bouncing over rough roads can cause a loss of control and an possible accident.
An Oversprung and Underdamped chassis is not what you want in a high-powered sports car like the Z. NNA needs to re-examine their performance before an accident occurs. Their engineers should be notified for a re-evaluation.
Boomer--don't let up, continue calling NNA when you have a problem the dealer can't or won't rectify. My calls continue to be unanswered by NNA, but, I will continue to call, often.
03-28-2003, 07:30 PM
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ezchief,
I'm anxious to hear how it turns out. If I remember correctly we go to the same dealership. I should be going in for my two new front tires next week as well.
Keep us informed!
I'm anxious to hear how it turns out. If I remember correctly we go to the same dealership. I should be going in for my two new front tires next week as well.
Keep us informed!
03-29-2003, 05:33 AM
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I have contacted NNA and am going to take my car to the dealer next week. Obviously, this is not an isolated incident and it seems that NNA is aware of the problem from a few of us. I have two questions:
1. What should I DEMAND that NNA and/or dealer do to currently fix the problem? Should I request new tires (I do not feel I should pay for new tires when this is a known issue, but then again
i know the same problem will arise again in 5-6000 miles).
2. Does anyonoe know if the Infinity G35 coupe share the same front end as the 350Z? Are they having the same problems as the Z??
1. What should I DEMAND that NNA and/or dealer do to currently fix the problem? Should I request new tires (I do not feel I should pay for new tires when this is a known issue, but then again
i know the same problem will arise again in 5-6000 miles).
2. Does anyonoe know if the Infinity G35 coupe share the same front end as the 350Z? Are they having the same problems as the Z??
03-29-2003, 11:29 AM
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Dbltrack, it really up to your service manager.. It will not make a bit of difference if you demand new tires and even if you go through STeven at NNA he will simply ignore or not admit it is a common problem on the Z. STeven cannot make the dealership give you new tires, he can't even confirm to your service manager that NIssan will pay for the tires once there replaced. You might as well just talk to the wall. Either way the dealership can screw you.
#1 TAke for instance, My alignment is within NIssan specification.. alright so Nissan(STeven) and Service manager pushes it off as a tire defect(he knows dam well it isn't but..) the car is within specs its out of there hands, deal with the tire manufacturer as Nissan does not warranty tires. So once you go to the Bridgestone dealership, they explain to you that it is a suspension problem.. alright, put it on the alignment machine and everything checks out alright.. so then Bridgestone blames it on your aggressive driving and explains how soft a compound the tire is, (YOUR SCrewed).
#2Alright your car is out of alignment(toe is way off), NIssan looks into it obviously the suspension did the wearing on the tires so they think about replacing your tires. Its not 100% sure your going to get new tires though, because of course Nissans excuse is they don't warranty alignments. You could of drove off the lot the first day of purchased and rubbed a curb or drove over a pothole causing your car to become out of alignment and your tires to wear(YOur Screwed).
I tHInk people on this board are better off taking route #2, I'm stuck in route #1 and I'm ScreweD! I wish I would of known that people in Route #2 (some) are getting there tires replaced before i took my car into service, I would of made sure it was out of alignment before i took it in. Anyways, its up to your service manager, if he wants you happy he'll get it done. Either way Nissan is no were close to a fix, and Steven at NIssan NA is just a puppet.. Were in the process of going over his head or after it
#1 TAke for instance, My alignment is within NIssan specification.. alright so Nissan(STeven) and Service manager pushes it off as a tire defect(he knows dam well it isn't but..) the car is within specs its out of there hands, deal with the tire manufacturer as Nissan does not warranty tires. So once you go to the Bridgestone dealership, they explain to you that it is a suspension problem.. alright, put it on the alignment machine and everything checks out alright.. so then Bridgestone blames it on your aggressive driving and explains how soft a compound the tire is, (YOUR SCrewed).
#2Alright your car is out of alignment(toe is way off), NIssan looks into it obviously the suspension did the wearing on the tires so they think about replacing your tires. Its not 100% sure your going to get new tires though, because of course Nissans excuse is they don't warranty alignments. You could of drove off the lot the first day of purchased and rubbed a curb or drove over a pothole causing your car to become out of alignment and your tires to wear(YOur Screwed).
I tHInk people on this board are better off taking route #2, I'm stuck in route #1 and I'm ScreweD! I wish I would of known that people in Route #2 (some) are getting there tires replaced before i took my car into service, I would of made sure it was out of alignment before i took it in. Anyways, its up to your service manager, if he wants you happy he'll get it done. Either way Nissan is no were close to a fix, and Steven at NIssan NA is just a puppet.. Were in the process of going over his head or after it
03-30-2003, 07:57 AM
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Can we come up with a fix
Alright, I have 1400 miles on my Touring edition (vin # 109310), I have been monitoring this thread and my tires.
The screwdriver depth test shows that the inside tread block is more worn than the outside tread block. But no signs of cupping yet.
I have some experience with this. My father owns a garage in PA and does quite a few alignments, I messed with my last car's suspension (a 97 Integra) and got the same problem.
I found that when I lowered the car I was able to still get it into the manufactures specs. The stock wheels and tires had no problem, When I 1 upped the wheel and tire size and went with a softer tire I got cupping on the inner tread block.
Pop said that the spec is wrong for that tire geometry and we needed to installed a camber adjustment kit to bring the top of the wheel out slightly.
I sold the Teg before I needed new tires so I never tried the fix. But boy were they humming at hiway speed.
I believe the following:
Wear on the inside tread blocks are useally caused by camber.
The camber is not adjustable on the Z, therefor they are not goign to publish a new spec with the correct setting.
Cupping caused by suspension problems (spring rates vs. shocks), in my experience causes flat spots across several tread blocks in both directions.
Cupping on each block, as I believe people are seing here is caused by not having a flat enough contact patch under load. This may be exagerated by the soft compound in these tires.
This cuppig could be caused by toe settings but is more likely caused by the camber toe combination under turning load.
The manufacture will not neccessarily fix the problem. For example I recall reading somewhere that the Acura NSX has a known issue with rear tire wear, which is corrected with an aftermarket kit yet Acura continues to manufacture the "defective version" of the NSX and sell them for $80K.
Therefore it would be likely that we could fix the problem if it was possible to really align the car.
The aftermarket will have to get there eventually as people lower their cars so can't we get someone like Stillen to help find a fix?
Unfortunantly I live several hours from home now so I don't have the luxury of letting pop tear into the car and see what he can come up with, so does anyone have ideas on how to make the caster and camber adjustable or better yet aftermarket contacts?
The screwdriver depth test shows that the inside tread block is more worn than the outside tread block. But no signs of cupping yet.
I have some experience with this. My father owns a garage in PA and does quite a few alignments, I messed with my last car's suspension (a 97 Integra) and got the same problem.
I found that when I lowered the car I was able to still get it into the manufactures specs. The stock wheels and tires had no problem, When I 1 upped the wheel and tire size and went with a softer tire I got cupping on the inner tread block.
Pop said that the spec is wrong for that tire geometry and we needed to installed a camber adjustment kit to bring the top of the wheel out slightly.
I sold the Teg before I needed new tires so I never tried the fix. But boy were they humming at hiway speed.
I believe the following:
Wear on the inside tread blocks are useally caused by camber.
The camber is not adjustable on the Z, therefor they are not goign to publish a new spec with the correct setting.
Cupping caused by suspension problems (spring rates vs. shocks), in my experience causes flat spots across several tread blocks in both directions.
Cupping on each block, as I believe people are seing here is caused by not having a flat enough contact patch under load. This may be exagerated by the soft compound in these tires.
This cuppig could be caused by toe settings but is more likely caused by the camber toe combination under turning load.
The manufacture will not neccessarily fix the problem. For example I recall reading somewhere that the Acura NSX has a known issue with rear tire wear, which is corrected with an aftermarket kit yet Acura continues to manufacture the "defective version" of the NSX and sell them for $80K.
Therefore it would be likely that we could fix the problem if it was possible to really align the car.
The aftermarket will have to get there eventually as people lower their cars so can't we get someone like Stillen to help find a fix?
Unfortunantly I live several hours from home now so I don't have the luxury of letting pop tear into the car and see what he can come up with, so does anyone have ideas on how to make the caster and camber adjustable or better yet aftermarket contacts?