s2000 vs 350z ????
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alright:
1)father-in-law, not dad.
2) i stated it's in mint condition, do you really think i'd bring it to the tracks where in order for it to get a proper launch you must jeopardize it's noticeably weak differential, which i've seen more then one wanna-be-racing-god-but-just-rice-boy person blow to pieces right at englishtown?
3) You can call me a bad driver when you can make your over-priced and completely stock car run 13.5-13.6's regularly, and occassionally as low as 13.3 (the 13.3 admittedly is with "stickier" tires and in cooler weather temps) without jeopardizing any part of the car.
Now if you'd like to put my #3 to the test, and you live in my area, i'll teach you how to drive without blowing a tranny or anything and still get great times.
I'm not comparing "best numbers" of the cars I'm stating what the average driver can attain with each car. Sure half the cars in the world would look like super cars if we posted only their best ever recorded times. But hey not all of us can have a car that's "average" 1/4 is 13.8-13.9 and only paid $10k for it now can we, i feel sorry for your checkbooks.
teknics.
edit: looked over some of the messages again and someone stated that stupid riced out "hp-per-liter" argument, trying to use it in favor of hondas, not Z's, I'd like to challenge anyone's stock hp-per-liter to my cars stock hp-per-liter, hell even if you're cars modified as long as there's no nitrous system I probably would win the hp-per-liter debate, oh and while we're at it let's bring up the power-to-weight things....again betcha i can take that category without a problem.
just admit it everyone here overpaid for their cars (Z or otherwise), whereas I hunted and found a car in great shape for $10k which will eat half of you on its worst days.
1)father-in-law, not dad.
2) i stated it's in mint condition, do you really think i'd bring it to the tracks where in order for it to get a proper launch you must jeopardize it's noticeably weak differential, which i've seen more then one wanna-be-racing-god-but-just-rice-boy person blow to pieces right at englishtown?
3) You can call me a bad driver when you can make your over-priced and completely stock car run 13.5-13.6's regularly, and occassionally as low as 13.3 (the 13.3 admittedly is with "stickier" tires and in cooler weather temps) without jeopardizing any part of the car.
Now if you'd like to put my #3 to the test, and you live in my area, i'll teach you how to drive without blowing a tranny or anything and still get great times.
I'm not comparing "best numbers" of the cars I'm stating what the average driver can attain with each car. Sure half the cars in the world would look like super cars if we posted only their best ever recorded times. But hey not all of us can have a car that's "average" 1/4 is 13.8-13.9 and only paid $10k for it now can we, i feel sorry for your checkbooks.
teknics.
edit: looked over some of the messages again and someone stated that stupid riced out "hp-per-liter" argument, trying to use it in favor of hondas, not Z's, I'd like to challenge anyone's stock hp-per-liter to my cars stock hp-per-liter, hell even if you're cars modified as long as there's no nitrous system I probably would win the hp-per-liter debate, oh and while we're at it let's bring up the power-to-weight things....again betcha i can take that category without a problem.
just admit it everyone here overpaid for their cars (Z or otherwise), whereas I hunted and found a car in great shape for $10k which will eat half of you on its worst days.
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Originally posted by teknics
2) i stated it's in mint condition, do you really think i'd bring it to the tracks where in order for it to get a proper launch you must jeopardize it's noticeably weak differential, which i've seen more then one wanna-be-racing-god-but-just-rice-boy person blow to pieces right at englishtown?
edit: looked over some of the messages again and someone stated that stupid riced out "hp-per-liter" argument, trying to use it in favor of hondas, not Z's, I'd like to challenge anyone's stock hp-per-liter to my cars stock hp-per-liter, hell even if.. blah blah blah blah....
2) i stated it's in mint condition, do you really think i'd bring it to the tracks where in order for it to get a proper launch you must jeopardize it's noticeably weak differential, which i've seen more then one wanna-be-racing-god-but-just-rice-boy person blow to pieces right at englishtown?
edit: looked over some of the messages again and someone stated that stupid riced out "hp-per-liter" argument, trying to use it in favor of hondas, not Z's, I'd like to challenge anyone's stock hp-per-liter to my cars stock hp-per-liter, hell even if.. blah blah blah blah....
Secondly, challenge stock hp/liter? The S2000 has the HIGEST specific output of any production car to date.
edit: to remove my flaming and unconstructive remarks
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Teknics, you are definitely right that an S2k can blow its diff...although it is pretty tough unless the S2k is modded (ie FI). However, one of the other reasons to launch at 6000rpm is to break the rear tires loose that way the tires take the abuse not the drivetrain.
Wisc., just to qualify...the S2k is the highest NA specific output to date. The Lotus Esprit S4 is a turbo 2.2 liter putting out 264hp matches the S2k in hp/liter.
Wisc., just to qualify...the S2k is the highest NA specific output to date. The Lotus Esprit S4 is a turbo 2.2 liter putting out 264hp matches the S2k in hp/liter.
Originally posted by honda troll
Secondly, challenge stock hp/liter? The S2000 has the HIGEST specific output of any production car to date.
Secondly, challenge stock hp/liter? The S2000 has the HIGEST specific output of any production car to date.
EDIT: The Porsche has torque to match, too, at 457 lb ft.
Last edited by MannishBoy; Dec 13, 2002 at 03:19 PM.
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hmm well then the s2k and the gt2 will be dethroned with the RX-8 which produces 250hp out of a 1.3 liter engine which is 192.3 hp/liter, which puts 120hp to shame.
my car alas isn't NA but puts out 196.15hp/liter, but granted I do agree the fact it isn't NA rules it out, my car puts out 255hp and is 1.3L, therefore producing 196.15hp/liter which easily beats the Lotus' 120 hp/liter, so perhaps my car simply has the most turbo'd hp/liter? I haven't looked into it but it's probably close.
As for you saying the diff looks brand new, either you've got a top-secret honda model, or you're full of it. I can open s2k's diff's with 10,000 or less miles and will see noticeable signs of wear. But believe me I have seen s2000's which had minimal miles on them put onto the track, have the clutch dumped, hear a huge noise, and then see shards of gears flying from behind the car, it's a rare occasion to see that from other cars but i have seen it happen, just not as frequently as i have on the s2000. Granted i'm not sure what mods were done to the ones that blew, but most looked stock and sounded stock...until of course gears went flying, then they stopped sounding like stock
.
negcamber: do not take this in a bad way but breaking the tires loose doesn't prevent diff wear because there is still the initial "bang" of the gears to start them spinning, it is this bang when repeated that can also cause failure, not just in the s2000 but in almost all other cars. I blew the diff out of my old s/c wrangler for that very reason, I had street tires on and would break them loose at green consistently finally after i dumped the clutch one day a loud clunnk came out of the back and the truck could do nothing but creep slowly.
teknics.
my car alas isn't NA but puts out 196.15hp/liter, but granted I do agree the fact it isn't NA rules it out, my car puts out 255hp and is 1.3L, therefore producing 196.15hp/liter which easily beats the Lotus' 120 hp/liter, so perhaps my car simply has the most turbo'd hp/liter? I haven't looked into it but it's probably close.
As for you saying the diff looks brand new, either you've got a top-secret honda model, or you're full of it. I can open s2k's diff's with 10,000 or less miles and will see noticeable signs of wear. But believe me I have seen s2000's which had minimal miles on them put onto the track, have the clutch dumped, hear a huge noise, and then see shards of gears flying from behind the car, it's a rare occasion to see that from other cars but i have seen it happen, just not as frequently as i have on the s2000. Granted i'm not sure what mods were done to the ones that blew, but most looked stock and sounded stock...until of course gears went flying, then they stopped sounding like stock
.negcamber: do not take this in a bad way but breaking the tires loose doesn't prevent diff wear because there is still the initial "bang" of the gears to start them spinning, it is this bang when repeated that can also cause failure, not just in the s2000 but in almost all other cars. I blew the diff out of my old s/c wrangler for that very reason, I had street tires on and would break them loose at green consistently finally after i dumped the clutch one day a loud clunnk came out of the back and the truck could do nothing but creep slowly.
teknics.
I'll admit I'm definitely not sure of the context, but none of those words means "not FI" 
In fact, when I've seen this argument from Honda guys, I normally see the qualifier "normally aspirated" with the term.
EDIT: Just googled, and this is my first hit. I'm apparently not the only one confused. Also, several other articles said stuff like "For the present, it is enough to know that no other mass-produced engine in the world attains as much specific output without turbo- or supercharging as this Honda's 120 horsepower-per-liter." Stuff like that reads to me like specific output doesn't exclude FI, since they did it specifically (pun!) outside the term.
In fact, when I've seen this argument from Honda guys, I normally see the qualifier "normally aspirated" with the term.EDIT: Just googled, and this is my first hit. I'm apparently not the only one confused. Also, several other articles said stuff like "For the present, it is enough to know that no other mass-produced engine in the world attains as much specific output without turbo- or supercharging as this Honda's 120 horsepower-per-liter." Stuff like that reads to me like specific output doesn't exclude FI, since they did it specifically (pun!) outside the term.
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Originally posted by teknics
hmm well then the s2k and the gt2 will be dethroned with the RX-8 which produces 250hp out of a 1.3 liter engine which is 192.3 hp/liter, which puts 120hp to shame.
hmm well then the s2k and the gt2 will be dethroned with the RX-8 which produces 250hp out of a 1.3 liter engine which is 192.3 hp/liter, which puts 120hp to shame.
I'll admit I'm definitely not sure of the context, but none of those words means "not FI"
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Guyz/Girlz,
not to skew the topic or anything, but I just test drove a a new BMW Z4 3.0 6 speed with Sport suspension option and was shocked at how well this thing handled and accelerated. I am strongly considering a 350Z Track for stock autox use and the $8k price difference puts a Z4 out of my reach (S2000 torqueless buzzbomb is not my cup of tea), but my conclusion is that in the right hands the Z4 is going to be as much or more competition as an S2000. IMO the 350Z has the engine torque advantage, but the Z4 may have the handling advantage since it is on the same width 18" wheels with less weight to carry. Could be really interesting this year.
350zzzzrule
not to skew the topic or anything, but I just test drove a a new BMW Z4 3.0 6 speed with Sport suspension option and was shocked at how well this thing handled and accelerated. I am strongly considering a 350Z Track for stock autox use and the $8k price difference puts a Z4 out of my reach (S2000 torqueless buzzbomb is not my cup of tea), but my conclusion is that in the right hands the Z4 is going to be as much or more competition as an S2000. IMO the 350Z has the engine torque advantage, but the Z4 may have the handling advantage since it is on the same width 18" wheels with less weight to carry. Could be really interesting this year.
350zzzzrule
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Nine times out of 10, when threads of substance are reduced to "My mag stats can beat up your Mag stats," especially when those quoted are from that fishwrap called Car and Driver (sadly a once great mag that has sunk to the level of Super Street) it's a sure signal to point my browser at something infinitely more entertaining to read, say girlswithstumps.com?
It seems to me many who quote magazine stats to prompt some imaginary cyber race are rarely seen on the track or even involved in impromptu street races. They probably figure why upset the delicate accuracy of those printed results by risking failure to live up to them.
The odds that two skilled drivers of both the Z and Honda will meet in perfect conditions with equal levels of gas in the tank, shift skills identical, etc. yada...yada...yada... are probably matched by the odds of Trent Lott appearing naked in Black Tail magazine.
There will always be varying scenarios, which makes each thread a separate adventure to read and digest. Those who reduce automobiles and the skill from those who drive them into a "why race when Car and Driver has already done it for you?" might as well be a librarian, not an enthusiast.
Not a personal attack, just a general observation.
It seems to me many who quote magazine stats to prompt some imaginary cyber race are rarely seen on the track or even involved in impromptu street races. They probably figure why upset the delicate accuracy of those printed results by risking failure to live up to them.
The odds that two skilled drivers of both the Z and Honda will meet in perfect conditions with equal levels of gas in the tank, shift skills identical, etc. yada...yada...yada... are probably matched by the odds of Trent Lott appearing naked in Black Tail magazine.
There will always be varying scenarios, which makes each thread a separate adventure to read and digest. Those who reduce automobiles and the skill from those who drive them into a "why race when Car and Driver has already done it for you?" might as well be a librarian, not an enthusiast.
Not a personal attack, just a general observation.
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From: Jacksonville
Originally posted by 350zzzzrule
Guyz/Girlz,
not to skew the topic or anything, but I just test drove a a new BMW Z4 3.0 6 speed with Sport suspension option and was shocked at how well this thing handled and accelerated. I am strongly considering a 350Z Track for stock autox use and the $8k price difference puts a Z4 out of my reach (S2000 torqueless buzzbomb is not my cup of tea), but my conclusion is that in the right hands the Z4 is going to be as much or more competition as an S2000. IMO the 350Z has the engine torque advantage, but the Z4 may have the handling advantage since it is on the same width 18" wheels with less weight to carry. Could be really interesting this year.
350zzzzrule
Guyz/Girlz,
not to skew the topic or anything, but I just test drove a a new BMW Z4 3.0 6 speed with Sport suspension option and was shocked at how well this thing handled and accelerated. I am strongly considering a 350Z Track for stock autox use and the $8k price difference puts a Z4 out of my reach (S2000 torqueless buzzbomb is not my cup of tea), but my conclusion is that in the right hands the Z4 is going to be as much or more competition as an S2000. IMO the 350Z has the engine torque advantage, but the Z4 may have the handling advantage since it is on the same width 18" wheels with less weight to carry. Could be really interesting this year.
350zzzzrule
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Originally posted by THrussT
Nine times out of 10, when threads of substance are reduced to "My mag stats can beat up your Mag stats," especially when those quoted are from that fishwrap called Car and Driver (sadly a once great mag that has sunk to the level of Super Street) it's a sure signal to point my browser at something infinitely more entertaining to read, say girlswithstumps.com?
It seems to me many who quote magazine stats to prompt some imaginary cyber race are rarely seen on the track or even involved in impromptu street races. They probably figure why upset the delicate accuracy of those printed results by risking failure to live up to them.
The odds that two skilled drivers of both the Z and Honda will meet in perfect conditions with equal levels of gas in the tank, shift skills identical, etc. yada...yada...yada... are probably matched by the odds of Trent Lott appearing naked in Black Tail magazine.
There will always be varying scenarios, which makes each thread a separate adventure to read and digest. Those who reduce automobiles and the skill from those who drive them into a "why race when Car and Driver has already done it for you?" might as well be a librarian, not an enthusiast.
Not a personal attack, just a general observation.
Nine times out of 10, when threads of substance are reduced to "My mag stats can beat up your Mag stats," especially when those quoted are from that fishwrap called Car and Driver (sadly a once great mag that has sunk to the level of Super Street) it's a sure signal to point my browser at something infinitely more entertaining to read, say girlswithstumps.com?
It seems to me many who quote magazine stats to prompt some imaginary cyber race are rarely seen on the track or even involved in impromptu street races. They probably figure why upset the delicate accuracy of those printed results by risking failure to live up to them.
The odds that two skilled drivers of both the Z and Honda will meet in perfect conditions with equal levels of gas in the tank, shift skills identical, etc. yada...yada...yada... are probably matched by the odds of Trent Lott appearing naked in Black Tail magazine.
There will always be varying scenarios, which makes each thread a separate adventure to read and digest. Those who reduce automobiles and the skill from those who drive them into a "why race when Car and Driver has already done it for you?" might as well be a librarian, not an enthusiast.
Not a personal attack, just a general observation.
teknics.
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You are missing the point!
You’ve all missed the point, It’s “The Bang for the Buck”. For thirty something grand nothing has the style, grace and fun factor and is still a daily driver. Let me see, in the northwest it starts to rain in October and doesn’t dry out till March. Convertibles and 100K plus cars don’t make a great deal of sense. I am most relaxed when I am in motion. I look for cars that can do more than go-fast in a straight line on a dry day. Hell, getting a car to stick on a dry road, my daughters can do that. Now, not having to worry about diving in the wet stuff and still be fun to drive, That’s “Bang for the Buck”.
My two cents.
My two cents.
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Re: You are missing the point!
Originally posted by racerpeck
You’ve all missed the point, It’s “The Bang for the Buck”. For thirty something grand nothing has the style, grace and fun factor and is still a daily driver. Let me see, in the northwest it starts to rain in October and doesn’t dry out till March. Convertibles and 100K plus cars don’t make a great deal of sense. I am most relaxed when I am in motion. I look for cars that can do more than go-fast in a straight line on a dry day. Hell, getting a car to stick on a dry road, my daughters can do that. Now, not having to worry about diving in the wet stuff and still be fun to drive, That’s “Bang for the Buck”.
My two cents.
You’ve all missed the point, It’s “The Bang for the Buck”. For thirty something grand nothing has the style, grace and fun factor and is still a daily driver. Let me see, in the northwest it starts to rain in October and doesn’t dry out till March. Convertibles and 100K plus cars don’t make a great deal of sense. I am most relaxed when I am in motion. I look for cars that can do more than go-fast in a straight line on a dry day. Hell, getting a car to stick on a dry road, my daughters can do that. Now, not having to worry about diving in the wet stuff and still be fun to drive, That’s “Bang for the Buck”.
My two cents.
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How do you define a car's personality? I personally define it as the give and take relationship you build with a car as you're approaching driving it at its limit. The amount of concentration and the kind of input it takes to drive the car at 10/10s is what defines character. The s2000 requires about the most concentration and focus out of pretty much any car i've ever driven(in both the dry and wet). I set up for corners in my mind nearly the same way I would do on a sport bike. To most this may make it difficult to drive, or not friendly, or not practical, or a "bad thing". To me it's become second nature and nothing but fun every second i'm behind the wheel, and all with the top down. That to me is bang for the buck. If I wanted something easier to drive, more of a tourer, more practical on an everyday level....then I definitely, in a heartbeat, woulda gotten the 350Z. Different strokes for different folks. I guess "bang" is different for everybody else, but for me traction control definitely isn't a part of it 
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Unlike many recent sportscars, which seem to place more emphasis on getting you there comfortably instead of getting you there whenver you damn well feel like it, the S2000 must seem like a four-wheeled sportbike. In other words, driven below VTEC 90% of the time, it might as well be a sexy-looking Civic, but when pushed, it requires nearly as much focus and attention as a Ducati. In other words, you can spend $15K on an Italian superbike and point it forward for everyone to see while you cruise down the boulevard but open 'er up and it becomes almost a surreal interactive experience which for the most part, is echoed with the S2000. There aren't many people (as evidenced by the sales figures for the car) that want to "roll up their sleeves" to extract the fun quotient from an automobile. Most just want to be able to go fast and look cool while doing it. For the rest of us, and I include many 350Z owners (you know who you are), getting from Point A to Point B ain't the point. Speaking only as an S2000 owner, this car really is something special and unlike anything else I've owned (and that includes probably 20+ sportscars since '82). Frankly writing, it damn sure isn't for everyone and this is why I rather fancy it falling "out of favor" with those who are always drawn to the "new kid on the block" or as Elvis Costello might say, "this year's model." It doesn't make the other choices wrong so much as it makes MY choice right. Hell, I take pride, not shame, when I point out to others that my car is a "one trick pony" but when driven as intended, is sinful. I think of it as auto ****.
Last edited by THrussT; Dec 14, 2002 at 12:36 PM.
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Re: Re: You are missing the point!
Originally posted by honda troll
I don't see the S2000 as any less driveable in snow or rain than a 350Z. Both have tires on them that are horrible for that kind of weather, and BOTH are RWD. As for convertible, the S2000 is air tight, well put together, and heats up VERY quickly. It's a very comfortable car in winter.
I don't see the S2000 as any less driveable in snow or rain than a 350Z. Both have tires on them that are horrible for that kind of weather, and BOTH are RWD. As for convertible, the S2000 is air tight, well put together, and heats up VERY quickly. It's a very comfortable car in winter.
Again your missing the point, maybe if i type really slow, Nissan have the lowest maintenance costs, the lowest percentage of warranty repairs and owners don't care about driving them in bad weather because they are their daily driver. What do you drive when you don't feel like getting your S2000 out in the rain? I love talking to honda people who walk in to dealerships, drop there shorts and pay second sticker and love it! I guess if a car is worth paying second sticker it must be superior.
Richard
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Originally posted by gastons2k
How do you define a car's personality? I personally define it as the give and take relationship you build with a car as you're approaching driving it at its limit. The amount of concentration and the kind of input it takes to drive the car at 10/10s is what defines character. The s2000 requires about the most concentration and focus out of pretty much any car i've ever driven(in both the dry and wet). I set up for corners in my mind nearly the same way I would do on a sport bike. To most this may make it difficult to drive, or not friendly, or not practical, or a "bad thing". To me it's become second nature and nothing but fun every second i'm behind the wheel, and all with the top down. That to me is bang for the buck. If I wanted something easier to drive, more of a tourer, more practical on an everyday level....then I definitely, in a heartbeat, woulda gotten the 350Z. Different strokes for different folks. I guess "bang" is different for everybody else, but for me traction control definitely isn't a part of it
How do you define a car's personality? I personally define it as the give and take relationship you build with a car as you're approaching driving it at its limit. The amount of concentration and the kind of input it takes to drive the car at 10/10s is what defines character. The s2000 requires about the most concentration and focus out of pretty much any car i've ever driven(in both the dry and wet). I set up for corners in my mind nearly the same way I would do on a sport bike. To most this may make it difficult to drive, or not friendly, or not practical, or a "bad thing". To me it's become second nature and nothing but fun every second i'm behind the wheel, and all with the top down. That to me is bang for the buck. If I wanted something easier to drive, more of a tourer, more practical on an everyday level....then I definitely, in a heartbeat, woulda gotten the 350Z. Different strokes for different folks. I guess "bang" is different for everybody else, but for me traction control definitely isn't a part of it
Richard.
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Re: Re: Re: You are missing the point!
Originally posted by racerpeck
Again your missing the point, maybe if i type really slow, Nissan have the lowest maintenance costs, the lowest percentage of warranty repairs and owners don't care about driving them in bad weather because they are their daily driver. What do you drive when you don't feel like getting your S2000 out in the rain? I love talking to honda people who walk in to dealerships, drop there shorts and pay second sticker and love it! I guess if a car is worth paying second sticker it must be superior.
Richard
Again your missing the point, maybe if i type really slow, Nissan have the lowest maintenance costs, the lowest percentage of warranty repairs and owners don't care about driving them in bad weather because they are their daily driver. What do you drive when you don't feel like getting your S2000 out in the rain? I love talking to honda people who walk in to dealerships, drop there shorts and pay second sticker and love it! I guess if a car is worth paying second sticker it must be superior.
Richard
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