NA Build: Kacz07's 2006 SS 350z RevUP
01-02-2011, 04:12 PM
#283
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01-05-2011, 03:45 PM
#284
Dropped off the SG headers yesterday. Probably won't have results on that for a couple weeks, but I'll be sure to update thread with findings.
Anyone care to take a stab at what gains we'll find?
Still don't know what I'm doing to do with the nearly brand new motor:
-sell it
-transplant into 240z
-swap heads into current setup w/ optimized machine work/components
-swap different heads onto that motor and start building it up
-save as spare for parts
Guess I'll see how the headers turn out and weight my options from there.
Anyone care to take a stab at what gains we'll find?
Still don't know what I'm doing to do with the nearly brand new motor:
-sell it
-transplant into 240z
-swap heads into current setup w/ optimized machine work/components
-swap different heads onto that motor and start building it up
-save as spare for parts
Guess I'll see how the headers turn out and weight my options from there.
Last edited by kacz07; 01-05-2011 at 03:46 PM.
01-09-2011, 12:53 AM
#287
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01-09-2011, 09:09 AM
#289
Motec? Possibly another standalone? May not work with exhaust cam phasing, but could produce big power either way. I have no idea.
Last edited by kacz07; 01-09-2011 at 09:14 AM.
01-09-2011, 11:32 AM
#290
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oh my bad I thought you we talking about a VG30DE heads, seeing those are more common, but it a completely different beast. Besides the GT300, does nissan even have a VQ30 revup engine in america?
01-09-2011, 12:28 PM
#291
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Negative. And my apologies. Nissan's Z for GT300 only used the VG30DETT from the 300ZX and the GT500 used the VK45. It was some other racing series where they used them.
01-09-2011, 02:16 PM
#292
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01-20-2011, 03:34 PM
#293
It's been nearly a year since I've got my first dyno for this engine build, so I wanted to recap a few of the things I learned along the way. The ideas are somewhat specific to NA builds (although they'd likely show good gains in the FI forum) and my observations, so take everything with a grain of salt and explore your goals with a well qualified tuner.
Intake:
Plenum volume. This seems to be the silver bullet to make high rpm power, especially without a tune or aftermarket EMS. Even an engine with stock internals can outflow the current OEM volume (with a tune). It becomes particularly easy when the exhaust has been modified and cams are installed. Based on SG's research, the heads have not appeared to be a severe restriction, if at all.
Starting with the most current example first, SexyRob's intake shootout yields the best results with his ported upper and lower plenum, among all other intake setup variables. Using a ported non-rev, he was able to shift the powerband over to the right.
FWDNissanJunky also gutted a Maxima manifold. His results are seen earlier in this thread.
Under the advice of Japanese tuners, the first intake manifold porting was performed by Z1 in Adam's 300whp build.
SG, who addressed both TB restriction and plenum volume with his Carbotron project and in-house plenum volume modifications. SG's engine brought to light the differences between the Non-rev and Rev-up lower manifolds and how they changed the powerband. His car lost a little low and mid-range power, but power after the peak was greatly extended. His results reinforce the ability of the Rev-up manifold to make power past 6300rpm, a common sticking point for NA engines using the Non-rev manifold, untuned AND tuned.
Aside from plenum volume, the next important factor appears be runner length. SG has mentioned that the Rev-up runner were almost too big and are shorter, which, again, lends itself to higher RPM power.
Through all of this testing, the Cosworth's manifold is still not completely understood, but a few people have had success with it, namely Adam@Z1 and Jmccarty. Although I have a Cosworth, I don't have much data to contribute. I do not know the plenum's complete volume, but I do remember the runners looking rather long (which would suggest powerband shifting to left, not right) w/ the CF end caps taken off. This is completely anecdotal, though.
In Adam's case, the Cosworth showed some low and mid-range losses. Adam's peak shifts over to 6600rpm, gains 10whp/10wtq from 7400rpm on to redline, set at 8400rpm. His car is, of course, modified w/ cams, which can only shift powerband IN THE PRESENCE of greater airflow, volume and speed, to supply requested airflow from the cams.
Recommended intake manifold setups should focus on increasing volume. For those not looking to modified OEM manifolds by porting, swap in a Rev-up lower collector (depending on application or where you want the power band to be, almost REQUIRED for CAMS), the largest spacer you can find ( MD 1/2", PL 3/8th", etc,), and an aftermarket upper manifold, like Crawford or APS Tall Boy, etc. (may have to switch out OEM STB or delete it completely).
Most importantly, after your setup is optimized, you must tune your car to make the most power.
Intake:
Plenum volume. This seems to be the silver bullet to make high rpm power, especially without a tune or aftermarket EMS. Even an engine with stock internals can outflow the current OEM volume (with a tune). It becomes particularly easy when the exhaust has been modified and cams are installed. Based on SG's research, the heads have not appeared to be a severe restriction, if at all.
Starting with the most current example first, SexyRob's intake shootout yields the best results with his ported upper and lower plenum, among all other intake setup variables. Using a ported non-rev, he was able to shift the powerband over to the right.
FWDNissanJunky also gutted a Maxima manifold. His results are seen earlier in this thread.
Under the advice of Japanese tuners, the first intake manifold porting was performed by Z1 in Adam's 300whp build.
SG, who addressed both TB restriction and plenum volume with his Carbotron project and in-house plenum volume modifications. SG's engine brought to light the differences between the Non-rev and Rev-up lower manifolds and how they changed the powerband. His car lost a little low and mid-range power, but power after the peak was greatly extended. His results reinforce the ability of the Rev-up manifold to make power past 6300rpm, a common sticking point for NA engines using the Non-rev manifold, untuned AND tuned.
Aside from plenum volume, the next important factor appears be runner length. SG has mentioned that the Rev-up runner were almost too big and are shorter, which, again, lends itself to higher RPM power.
Through all of this testing, the Cosworth's manifold is still not completely understood, but a few people have had success with it, namely Adam@Z1 and Jmccarty. Although I have a Cosworth, I don't have much data to contribute. I do not know the plenum's complete volume, but I do remember the runners looking rather long (which would suggest powerband shifting to left, not right) w/ the CF end caps taken off. This is completely anecdotal, though.
In Adam's case, the Cosworth showed some low and mid-range losses. Adam's peak shifts over to 6600rpm, gains 10whp/10wtq from 7400rpm on to redline, set at 8400rpm. His car is, of course, modified w/ cams, which can only shift powerband IN THE PRESENCE of greater airflow, volume and speed, to supply requested airflow from the cams.
Recommended intake manifold setups should focus on increasing volume. For those not looking to modified OEM manifolds by porting, swap in a Rev-up lower collector (depending on application or where you want the power band to be, almost REQUIRED for CAMS), the largest spacer you can find ( MD 1/2", PL 3/8th", etc,), and an aftermarket upper manifold, like Crawford or APS Tall Boy, etc. (may have to switch out OEM STB or delete it completely).
Most importantly, after your setup is optimized, you must tune your car to make the most power.
Last edited by kacz07; 01-20-2011 at 03:43 PM.
01-20-2011, 06:41 PM
#297
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Here's my question for you. Why did you build the block? Unless you were planning to rev to the moon which your car doesn't. I don't mean to come off as a dick but I see a lot of useless money spent in some of these builds. I understand that not many people actually take the time like you have, to pave the way for us. But do most people who own these parts just buy them or actually do research before they buy? I know every part I have bought or plan to buy was researched not only for my current setup but for the future as well.
Why mismatch parts? Lastly if you ponied up for the Cosworth manifold, why not buy the Jenvi ITB's? I think they were like 3k or so but when you're paying half for something you're not sure about gains on, its spending you're money blindly.
I forget who but someone had a ITB revup build on a G35 coupe and it made over 30 whp with the itb's. It's on the boards here somewhere.
The way I see it, if you're going to go all out on a N/A build. Go all out. When I get back from my deployment this year, my plan is to go all out. To include ITB's, dry sump lubrication, Nismo heads, Tomei cams, and a Nismo exhaust, with Haltech tuning and supporting mods.
Good luck to you and your build as I will definitely be feeding off information for my own. Thanks for your research as it is greatly appreciated.
Why mismatch parts? Lastly if you ponied up for the Cosworth manifold, why not buy the Jenvi ITB's? I think they were like 3k or so but when you're paying half for something you're not sure about gains on, its spending you're money blindly.
I forget who but someone had a ITB revup build on a G35 coupe and it made over 30 whp with the itb's. It's on the boards here somewhere.
The way I see it, if you're going to go all out on a N/A build. Go all out. When I get back from my deployment this year, my plan is to go all out. To include ITB's, dry sump lubrication, Nismo heads, Tomei cams, and a Nismo exhaust, with Haltech tuning and supporting mods.
Good luck to you and your build as I will definitely be feeding off information for my own. Thanks for your research as it is greatly appreciated.
Last edited by *Boose*; 01-20-2011 at 06:52 PM.
01-20-2011, 10:11 PM
#299
Boose, I built the block to attempt a high-revving high hp engine. It has turned out to be quite an expensive and ongoing process. Many of the more expensive parts were bought early on in my time of ownership, but figured that whichever way I went, I could make it work. Some of those parts and unique parts found in my engine were, at the time, untested in the NA forum.
The car doesn't rev to the moon because it doesn't make power to the moon... yet. I think unlocking the full potential of the engine will come with porting the mrev2 and adding a larger spacer, swapping in the Rev-up lower collector w/ big spacer and aftermarket upper, or try the Cosworth. It appears these are the manifolds that will plateau around 6000rpm and then open up pull from 6800rpm and on, depending on cam/header.
For now, Vince has the headers installed and will be dyno-ing with the current tune. I'm going to expect a gain of 10whp from 5000-7000 rpm, conservatively. The plot will have the same shape as my two previous. I'm not sure if I will want to optimize my current setup for the final tune.
It is going to take some discussion with JWT and SG to get this tune right, but I'd like my final setup to make the high rpm power that Adam at Z1 has seen. I am leaning towards putting the Cosworth back in there. Further down the road, a Frontier 4.08 final drive might optimize the output made in that far right powerband.
Your ideas for an engine build sound awesome. I , too, have been looking for a single pipe to catback, like the Nismo. It seems to have worked on SG's and Z1's respective setups. Had I known about the Nismo spec 2 heads, I would have most certainly strapped them on. With my setup now, the compression would be way too high because I have Wiseco's engineered to be 11.5:1 CR. Keep in mind that I still have a super fresh V2 Rev-up for a final draft.
To be honest, I see this car as a project that fills in some of the gray area of NA tuning of the VQ motor. It will continue to develop during my ownership of the car and hopefully I can share my findings with the VQ community. My Z will be around for awhile.
The car doesn't rev to the moon because it doesn't make power to the moon... yet. I think unlocking the full potential of the engine will come with porting the mrev2 and adding a larger spacer, swapping in the Rev-up lower collector w/ big spacer and aftermarket upper, or try the Cosworth. It appears these are the manifolds that will plateau around 6000rpm and then open up pull from 6800rpm and on, depending on cam/header.
For now, Vince has the headers installed and will be dyno-ing with the current tune. I'm going to expect a gain of 10whp from 5000-7000 rpm, conservatively. The plot will have the same shape as my two previous. I'm not sure if I will want to optimize my current setup for the final tune.
It is going to take some discussion with JWT and SG to get this tune right, but I'd like my final setup to make the high rpm power that Adam at Z1 has seen. I am leaning towards putting the Cosworth back in there. Further down the road, a Frontier 4.08 final drive might optimize the output made in that far right powerband.
Your ideas for an engine build sound awesome. I , too, have been looking for a single pipe to catback, like the Nismo. It seems to have worked on SG's and Z1's respective setups. Had I known about the Nismo spec 2 heads, I would have most certainly strapped them on. With my setup now, the compression would be way too high because I have Wiseco's engineered to be 11.5:1 CR. Keep in mind that I still have a super fresh V2 Rev-up for a final draft.
To be honest, I see this car as a project that fills in some of the gray area of NA tuning of the VQ motor. It will continue to develop during my ownership of the car and hopefully I can share my findings with the VQ community. My Z will be around for awhile.
Last edited by kacz07; 01-20-2011 at 10:13 PM.