Not making power - C8s/PPE etc
08-06-2019, 03:06 PM
#1
New Member
Thread Starter
Not making power - C8s/PPE etc
This is going to be a bit of a long post, apologies !
2004 350z - DE - 135k (burning a bit of oil but no streams of smoke! - full bottom end rebuild this coming winter)
I'm in the UK, using the same tuning/dyno company.
We know this dyno's numbers seem to read low but ultimately I'm not worried about that, more that improvements are made.
Over Christmas I did my timing chain (no issues before, just age/mileage) and I decided to do cams (JWT C8), springs, revup oil pump, water pump.
On the first dyno session, aside from these things done the car had stock headers, stock intake, straight pipes, cobra sports y-pipe back (2x 2.5" to 3", then 3" back).
Intake temp:10 deg (Feb)
310bhp (@fly)
(it's a comparison to my first dyno there back in Nov 2012)
WHP/AFR
The next dyno session I had added the following by this point:
Kaaz 1.5 diff
Z1 'Race' intake with the large 6" velocity stack and filter
Kinetix Velocity
75mm TB
Note - the very first runs we did had the stock intake connected, we noticed it was down and thought it was odd. So I then installed the Z1 intake but the dyno was the same.
So my initial conclusion was that the Kinetix was causing the loss but clearly started to extend the power curve further to the right. hmmm
I had assumed (with a couple of other folks) that my car could breath in properly but not out, however it doesn't seem that was really the full issue.
Intake temp: 24 deg (May)
292bhp (@ fly)
WHP/AFR
So now onto the dyno session today, ffs this is costing me a lot
PPE long tube headers (JWT advised spec on these)
HP Ignition coilpacks (decided to refresh them as I had original ones on the car still)
Fresh plugs
Motordyne XYZ-pipe with resonator (the old y-pipe was looking done)
Intake temp: 25-27 deg (Aug)
300bhp (@fly)
Pink line is from May, so you can see the PPE's have gained at the lower end
Knock detection disabled (was troubleshooting idea)
Once again comparison to Feb (WHP)
Ok, so we made the low end come up nicer now, and the curve itself looks quite nice - however, the numbers aren't, in comparison to my initial run of the year.
He also disabled the knock sensor for a couple of runs too, just in case that was causing a problem, it made a few more hp but nothing obviously wrong there.
This seems like either the Kinetix is struggling for some reason, or something else has gone wrong (ex cam chain slipped?).
Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying learning about NA but fk me what is going on !
Engine parts as of August 2019:
Uprev tune
Kinetix Velocity plenum
JWT C8 Cams & springs
Z1 3" Race intake with 6" velocity stack/large filter
Ferra stem seals
PPE Longtube headers (spec advised by JWT)
RevUp oil pump
Motordyne resonated Y-pipe
3" back Cobra Sports resonated exhaust
New waterpump/timing chain/gallery gaskets/o-rings etc
Stock heads/bottom end (rebuilding in winter)
Stock injectors
HP Ignition coils
2004 350z - DE - 135k (burning a bit of oil but no streams of smoke! - full bottom end rebuild this coming winter)
I'm in the UK, using the same tuning/dyno company.
We know this dyno's numbers seem to read low but ultimately I'm not worried about that, more that improvements are made.
Over Christmas I did my timing chain (no issues before, just age/mileage) and I decided to do cams (JWT C8), springs, revup oil pump, water pump.
On the first dyno session, aside from these things done the car had stock headers, stock intake, straight pipes, cobra sports y-pipe back (2x 2.5" to 3", then 3" back).
Intake temp:10 deg (Feb)
310bhp (@fly)
(it's a comparison to my first dyno there back in Nov 2012)
WHP/AFR
The next dyno session I had added the following by this point:
Kaaz 1.5 diff
Z1 'Race' intake with the large 6" velocity stack and filter
Kinetix Velocity
75mm TB
Note - the very first runs we did had the stock intake connected, we noticed it was down and thought it was odd. So I then installed the Z1 intake but the dyno was the same.
So my initial conclusion was that the Kinetix was causing the loss but clearly started to extend the power curve further to the right. hmmm
I had assumed (with a couple of other folks) that my car could breath in properly but not out, however it doesn't seem that was really the full issue.
Intake temp: 24 deg (May)
292bhp (@ fly)
WHP/AFR
So now onto the dyno session today, ffs this is costing me a lot
PPE long tube headers (JWT advised spec on these)
HP Ignition coilpacks (decided to refresh them as I had original ones on the car still)
Fresh plugs
Motordyne XYZ-pipe with resonator (the old y-pipe was looking done)
Intake temp: 25-27 deg (Aug)
300bhp (@fly)
Pink line is from May, so you can see the PPE's have gained at the lower end
Knock detection disabled (was troubleshooting idea)
Once again comparison to Feb (WHP)
Ok, so we made the low end come up nicer now, and the curve itself looks quite nice - however, the numbers aren't, in comparison to my initial run of the year.
He also disabled the knock sensor for a couple of runs too, just in case that was causing a problem, it made a few more hp but nothing obviously wrong there.
This seems like either the Kinetix is struggling for some reason, or something else has gone wrong (ex cam chain slipped?).
Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying learning about NA but fk me what is going on !
Engine parts as of August 2019:
Uprev tune
Kinetix Velocity plenum
JWT C8 Cams & springs
Z1 3" Race intake with 6" velocity stack/large filter
Ferra stem seals
PPE Longtube headers (spec advised by JWT)
RevUp oil pump
Motordyne resonated Y-pipe
3" back Cobra Sports resonated exhaust
New waterpump/timing chain/gallery gaskets/o-rings etc
Stock heads/bottom end (rebuilding in winter)
Stock injectors
HP Ignition coils
Last edited by RobPhoboS; 08-07-2019 at 03:27 AM.
08-06-2019, 04:58 PM
#2
I only made 288Whp with with Full engine build; 04 DE
11:1 compression
bc stg 2 cams
Stock plenum with 5/16 spacer
Injen long tube intake 4" tapers down to stock 2.5"
OBX long tube headers
OBX hks replica exhaust
Tuned with a Haltech piggyback system
When i swapped out my stock plenum with a kinetix velocity
i didn't gain much top end but gained decent mid band
A DE is very expensive to make N/A power. With that being said i would think you should be 265-270whp.
What is your compression, leak down numbers, spark plug gap, timing numbers, VVT tuned correctly, Oct of fuel?
A lot of variables.
11:1 compression
bc stg 2 cams
Stock plenum with 5/16 spacer
Injen long tube intake 4" tapers down to stock 2.5"
OBX long tube headers
OBX hks replica exhaust
Tuned with a Haltech piggyback system
When i swapped out my stock plenum with a kinetix velocity
i didn't gain much top end but gained decent mid band
A DE is very expensive to make N/A power. With that being said i would think you should be 265-270whp.
What is your compression, leak down numbers, spark plug gap, timing numbers, VVT tuned correctly, Oct of fuel?
A lot of variables.
08-07-2019, 02:25 AM
#4
New Member
Thread Starter
I've not done a leak down test, I'll grab a kit to try it.
I didn't measure the spark plug gap, they're the standard ones recommend in the FSM (NGK PLFR5A-11).
I'll have to ask about the timing numbers, as I can only see a limited timing adv on my phone app.
I've always used Shell V-power (99 RON octane, which is about 94 AKI octane for you guys I believe).
However I'm going to give him a quick call and ask if I can get some logs from yesterday if he has any.
He did about 10-12 runs, maybe more. The line was consistent unless he was adjusting afr/timing (I presume).
Oil burning..Hmm, probably since 2013 !
I suspect the main cause was using below average oil, and I'm sure I'm partly to blame in the beginning for that too unfortunately.
I'm currently logging how much it uses, however I don't really do that many miles per week (maybe 50-100), unless there's a track day then due to distances it'll shoot up a bunch.
So I shall keep a close eye on it, of course it'll be getting worse and not better.
FYI - I use Millers 10w50 CFS NT+ since Oct last year.
Thank you for taking a look, I certainly appreciate it.
Update:
I just had a brief chat with my tuner, just to ask a few things. He didn't save the logs (my fault, I didn't realise it didn't auto save), and confirmed he was dialling in cam timing/afr/ etc.
Last edited by RobPhoboS; 08-07-2019 at 04:26 AM.
08-08-2019, 03:11 AM
#5
New Member
Thread Starter
I wonder if I'm having the same problem with Mikey, as he had the same issues he reported here (he had 1 tooth of ex timing):
https://my350z.com/forum/na-builds/6...etting-hp.html
https://my350z.com/forum/na-builds/6...etting-hp.html
08-10-2019, 10:09 AM
#6
New Member
Thread Starter
I just did a quick compression test too, on cylinders 1 and 3...
Note, in November last year they were around 185-195psi.
Now = 150psi!
He mentioned about compression being down if timing is off in this:
Looks like next weekend I'll be pulling that cover off again. Arrrghh
Note, in November last year they were around 185-195psi.
Now = 150psi!
He mentioned about compression being down if timing is off in this:
Looks like next weekend I'll be pulling that cover off again. Arrrghh
08-11-2019, 06:32 AM
#7
There is a way to check timing on the DE while the engine is still in the car. The only down side is that it can only check Crank, and Intake Cams. But that may lead you in the right direction.
http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/wol...tion_check.pdf
http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/wol...tion_check.pdf
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08-11-2019, 12:34 PM
#8
New Member
Thread Starter
Cheers for the link on that!
I'll finish testing this compression either tonight or tomorrow (basically ASAP).
The only thing is that I'm likely to pull the cover off again just so I actually know for sure either way. It'll drive me mad if I left it.
I'll finish testing this compression either tonight or tomorrow (basically ASAP).
The only thing is that I'm likely to pull the cover off again just so I actually know for sure either way. It'll drive me mad if I left it.
08-18-2019, 03:44 PM
#9
New Member
Thread Starter
I decided to do a wet compression test, followed a day later by a leak down test, here are my results:
Wet Comp was about 7% more than dry.
Leak Down (I'd imagine anything over 8% isn't ideal):
So that confirms what I knew anyway, the rings are worn (no problem as bottom end stuff is waiting to go in).
Back to the cylinder pressure difference, could that just be the C8's causing that and the relatively low HP readings due to rings ?
EDIT:
I pulled the engine, and it's currently being rebuilt.
The main journal bearings were TOAST !
Wet Comp was about 7% more than dry.
Leak Down (I'd imagine anything over 8% isn't ideal):
So that confirms what I knew anyway, the rings are worn (no problem as bottom end stuff is waiting to go in).
Back to the cylinder pressure difference, could that just be the C8's causing that and the relatively low HP readings due to rings ?
EDIT:
I pulled the engine, and it's currently being rebuilt.
The main journal bearings were TOAST !
Last edited by RobPhoboS; 02-04-2020 at 09:02 AM.
08-29-2022, 12:39 PM
#10
This is going to be a bit of a long post, apologies !
2004 350z - DE - 135k (burning a bit of oil but no streams of smoke! - full bottom end rebuild this coming winter)
I'm in the UK, using the same tuning/dyno company.
We know this dyno's numbers seem to read low but ultimately I'm not worried about that, more that improvements are made.
Over Christmas I did my timing chain (no issues before, just age/mileage) and I decided to do cams (JWT C8), springs, revup oil pump, water pump.
On the first dyno session, aside from these things done the car had stock headers, stock intake, straight pipes, cobra sports y-pipe back (2x 2.5" to 3", then 3" back).
Intake temp:10 deg (Feb)
310bhp (@fly)
(it's a comparison to my first dyno there back in Nov 2012)
WHP/AFR
The next dyno session I had added the following by this point:
Kaaz 1.5 diff
Z1 'Race' intake with the large 6" velocity stack and filter
Kinetix Velocity
75mm TB
Note - the very first runs we did had the stock intake connected, we noticed it was down and thought it was odd. So I then installed the Z1 intake but the dyno was the same.
So my initial conclusion was that the Kinetix was causing the loss but clearly started to extend the power curve further to the right. hmmm
I had assumed (with a couple of other folks) that my car could breath in properly but not out, however it doesn't seem that was really the full issue.
Intake temp: 24 deg (May)
292bhp (@ fly)
WHP/AFR
So now onto the dyno session today, ffs this is costing me a lot
PPE long tube headers (JWT advised spec on these)
HP Ignition coilpacks (decided to refresh them as I had original ones on the car still)
Fresh plugs
Motordyne XYZ-pipe with resonator (the old y-pipe was looking done)
Intake temp: 25-27 deg (Aug)
300bhp (@fly)
Pink line is from May, so you can see the PPE's have gained at the lower end
Knock detection disabled (was troubleshooting idea)
Once again comparison to Feb (WHP)
Ok, so we made the low end come up nicer now, and the curve itself looks quite nice - however, the numbers aren't, in comparison to my initial run of the year.
He also disabled the knock sensor for a couple of runs too, just in case that was causing a problem, it made a few more hp but nothing obviously wrong there.
This seems like either the Kinetix is struggling for some reason, or something else has gone wrong (ex cam chain slipped?).
I used my Instagram spying abilities to catch my son talking to a terrible guy early on. They had a brief conversation, and that was all. Because of this, it's crucial to supervise and watch over the youngsters in a sensible manner. I hope I can help and that you will be helpful. I found a complete applications here list of instagram spy realspyapps.com/instagram-spy/ . because I benefited and learned more as a result.
Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying learning about NA but fk me what is going on !
Engine parts as of August 2019:
Uprev tune
Kinetix Velocity plenum
JWT C8 Cams & springs
Z1 3" Race intake with 6" velocity stack/large filter
Ferra stem seals
PPE Longtube headers (spec advised by JWT)
RevUp oil pump
Motordyne resonated Y-pipe
3" back Cobra Sports resonated exhaust
New waterpump/timing chain/gallery gaskets/o-rings etc
Stock heads/bottom end (rebuilding in winter)
Stock injectors
HP Ignition coils
2004 350z - DE - 135k (burning a bit of oil but no streams of smoke! - full bottom end rebuild this coming winter)
I'm in the UK, using the same tuning/dyno company.
We know this dyno's numbers seem to read low but ultimately I'm not worried about that, more that improvements are made.
Over Christmas I did my timing chain (no issues before, just age/mileage) and I decided to do cams (JWT C8), springs, revup oil pump, water pump.
On the first dyno session, aside from these things done the car had stock headers, stock intake, straight pipes, cobra sports y-pipe back (2x 2.5" to 3", then 3" back).
Intake temp:10 deg (Feb)
310bhp (@fly)
(it's a comparison to my first dyno there back in Nov 2012)
WHP/AFR
The next dyno session I had added the following by this point:
Kaaz 1.5 diff
Z1 'Race' intake with the large 6" velocity stack and filter
Kinetix Velocity
75mm TB
Note - the very first runs we did had the stock intake connected, we noticed it was down and thought it was odd. So I then installed the Z1 intake but the dyno was the same.
So my initial conclusion was that the Kinetix was causing the loss but clearly started to extend the power curve further to the right. hmmm
I had assumed (with a couple of other folks) that my car could breath in properly but not out, however it doesn't seem that was really the full issue.
Intake temp: 24 deg (May)
292bhp (@ fly)
WHP/AFR
So now onto the dyno session today, ffs this is costing me a lot
PPE long tube headers (JWT advised spec on these)
HP Ignition coilpacks (decided to refresh them as I had original ones on the car still)
Fresh plugs
Motordyne XYZ-pipe with resonator (the old y-pipe was looking done)
Intake temp: 25-27 deg (Aug)
300bhp (@fly)
Pink line is from May, so you can see the PPE's have gained at the lower end
Knock detection disabled (was troubleshooting idea)
Once again comparison to Feb (WHP)
Ok, so we made the low end come up nicer now, and the curve itself looks quite nice - however, the numbers aren't, in comparison to my initial run of the year.
He also disabled the knock sensor for a couple of runs too, just in case that was causing a problem, it made a few more hp but nothing obviously wrong there.
This seems like either the Kinetix is struggling for some reason, or something else has gone wrong (ex cam chain slipped?).
I used my Instagram spying abilities to catch my son talking to a terrible guy early on. They had a brief conversation, and that was all. Because of this, it's crucial to supervise and watch over the youngsters in a sensible manner. I hope I can help and that you will be helpful. I found a complete applications here list of instagram spy realspyapps.com/instagram-spy/ . because I benefited and learned more as a result.
Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying learning about NA but fk me what is going on !
Engine parts as of August 2019:
Uprev tune
Kinetix Velocity plenum
JWT C8 Cams & springs
Z1 3" Race intake with 6" velocity stack/large filter
Ferra stem seals
PPE Longtube headers (spec advised by JWT)
RevUp oil pump
Motordyne resonated Y-pipe
3" back Cobra Sports resonated exhaust
New waterpump/timing chain/gallery gaskets/o-rings etc
Stock heads/bottom end (rebuilding in winter)
Stock injectors
HP Ignition coils
Last edited by Kalasin; 08-29-2022 at 12:41 PM.
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