I received my 2003Z Track on October 15, 2002, VIN # 1766. I am now on my third set of front tires in 24,000 miles due to the cupping, feathering, whatever $%!@ tire issue. Prior to having the third set put on, I wrote my required Lemon Law letter to NNA. They asked me to take it in to the dealership so NNA tech people could inspect and approved me for yet another set of tires, with the service manager swearing once again that this would absolutely fix it. Well, no suprise to any of you, it didn't. There is NO fix, believe me. After about 6,500 miles, the roar is getting worse and the cupping is now on both the inside and outside tread blocks. I am preparing to demand that NNA repurchase my car this time. Has anyone pressed NNA on the buy-back issue and won or lost? I am interested to hear the results people are getting. Since I am an attorney and a litigator, I am prepared to file suit against them if necessary and have one of my partners prosecute it for me. I am just interested in other experiences in pressing Lemon Law claims on this vehicle and how much NNA is agreeing to pay or being made to pay to buy them back.

Thanks.

 

kbsig106 won his LL suit. His most recent post is the last post on the previous page read back through this thread if you want ot get up to speed on his story.

Screw the LL. Someone needs to organize a nationwide class action law suit against NNA. Someone with legal clout and an understand of how these things work. This problem is wide spread and there are several cases were the TSB service as specified by NNA is not fixing the problem. Personnally, I think this situation is ripe for a class action law suit.

 

I agree....

In my hearing, the NNA rep had nothing to say, nothing to add and no real answers on how to fix this problem. In my opinion they're hoping since it's only 40,000 affected Z's and from that number a certain % do not even know there is a problem with their car. It's one thing if it's 400,000 Honda civics or something along those lines - you'll get that nationwide recall.

Also I have yet to receive the so called "letter" - yes even though I was in the LL process, I was still an owner of record at the time the list was put together.

Ohh BTW - when I turn my car in, it's my responsibility to make sure the lein holder is paid off by Nissan.... Can you believe that $hit? I sign a release and I'm still going to have to watch Nissan to make sure they settle up with Chase Bank. Imagine the major screw up if they don't pay by my next payment due date. I'm going to have to pay in advance to cover my credit and then request a refund once Nissan pays the pay-off amount.

Also I can't go car shopping till I have my check, Nissan has not called and I could be waiting for 30 days. Once the car is turned in, then I'll receive my check - then I can go finally buy a different car. I can't even shop for a new one - since I don't know the "final" turn in date. Granted I'm driving on their miles since 4/16/04

It's like the turn in is more trouble than all the freak'n repairs..... Of course they never made this easy.....

 

In case you didn't see it I posted the letter on another thread:

https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....740#post834740

I wouldn't worry about this too much. The lien holder won' t release the title (probably to you – depends on the terms of the buy back) until the bank loan is paid. Nissan may have possession of the car but until the loan is paid the bank owns the car. Also, the bank should refund any overpayment on the loan automatically in case you have to make payments in the mean time. This happened to me when I traded in the ’01 Ranger on the Z. I had a payment in process at the time of payoff and Ford Motor Credit automatically issued the refund – no hassles.

Good luck.

 

I agree with you that this case seems perfect for a class action suit against Nissan. I do not personally do any class action litigation, so I don't know the first thing about it, but I suspect the reason some lawyer hasn't already jumped at the chance is because it would be too expensive and/or too complicated with 50 different states' laws, not to mention other countries, and all of the thousands of notices that would have to be mailed, etc. Since the damages are probably only in the single digit thousands per customer, a full recovery may not compensate a law firm for all of the expenses of prosecuting such a case.

I did not receive that latest letter or any letter ever from Nissan regarding this issue. I have had discussions with customer affairs regarding this issue, and they act like I am the first person to ever mention it to them, which is also the way the dealership has reacted to my complaints about it. I'm giving them until next Friday to get very close to paying me what I want for the vehicle, or I am filing a lawsuit to get my money back. I don't care what "new fix" they say they have. My car has been in a total of 5 times for this same problem, and I can't even sell it to someone else because I would have to disclose this defect and therefore undermine the value of the vehicle.

Have any of you assembled a set of documents as evidence about this problem. It would be nice to have a set of all magazine articles, consumer threads, etc. regarding this to use as evidence in the lawsuit. If one or a few people put something like that together, everyone from now on could use the same packet to prove NNA has a defect, knows it has a defect, and refuses to do what is necessary to correct it.

 

Also, by way of explanation, class actions are not a great legal avenue for the complainants. They will usually get very little from such a settlement because there are so many of them and the nature of a large settlement is a lot of compromise on the complainant's part. The attorneys are the ones who clean up if there is anything there through up to 40-50% fees on the total settlement.

Such a suit would not necessarily have to be a class action. You could file suit with 100 plaintiffs if you wanted to. There is nothing to prevent it. The thing that a class action allows you to do is bring a lot of people of whom the court would otherwise not have jurisdiction. I still don't think a class action is probably doable in this situation, and it wouldn't be economical to have 100 plaintiffs in the same suit either. Each plaintiff would probably be best off it he or she just goes at it alone in his or her own state. A hundred or so cases, with 50 or so lawyers being paid by the hour to defend those cases, will eventually get NNA's attention. Frankly, I don't care what gets their attention. I don't want the car anymore, so I don't care for me whether or not they fix it. I just want my money back and now!

 

I also recently won my case in the Nissan certified dispute settlement procedure. Nissan was ordered to repurchase the vehicle. The case has been sent back to the Arbitrator however, over the issue of the trade in vehicle which I have asked NADA retail value for as per Florida Statute and the Nissan Certified Program Summary. As soon as the Arbitrator makes a decision on that I can either accept the decision or take the case to the Florida New Motor Vehicle Arbitration Board. You are welcome to any of the documents that I have assembled including all of the TSB's, articles, case references, etc. but the infromation is readily available via the Internet. The best piece of evidence in my case, at least I think, were the video files presented on CD and played at the hearing that clearly demonstrated the grinding transmssion and the growling tires. I bored the crap out of them with my 20 page written presentation but both the Nissan rep and the Arbitrator watched that video intently and it was a very tough sell for Nissan to explain that away. If you've had the same problem repaired 5 times and you still have it, all you have to do is show that the defect still exists and significantly affects the use, value or safety of the vehicle (however it is worded in your State Law). Get the TSB's. Download the Autoweek Articles. Print out the NHTSA reports. Get third party opinions from auto professionals stating both that you have the problem and that it is not "normal". Research other high performance cars, and there a quite a few, that run the Bridgstone RE-040 with no problems. Introduce the letter sent to owners by Nissan. There is more than enough amunition out there, most of it produced by Nissan. If Nissan has a certified program in your State you may have to exhaust any remedies there before you can file a suit. In Florida the process would be:

- Three attempts on the same repair or 30 days out of service.
- Send Nissan the Certified demand to conform letter.
- If not fixed, send Nissan Settlement offer if desired.
- File with the certified program.
-accept or reject decision as the case may be.
-File with the State Arbitration board
-If still not satisfied, file a lawsuit.

But I'm not the lawyer. That's your job.

 

If this process cost you say $3-5k, and you were (as many are) in their first year of ownership, why not simply trade the car in, take the depreciation hit of 15-20%, and walk away? If you have definitely decided to go LL, unless you cover ALL you expenses in the Nissan buyout process, it would seem to make sense to at least consider dealer trade-in if that fits your goals. Just a thought...it's not taking the moral high ground, but I have to wonder if for the majority if they are simply fighting a "battle" with Nissan they cannot win. Or, if they "win", what is the cost in lost time, lack of use of a vehicle?

As much as I like the Z, you have to separate economic reality from emotion. Many of the LL suits will fail as an overall measure of true cost vs. benefit. You may get even money and legal costs if you are lucky - but is that breaking even, or worse?

My decision is not for everyone, but I walked away after three TSB's, recurring problem after initial swap, alignment, etc. I first ensured I had a quality alignment. When the wear pattern returned at 11k, I decided to cut my losses and try again with a newer Nissan product ('04 G35SC), a compromise workable for me and the dealership. What would really have been a losing scenario would to have waited another 12 months and tried the same with 20k+ miles and unacceptable loss vs. lien/residual, plus all the complications around timing of payout by Nissan to the lien holder. Then think about you doing the LL 1:1 against a large corporation - up front you must be prepared for some serious hassle, above and beyond any repairs and TSB's you've already donated your time to address.

I find it really odd that an Attorney above all others would take the hit in revenue to sue Nissan, instead of working with other paying clients. Short of a class action, which won't happen here, all they may do is win their own LL case - is that worth thousands of dollars in lost billable revenue while they chase Nissan? It won't set a precedent, every case in LL is on its own, it won't change behavior or how Nissan approaches other settlements. It will only provide the dubious satisfaction of "winning" your case (economically, is it really winning?) I'm not advocating being a loser or just rolling over for Nissan, but being realistic about your particular situation.

Above all Nissan has horribly mismanaged dealing with this issue. I don't buy into a plot or conspiracy of stalling, I really believe NNA is seriously challenged as a corporate body to handle this problem and everything else at the same time. Ghosen himself stated the biggest challenge with NNA would be rapid growth and maturing the mangement running the show - I think we know how that turned out.

I truly hope Nissan works this out in a way that addresses likely a very large number of 03' 350Z's, but I was not willing to gamble $10k or more on waiting to see the outcome. If they do, there is always another Z in the showroom I'll have the choice to buy in '05, '06...basically I just drove the car for 14 months for the cost of the monthly payments - not much more.

To me, it was a choice of which I wanted more - to fight, or simply to win overall and move on. In a way I think the ultimate "win" against Nissan is saying "you screwed up, I don't want your car" - but not losing your shirt in the process. Look at where resale values are already headed on '03 Z's - I see new Touring Z's on sale for less than sticker of my Base 350Z. Any miles more than 10-12k, or about 1 year's use, the resale is terrible.

 

I can not see why anyone would not do a LL. I am doing LL right now and knowing that I am also driving a free car (albeit a free car with very loud tires My cost is $1,250 in fees including court costs. I am quite sure I will win the case, as Nissan has admitted in front of me and a witness that there is no 'real' fix for this issue. My lawyer extremely confident.

Nissan must buy my car back at full cost, and then pay all of my attorney fees. How is that not a bad deal? I have invested very little time in the matter.

What is sad is most people think the process it complicated. They then give up. That is what I do not understand.

 

That is a great deal. Not all states are equal when it comes to LL, some are more complicated that others. Once you've made that decision it is likely easier than a lot of people think. What is not easy at all is the multiple visits to the dealer for TSB's, alignments, new tires, only to then have it all fail in the end.

I am surprised you have invested very little time - the TSB visits, etc. alone w/o lemon law were a significant time sink for me. Add to that phone calls, letters, etc. - it wasn't trivial.

You pretty much have to get to that point to go LL. In my case miles were so low and I was already on second pass with alignments, etc. I just walked away from the car instead, cut my losses by staying with a Nissan product (Infiniti). I lost very little on the trade - roughly the cost of the service (rotors, pads, tires, etc.)I would have spent in the next 6 months anyway. Plus, the tranny was making unhealthy noises, windows had grease streaks, the driver's seat rocked on the rails, ... you get the picture.

If I had 20k or more no way I could have cut a deal. That you are able to continue to drive the car is a big plus, so long as you win in court. Best of luck, sounds like you are headed for a win.

 

Thank you for the kind words.

The reason I have little time invested is simple. People are making this harder on themselves than they need to. It is very well known that there is NO real fix for what is causing the tire wear.

To qualify for LL in my state you must have the dealership attempt a repair three times for a major issue. I went to my lawyer after giving the dealership one attempt. This was due to the fact that I knew there was no fix. He advised to not even bother with NNA. These types of cases happen all of the time. 90% of the people out there just give up and either sell their cars or live with the problem.

Don't make it harder than it really is. If I was any of you with this issue (which I am hehe) I would get an attorney ASAP and don't keep following the run around that Nissan is giving you. In my opinion it is pointless unless you really like to spend time at the dealership.

He is a last bit of advise... I would not keep hope alive that Nissan is going to ever fix this problem. It is worrisome to me that the '03's have been having this issue for a year now. They have extended the warranty for alignment to two years. What happens when that runs out? I for one am not going to spend $240 minimum on one tire every 5,000 miles or so.

Good luck to everyone!

 

First off the best course of action will vary from person to person and car to car. Many things have to be considered before one chooses to purse LL case.


1) First and foremost what problems are really occurring with the car? Bad tranny + severe tire feathering + the other 350Z nuances absolutely justifies legal action. However, this thread addresses the tire feathering issue. Tire feathering alone does not just the financial loss incurred by LL buy back.

2) The financial implications. Aside from the loss associated with trading the car in or even a buy back at current private party value as specified by kbb, consider the cost of purchasing a new car. Not just the price of a new car but the cost of purchasing the car. In Ohio the tax rate is 7.5%. On a $30,000 car that’s $2,250 dollars. Add another $200 (or more) for documentation fees vehicle registration, titling etc. $2500 goes along way on suspension mods that will improve the performance of the Z as well as solve the feathering problem!

3) Do you really like the Z or not? If you do then its worth the time spent at the dealer and the short-term frustration associated with feathered tires. Otherwise, don’t waste your time, take the financial hit and try and find a more fun car to buy (good luck).

If you can afford and are willing to take the financial hit by taking the easy (and expensive) route then so be it, but many owners can’t or don’t want to. From a practicality standpoint (at least legally speaking – I don’t know I’m not the expert) perhaps class action is not the way to go. But legally something has to be invoked on NNA to bring them to a table with a real fix. I believe most owners want a FIX not a SETTLEMENT.

 

I don't know where you guys are getting your figures but I am not seeing the "loss" in pursuing a lemon law buy back. I can't speak for all 50 States but if you prevail in most States you are entitled to a full refund of the purchase price, taxes, fees, add- ons, accessories and interest less some reasonable offset for use. The Ohio Lemon Law, for example, is based on the purchase price not the kbb value. The reasonable offset varies by State. In some States, like California I believe, the offset only includes mileage up to when the problem was first reported. I believe that Nissan also has a certified arbitration program in just about all 50 States which means that you have a mechanism available to you that will cost you absolutely nothing and can be triggered by a simple phone call. No legal representation is neccessary to take advantage of Nissan's informal dispute settlement procedures if you are willing to invest a little bit of your time to prepare your case and, based on my experience, the program works. Trading in your vehicle is the worst thing that you can do. You will take a large loss and Nissan will have no motivation to ever fix this problem. Trading in your vehicle for another Nissan product is even worse. Why not just reward Nissan for producing a defective vehicle and not fixing it. If you win in a Lemon Law action you get your money back including interest and Nissan gets a now worthless re-titled lemon that may have cost them as much as $75,000. I guarantee you that will get Nissan's attention particularly if the number of cases increases. On the other hand, LL may not be an option for many people. Either they are past their rights period or just want to keep the car in spite of it's problems. For their sake I hope Nissan fixes all of the issues. Losing case after case in arbitration certainly won't hurt in the effort to "bring Nissan to the table".

 

1. Yes tire feathering alone justifies a LL buy back, at least under Ohio law. If you were to sell your car to a private party legally you must disclose any defects in the car if asked. I would believe the need to buy new tires every 5,000 constitutes a defect in the car. This fact reduces the value of your car significantly, but also gives you another justification that supports the LL in the state of Ohio.


3. How do you know 100% for sure this is only a short-term frustration? There is no fix for this issue. There have been three TSB Band-Aids. What happens after your warranty runs out? Think of all of the people out there that are having this issue and just living with it hoping that some day there is going to be a fix. Then the other large percentages of people just give up and take a very big loss on their cars by selling or trading it in. Just sue Nissan! Why throw away money for no reason??? My logic says it is less of a frustration to sue Nissan than it is to keep going to the dealership every 5 months or so.

 

The point is, if tire feathering is the only issue with the car, LL buy-back and the subsequent purchase of a new car will be more expensive than modifying the suspension to increase the handling performance and eliminate the tire feathering issue. Regardless if NNA comes up with a legit fix or not.

If anything else, they may redesign the entire front end - who knows. The fact of the matter is, though, they will not continue to sell Z's for years to come if this problem is not resolved. Maybe the current owners will get screwed and maybe we wont but something will get changed in the suspension sooner or later. Otherwise they will have to kill production because no one will buy them if the problem is as widespread as it appears to be. If they do kill production, well, my resale value is going right back up!

 

I think I am misunderstanding what you are saying. How can it be more expensive to have Nissan buy back your car and then buy a new car in its place? When we file suit, Nissan is going to have to buy back my car at full purchase price including TTL, any items I purchased for it, and my lawyer fees.

You are correct that there will be a fix some day. But if it is something that they can apply to our cars remains to be seen. And lastly...who wants to wait? I for one do not.

 

I just saw your post after I posted that last note above. I agree 100%. I just don't understand why anyone would not fight this. Why take a many thousand dollar loss for no reason? It is such a simple process. Can you private message me more about this arbitration process that is set up?

 

First, can someone explain the Nissan settlement program? Is this binding arbitration or is this simply a settlement conference where either party can refuse to settle and force a lawsuit, like a mediation? Does anyone have literature on the program? I have just given my second notice of defect, after allowing them a 5th service attempt to fix feathering, and I am now demanding buy back or a new vehicle (like that is likely).

I don't think I am going to have ANY trouble proving a defect. This feathering thing proves itself. My other question is what damages are being awarded or agreed to by Nissan? I am in Oklahoma, and we are entitled to full purchase price, plus interests, taxes, etc. minus a reasonable allowance for use. It seems to me the hard thing to quantify here is the reasonable allowance. Is reasonable allowance equal to a monthy lease payment for this vehicle? I would think not since that would essentially exceed depreciation. The final amount has to be at least retail value as a floor. Yet, my NADA doesn't indicate retail value for my Track model. Is there another guideline that is being used? I'm very interested in finding reasonable sources for valuing this vehicle for this purpose to assist me in negotiating for the buy back.

Someone mentioned re-titling. I don't think Nissan would have to put salvage or rebuilt titles on these vehicles simply because they are bought back. However, on the other hand, they cannot simply throw new tires on them and sell them for retail. That will get them in a while lot of trouble. They are going to have to actually fix the vehicles with something other than these joke TSBs and disclose the fix to consumers.

I would appreciate any information on the Nissan dispute resolution procedure and on guidelines for valuation of these buy backs. Are there any Oklahoma LL claims out there? What are the results? Who knows, after I finish my case, I'll just start lining them up to handle for other screwed consumers.

 

Sooooie:
In response to your PM - Nissan will also have to pay my lein holder 25k to pay off the note. So in the end - the judgement was 11k for me and 25k for the lein holder. Then they (-) the off-set of 4949.00 off my 11k reward.

So in the end, Nissan will have to shell out close to 32k to settle this lemon law and in return they get a Brickyard Z with 17,000 miles, a set of feathered tires and "Lemon" on the title (Per State of FLA case law) Ch 681.

So in the end it cost me $4949.00 for 16 months of usuage.

Still sucks - but ohhh well......

 

Sounds like you have the same questions I do here in Ohio. Keep me posted on what you find out!