Haltech boost controll
09-07-2011, 12:33 AM
#1
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Haltech boost controll
Hi
I am soon starting to use the haltech to do my boost controll and have some questions.
Controll start pressure is this the same as most boost controllers call start boost as in the solenoid is closed to you hit this boost then starts to regulate?
Derivative, what does this mean? I dont use english as my first language so I dont know what this is..
closed loop duty setting, is this a base setting I set and then in closed loop the haltech uses this pluss or minus the % I have told it it can use to reach target boost?
I am used to use normal boostcontrollers like HKS EVC, Greddy Profec 2 etc so hope someone can give me some hints to make it a little easier to start with
Christian
I am soon starting to use the haltech to do my boost controll and have some questions.
Controll start pressure is this the same as most boost controllers call start boost as in the solenoid is closed to you hit this boost then starts to regulate?
Derivative, what does this mean? I dont use english as my first language so I dont know what this is..
closed loop duty setting, is this a base setting I set and then in closed loop the haltech uses this pluss or minus the % I have told it it can use to reach target boost?
I am used to use normal boostcontrollers like HKS EVC, Greddy Profec 2 etc so hope someone can give me some hints to make it a little easier to start with
Christian
Last edited by chovden; 09-07-2011 at 12:36 AM.
09-07-2011, 03:04 AM
#2
Control start pressure - The boost control solenoid will be 100% until this many PSI/KPA before your target. This maximizes spool.
Derivative - part of the PID control. Suggest you leave this at 0 and adjust P and I to achieve your desired boost.
Close loop duty setting - start position for boost control. Easiest way to find this, run the car in open loop and find what duty is required to achieve your target boost. Reduce that duty by 5-10 and use as your closed loop duty setting.
Example:
Target = 100kpa
Control start pressure = 50kpa
Boost control would be 100% until 50kpa, at which point it would jump to the closed loop duty setting and begin regulating (using PID values) from there.
Derivative - part of the PID control. Suggest you leave this at 0 and adjust P and I to achieve your desired boost.
Close loop duty setting - start position for boost control. Easiest way to find this, run the car in open loop and find what duty is required to achieve your target boost. Reduce that duty by 5-10 and use as your closed loop duty setting.
Example:
Target = 100kpa
Control start pressure = 50kpa
Boost control would be 100% until 50kpa, at which point it would jump to the closed loop duty setting and begin regulating (using PID values) from there.
09-07-2011, 04:49 AM
#3
Here are my cheat sheet notes for Haltech boost control.
PID tuning tutorial: http://www.expertune.com/tutor.html
Haltech forums: http://forums.haltech.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4310
Here is the guide for tuning boost from the Haltech manual:
Closed Loop Tuning
Basic Closed Loop Setup Procedure
The Basic Setup Procedure is a guide on how to get some basic parameters in place to allow the closed loop boost controller to operate.
It is assumed that all the target boost levels are above the wastegate spring pressure. The electronic boost controller cannot control boost below the wastegate spring pressure.
Choose Closed Loop for the Control Type.
Set the frequency of the Turbo Waste Gate solenoid in the �Frequency� setting.
The Haltech waste gate solenoid runs at a frequency of 20 � 30 Hz.
Disable the controller by setting Proportional � 0%, Integral � 0% and Derivative � 0%.
Set the �Control Point Before Target� to the default value of 20 kPa (3 PSI).
Set the �Delay till Boost Control� to the default value of 0.5 sec.
Set the �Target Boost� table at the boost level that you want to run across the whole RPM range.
Set the �Start Duty� to a duty cycle that should get you close to your boost target. Start at a small duty, then slowly increase to avoid overboosting.
Put the engine under sufficient load (i.e. on a dyno) to get it to reach the target boost level. Watch to make sure it does not over boost. View the duty cycle of the wastegate, by displaying the Duty channel of the output that the boost controller is setup on. E.g. If boost control is setup on DPO1, then view Digital Pulse Output 1 Duty.
If the boost level exceeds the target boost level reduce the �Start Duty�, if the boost is far away from the target boost level, then increase �Start Duty�. The final value should allow boost to come close to, but just below the target boost level. If Start Duty is set too high, the controller will spike when coming on boost. If it is set too low, then it will start low and slowly rise to the target.
Once you are satisfied with your Start Duty setting, turn on the controller by restoring the Proportional, Integral and Derivative to the following settings:
Proportional - 50%
Integral - 0%
Derivative - 0%
Adjust Proportional until your boost starts to oscillate. Once you find this value, set the Proportional to about half this value. While tuning this value, your boost may still not hit the target boost exactly. This is normal at this stage.
Once you are satisfied with your Proportional setting, start increasing the Integral value until the target boost is close enough to the target level that you wish to run.
Once Proportional and Integral are set, check to see if you have any overshoot when hitting the target. If you have some overshoot, then increase Derivative until that overshoot is minimised. Use caution when increasing Derivative as this setting is very sensitive and should be increased very slowly otherwise, unstable boost control may result. (IGNORE THIS STEP AND FOLLOW HAL'S RECOMMENDATION TO LEAVE DERIVATIVE TO 0)
PID tuning tutorial: http://www.expertune.com/tutor.html
Haltech forums: http://forums.haltech.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4310
Here is the guide for tuning boost from the Haltech manual:
Closed Loop Tuning
Basic Closed Loop Setup Procedure
The Basic Setup Procedure is a guide on how to get some basic parameters in place to allow the closed loop boost controller to operate.
It is assumed that all the target boost levels are above the wastegate spring pressure. The electronic boost controller cannot control boost below the wastegate spring pressure.
Choose Closed Loop for the Control Type.
Set the frequency of the Turbo Waste Gate solenoid in the �Frequency� setting.
The Haltech waste gate solenoid runs at a frequency of 20 � 30 Hz.
Disable the controller by setting Proportional � 0%, Integral � 0% and Derivative � 0%.
Set the �Control Point Before Target� to the default value of 20 kPa (3 PSI).
Set the �Delay till Boost Control� to the default value of 0.5 sec.
Set the �Target Boost� table at the boost level that you want to run across the whole RPM range.
Set the �Start Duty� to a duty cycle that should get you close to your boost target. Start at a small duty, then slowly increase to avoid overboosting.
Put the engine under sufficient load (i.e. on a dyno) to get it to reach the target boost level. Watch to make sure it does not over boost. View the duty cycle of the wastegate, by displaying the Duty channel of the output that the boost controller is setup on. E.g. If boost control is setup on DPO1, then view Digital Pulse Output 1 Duty.
If the boost level exceeds the target boost level reduce the �Start Duty�, if the boost is far away from the target boost level, then increase �Start Duty�. The final value should allow boost to come close to, but just below the target boost level. If Start Duty is set too high, the controller will spike when coming on boost. If it is set too low, then it will start low and slowly rise to the target.
Once you are satisfied with your Start Duty setting, turn on the controller by restoring the Proportional, Integral and Derivative to the following settings:
Proportional - 50%
Integral - 0%
Derivative - 0%
Adjust Proportional until your boost starts to oscillate. Once you find this value, set the Proportional to about half this value. While tuning this value, your boost may still not hit the target boost exactly. This is normal at this stage.
Once you are satisfied with your Proportional setting, start increasing the Integral value until the target boost is close enough to the target level that you wish to run.
Once Proportional and Integral are set, check to see if you have any overshoot when hitting the target. If you have some overshoot, then increase Derivative until that overshoot is minimised. Use caution when increasing Derivative as this setting is very sensitive and should be increased very slowly otherwise, unstable boost control may result. (IGNORE THIS STEP AND FOLLOW HAL'S RECOMMENDATION TO LEAVE DERIVATIVE TO 0)
Last edited by rcdash; 09-07-2011 at 04:51 AM.
09-07-2011, 05:12 AM
#5
^ Its only complicated on paper.
Hal posted this when I asked him the same question before, I think its easier to understand than the above posts.
Hal posted this when I asked him the same question before, I think its easier to understand than the above posts.
Preface:
Make sure you have Overboost Limit setup for safety prior to boost control tuning.
Tuning Closed Loop Boost Control (CLBC)
First, set boost control to Open Loop and see what duty cycle is required to achieve the boost you want. Start around 18-20% and work up from there.
Next, set it to Closed Loop Boost Control.
A quick overview of how CLBC will work:
CLBC runs the boost control solenoid at 100% to maximize spool until it reaches TARGET BOOST less CONTROL START PRESSURE. At that point (TB - CSP), closed loop boost control starts from the CLOSED LOOP BASE DUTY and uses PID control to achieve your TARGET BOOST.
PID values: Good place to start is 24-12-0 accordingly. These will adjust aggressiveness and oscillation. D should remain 0.
Control Start Pressure(CSP): Good starting point is 30kpa. This can be adjusted as needed. An engine that spools very fast and boost shoots up will require a greater CSP.
Closed Loop Base Duty: Subtract 5 from the Open Loop duty cycle value you determined necessary to achieve your target boost above. For example, if OLBC required 44% DC to achieve target boost, then start with Closed Loop Base Duty at 39.
Make sure you have Overboost Limit setup for safety prior to boost control tuning.
Tuning Closed Loop Boost Control (CLBC)
First, set boost control to Open Loop and see what duty cycle is required to achieve the boost you want. Start around 18-20% and work up from there.
Next, set it to Closed Loop Boost Control.
A quick overview of how CLBC will work:
CLBC runs the boost control solenoid at 100% to maximize spool until it reaches TARGET BOOST less CONTROL START PRESSURE. At that point (TB - CSP), closed loop boost control starts from the CLOSED LOOP BASE DUTY and uses PID control to achieve your TARGET BOOST.
PID values: Good place to start is 24-12-0 accordingly. These will adjust aggressiveness and oscillation. D should remain 0.
Control Start Pressure(CSP): Good starting point is 30kpa. This can be adjusted as needed. An engine that spools very fast and boost shoots up will require a greater CSP.
Closed Loop Base Duty: Subtract 5 from the Open Loop duty cycle value you determined necessary to achieve your target boost above. For example, if OLBC required 44% DC to achieve target boost, then start with Closed Loop Base Duty at 39.
Last edited by midz350; 09-07-2011 at 05:13 AM.
09-07-2011, 11:40 AM
#6
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this is a good thread topic.
whats the general consensus for what value people are using for the controll offset pressure? currently i have mine set at 5psi. i noticed that if i have it set at 3 psi, i overshoot my target boost constantly. thinking this is because of the quick spooling tdo5 18g's.
whats the general consensus for what value people are using for the controll offset pressure? currently i have mine set at 5psi. i noticed that if i have it set at 3 psi, i overshoot my target boost constantly. thinking this is because of the quick spooling tdo5 18g's.
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09-08-2011, 06:48 AM
#8
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thanks for the info, I am home in a weeks time so I will get the solenoid installed and test a little before it is of to the dyne to get some results.
Christian
Christian
09-08-2011, 07:07 AM
#9
You can test the solenoid is working and wired correctly before you go to the dyno by doing the following:
Engine off, Key to ON
Haltech BCS set to Open Loop
Open Loop Duty Cycle set to 50% at 0rpm
You should now hear the solenoid clicking rapidly in the engine bay
Remember to set your Duty back to 0% after testing
Engine off, Key to ON
Haltech BCS set to Open Loop
Open Loop Duty Cycle set to 50% at 0rpm
You should now hear the solenoid clicking rapidly in the engine bay
Remember to set your Duty back to 0% after testing
09-09-2011, 05:23 AM
#10
Here are my cheat sheet notes for Haltech boost control.
PID tuning tutorial: http://www.expertune.com/tutor.html
Haltech forums: http://forums.haltech.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4310
Here is the guide for tuning boost from the Haltech manual:
Closed Loop Tuning
Basic Closed Loop Setup Procedure
The Basic Setup Procedure is a guide on how to get some basic parameters in place to allow the closed loop boost controller to operate.
It is assumed that all the target boost levels are above the wastegate spring pressure. The electronic boost controller cannot control boost below the wastegate spring pressure.
Choose Closed Loop for the Control Type.
Set the frequency of the Turbo Waste Gate solenoid in the �Frequency� setting.
The Haltech waste gate solenoid runs at a frequency of 20 � 30 Hz.
Disable the controller by setting Proportional � 0%, Integral � 0% and Derivative � 0%.
Set the �Control Point Before Target� to the default value of 20 kPa (3 PSI).
Set the �Delay till Boost Control� to the default value of 0.5 sec.
Set the �Target Boost� table at the boost level that you want to run across the whole RPM range.
Set the �Start Duty� to a duty cycle that should get you close to your boost target. Start at a small duty, then slowly increase to avoid overboosting.
Put the engine under sufficient load (i.e. on a dyno) to get it to reach the target boost level. Watch to make sure it does not over boost. View the duty cycle of the wastegate, by displaying the Duty channel of the output that the boost controller is setup on. E.g. If boost control is setup on DPO1, then view Digital Pulse Output 1 Duty.
If the boost level exceeds the target boost level reduce the �Start Duty�, if the boost is far away from the target boost level, then increase �Start Duty�. The final value should allow boost to come close to, but just below the target boost level. If Start Duty is set too high, the controller will spike when coming on boost. If it is set too low, then it will start low and slowly rise to the target.
Once you are satisfied with your Start Duty setting, turn on the controller by restoring the Proportional, Integral and Derivative to the following settings:
Proportional - 50%
Integral - 0%
Derivative - 0%
Adjust Proportional until your boost starts to oscillate. Once you find this value, set the Proportional to about half this value. While tuning this value, your boost may still not hit the target boost exactly. This is normal at this stage.
Once you are satisfied with your Proportional setting, start increasing the Integral value until the target boost is close enough to the target level that you wish to run.
Once Proportional and Integral are set, check to see if you have any overshoot when hitting the target. If you have some overshoot, then increase Derivative until that overshoot is minimised. Use caution when increasing Derivative as this setting is very sensitive and should be increased very slowly otherwise, unstable boost control may result. (IGNORE THIS STEP AND FOLLOW HAL'S RECOMMENDATION TO LEAVE DERIVATIVE TO 0)
PID tuning tutorial: http://www.expertune.com/tutor.html
Haltech forums: http://forums.haltech.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4310
Here is the guide for tuning boost from the Haltech manual:
Closed Loop Tuning
Basic Closed Loop Setup Procedure
The Basic Setup Procedure is a guide on how to get some basic parameters in place to allow the closed loop boost controller to operate.
It is assumed that all the target boost levels are above the wastegate spring pressure. The electronic boost controller cannot control boost below the wastegate spring pressure.
Choose Closed Loop for the Control Type.
Set the frequency of the Turbo Waste Gate solenoid in the �Frequency� setting.
The Haltech waste gate solenoid runs at a frequency of 20 � 30 Hz.
Disable the controller by setting Proportional � 0%, Integral � 0% and Derivative � 0%.
Set the �Control Point Before Target� to the default value of 20 kPa (3 PSI).
Set the �Delay till Boost Control� to the default value of 0.5 sec.
Set the �Target Boost� table at the boost level that you want to run across the whole RPM range.
Set the �Start Duty� to a duty cycle that should get you close to your boost target. Start at a small duty, then slowly increase to avoid overboosting.
Put the engine under sufficient load (i.e. on a dyno) to get it to reach the target boost level. Watch to make sure it does not over boost. View the duty cycle of the wastegate, by displaying the Duty channel of the output that the boost controller is setup on. E.g. If boost control is setup on DPO1, then view Digital Pulse Output 1 Duty.
If the boost level exceeds the target boost level reduce the �Start Duty�, if the boost is far away from the target boost level, then increase �Start Duty�. The final value should allow boost to come close to, but just below the target boost level. If Start Duty is set too high, the controller will spike when coming on boost. If it is set too low, then it will start low and slowly rise to the target.
Once you are satisfied with your Start Duty setting, turn on the controller by restoring the Proportional, Integral and Derivative to the following settings:
Proportional - 50%
Integral - 0%
Derivative - 0%
Adjust Proportional until your boost starts to oscillate. Once you find this value, set the Proportional to about half this value. While tuning this value, your boost may still not hit the target boost exactly. This is normal at this stage.
Once you are satisfied with your Proportional setting, start increasing the Integral value until the target boost is close enough to the target level that you wish to run.
Once Proportional and Integral are set, check to see if you have any overshoot when hitting the target. If you have some overshoot, then increase Derivative until that overshoot is minimised. Use caution when increasing Derivative as this setting is very sensitive and should be increased very slowly otherwise, unstable boost control may result. (IGNORE THIS STEP AND FOLLOW HAL'S RECOMMENDATION TO LEAVE DERIVATIVE TO 0)
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