CursedFish

As a quick preface, I'm fairly new here and I didn't see this information posted elsewhere using a quick few searches. If it is, feel free to ****-can this post because I'm a dumbass.

I haven't had a chance to get an oil analysis from Blackstone yet, but I did do a fair amount of research for my VR-4 (3000GT, not Galant). Besides Bob the oil guy, there was a bunch of great threads on 3si.org that I pulled a lot of my information from as well.

I ended up running Redline (or Royal Purple when I couldn't get Redline) with a CM filter. I initially used a Purolator PureOne due to how well it filtered, but the media's restrictive properties also cause the bypass valve to open very early. I will try to dig up the website or some old Blackstone results just to put more to this post than just my opinions. I believe M1 and K&N filters are identical aside from the filtering media used, but my oil pressure was slightly higher with the PureOne. For a car I only drive at the track, I wouldn't mind the bypass opening (I'd have bigger problems to worry about anyway). If it was a DD, I would definitely opt for one without a bypass if I was running it hard.

While all oils are not created equal, most will work fine if the car is driven lightly. The real differences are evident in cars that are driven hard. Along with this is an excerpt from a member on 3SI with his thoughts:

To close this post out, I do not have anywhere near the knowledge of these cars as I do my VR-4, but I assume most of it is universally applicable. My apologies for the long read.

Three Fifty Z

I use Castrol Syntec 5W30. It's great, the engine runs so much smoother than when it did with the oil from the dealer. The car is also noticeably faster.

IsDatIt

iTrader: (21)

Come On Man............Serious?

Stop It Just Stop it.


---On a SERIOUS Note---

I Also Run Castrol Syntec 5w-30 w/ K&N Filter!

So Far So Good

Three Fifty Z

I'm very serious, I don't mean it went from 13.4 to 12.4 in a 1/4 mile faster, but its definitely more responsive and waaay smoother, I was very surprised by the difference it made. With the conventional oil the engine was sluggish as hell, and I didn't even realize it until I tried the synthetic oil.

But if you couldn't feel the difference in the way your engine works switching from conventional to synthetic, then..uhh...I'm sorry, I guess.

NY350zG

10w-40 here

Nexx

iTrader: (41)

its all in the head dude.

Three Fifty Z

yeah ok

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

Man, there's a bunch of stuff in your quote that's at best vague and at worst misleading. It's been hashed out on the forum before, but it bares repeating: Don't try and "bench race" various oils by what you think is the best base oil. There are a number of G3 oils that I would use over a lot of G5 oils for my needs, and most Z drivers would not benefit from a more expensive ester-base oil.

IsDatIt

iTrader: (21)

Conventional Oil!??

Ur Car HAS SYNTHETIC FROM THE DEALER what are you talking about??

.......please save your sympathy!


ANd this is what you said so im responding to what YOU said!vvv

Three Fifty Z

I can't believe people don't notice the difference. I'm really not going to argue, but I will say this:

At the dealer's they gave me 5w30 synthetic blend motor oil, I apologize for saying conventional oil, that's not what I meant to say. Synthetic blend is nothing like a fully synthetic oil, in case you didn't know that. In fact, most synthetic blend oils are not even close to the fully synthetic oils because they're not POA or polyalphaolefin based, because of polyalphaolefins the fully synthetic oil has a much smaller molecular structure which in turn makes it much more consistent and lubricative, which is what a true fully synthetic oil is. The synthetic blend oil is not a POA based which makes it nothing like a fully synthetic oil, they just add anti-wear agents to it, as well as some other additives. Then they market it as something 'special' and sell it to yuppies who know nothing about their cars. There's nothing synthetic at all about the 'synthetic' blend oil, because its nothing but a conventional oil with a bunch of additives. Also, I'm sure the oil you get at your dealership is just as shitty as their OEM oil filter. They don't care whether your car gets the quality stuff or not, they want to make money.

Would you like to tell me some more about what kind of oil I have/had in MY car, and what I can feel or not feel in my car .

PS. If you think you're getting 'synthetic' oil from the dealership, you don't know what the **** you're talking about. There's nothing synthetic about the 'synthetic' blend oil. Unless they actually sell you fully synthetic oil, not some blend.

Peak350

iTrader: (6)

My dealer sells amsoil. Thats synthetic.

CursedFish

@ Resolute:

I appreciate you taking the time to read my post. I understand how people can (and do) read threads and take information as law. I probably should have emphasized it more instead of the quick sentence, but I do feel most oils are suitable for normal use and driving. More specific applications will warrant an informed selection however.

EDIT: Great analysis in your thread btw.

Three Fifty Z

Ugh..High five?

That is awesome, of course. My dealer does not, though.

Its just that IsDatIt is trying to tell me what kind of oil I had in my car, I just wanted to let him know that there is nothing synthetic about a 'synthetic' blend oil.

Peak350

iTrader: (6)

Just saying. Some people read stuff and take it at face value rather than using common sense. Standard fill at my dealer is 5w30 Valvoline Synthetic blend. Its crap.

Three Fifty Z

I'm glad that I'm on the same page as someone here.

edit: I really apologize if I came off as an *******, I really didn't mean to do that.

Peak350

iTrader: (6)

No worries man. I do that all the time.

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

To be fair, it's a bit hypocritical of me to give a quick blurb about how some of what you quoted is misleading or vague, but not explain my reasoning. So, without getting too technical, here's how I see it:

That depends on the ester and PAO being compared. Diesters, such as those used by Motul and Silkolene, are not appreciably more thermally stable at high temperatures than most PAO of similar viscosity. In a recent white paper by Chevron-Oronite, similar viscosity Diester and PAO base oils had no statistical difference in thermal stability above 300 degrees. Identical HTHS can be achieved with similar viscosity of either base oil. Only certain Polyolesters, such as those used by Redline, were appreciably better suited for extreme temps above 300 degrees.

That being said, how hot does your oil really get while in use, and what other additives are in the mix when comparing final OTS products?


PAO's, GTL G3+ oils, XHVI, and PAG's also have shown their resistance to shear. Comparing base oils means having to compare similar viscosity base oils in the same test. In contrast, a UOA is a great way to compare how well certain blends hold up for your use, but it's not indicative of base oil performance. As an example, the M1 shear you cited sounds absolutely believable to me for certain grades of M1. The problem is, we don't know which grade, which formula, and therefore we don't know how much base oil was actually a PAO. To compare one UOA to another and say a certain base oil is the difference is misleading. If I grabbed a bottle of M1 10W-30 I would find very little PAO in it compared to the amount of POE in a bottle of Redline 10W-30. If the shear result of one UOA to the other is compared, it is a fair comparison only of the overall blend, and not the base oils themselves.


This is where it gets funky. The ability to maintain a low TBN without dropping any lower is as much a tribute to oxidative stability as it is to additive depletion. If the oil no longer suspends deposits and removes/prevents varnish due to contamination or depletion, then the TBN will not lower. This is especially true for POE oils which have a major issue with hydrolysis. It is not uncommon at all for an ester to drop TBN more rapidly than other base oils due to the inherent solvency and detergent properties a POE or Diester is blessed with, however; it is also not uncommon for an ester run for 7500 miles to maintain the TBN while developing a high TAN level due to increasing ineffectiveness from moisture instability. There are several UOA's with TAN tests demonstrating this very thing compared to formulas with more diverse base oil content.


For racing, an ester is about the best you can get when considering OTC products. For sure, if you want to buy the best PAO for your race car, you're going to have to pay big and get it special. With Motul, Redine, NEO, etc... you just order what they sell to anyone. However, this again doesn't reflect which base oil is "best" but the economies of scale for the given product. I'd bet big that M1's best PAO base oils, capable of stable viscosities up to a 0W-100 with only 3% VII, would spank any of the OTC ester oils that we mortals could buy. There's a reason the top F1 teams are using PAO (McLaren, Renault, Toyota) or XHVI (Ferrari) base oils. Of course, they are not the same as what's in the OTC versions of Elf Excellium, M1, and Helix Ultra. For the amateur racer or small team on a budget, the Redline, Motul, NEO, etc.. offer a great product that would be better suited for the intended use than most any other OTC product.


Lots of oil additives have polar affinity for metals. While Ester base oils are most notable, so does ZDDP, AntimonyDTC, and other AW/EP additives. The difference, is these additives don't become carboxylic acid from the reverse reaction from a water catalyst.


Again, we don't know which M1 you're referring to, as I can easily prove which oil blends are primarily PAO and AN from their MSDS CAS numbers. The one on BITOG was the 10W-30 blend, however. While it does contain a large amount of G3, according to an M1 tech paper I have, I doubt the amount reported on BITOG since the same guy once posted that GC 0W-30 was also largely G3, and later retracted it. Just for reference, the M1 10W-30 uses a large amount of G3 in order to allow the heavier waxes to reduce viscosity to meet J300 specs for a 10W-xx oil. If an M1 user wants XOM's more advanced base oils, they need to use a more advanced grade than the antiquated 10W-30. It makes more sense for XOM to continue to develop high quality PAO base oils for 0W-xx grades than to keep producing an expensive base oil easily replaced by less expensive G3 oils to meet J300 specs for a 10W-30 grade. Not a fan of M1 oils, but there's a reason Amsoil uses XOM's PAO for their own blends.

All this to say, that base oil isn't the most important thing to consider when choosing an engine oil, and I think to do so is foolish. Whether a PAO is better than Ester, or vice-versa, is all dependent on the use, viscosity, and the rest of the blend the formulation uses. Even still, the new generation of NGP's and GTL's will more than likely continue to put Ester oils as a boutique ingredient while proving to be even better than current PAO and ester base oils in every category. The newer wave of G3+ oils have already proven over and over again to be more than capable when combined with a good additive package. Personally, I cringe to hear people espouse one base oil or additive as the "best" when there is never one secret ingredient that will ensure the best oil for everyone's needs.

Will

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

For someone who comments in their post about people not knowing what the hell they're talking about, your post is full of misinformation.

Any synthetic blend has, by definition, both a synthetic base oil and a conventional base oil. This may be a PAO, ester, AN, or G3+ such as Shell's XHVI combined with a G2 oil. Hence, the BLEND in SYNTHETIC BLEND. Believe it or not, that means there really is something synthetic in a synthetic blend. It doesn't mean that it's "nothing but a conventional oil with a bunch of additives". All oils have additives btw, conventional or synthetic. Unless you're actually shopping for the raw base oil, of course.

As far as syn blend oils being crap, and being sold to "yuppies who know nothing about their cars", there are several syn blends, like Valvoline, which have done very well in customer's UOA. fyi.

Will

Three Fifty Z

I guess the internet lied to me then, everything I said I based off the internet research I did before buying the oil the I use now, some sites for example:

http://www.informationsavvy.com/motor-oil/
http://www.synlube.com/oil.htm

I realize that all oils have additives, I never said that synthetic oil does not have any additives. Its just most of the information I learned said that synthetic blend is a mix of conventional oil and non-conventional, and all of those sites placed synthetic blend in between conventional and pure synthetic oil, and it performs exactly where it is on the scale, its better than the mineral oil, but its not as good as the fully synthetic oil. And all of those sites said that a lot of times the synthetic blends don't really have anything synthetic in them. If the information that I learned is wrong, I'm open minded to change, please provide me with the correct info so I can grow in knowledge, oils is definitely something I would learn about. So what's a strictly fully synthetic's oil formula? What is it based on? PAO, ester, AN, and G3?

Like here I quote one of the sites that I posted: "Synthetic Blends offer NO advantage to consumers as they are priced two to three times higher than petroleum, they however offer much greater profits to marketers as they are much less expensive to produce than fully synthetic oils." and "Huge investments in advertising and promotion of Synthetics benefit the sales of Synthetic Blends as consumers do not realize that they are getting very little extra performance over petroleum at much higher per quart price." ~ That's the kind of info that painted the "yuppies who know nothing about their cars" picture in my head.

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

The first site isn't very comprehensive, but ok. The second site you reference is trying to sling some "special" oil which hasn't had a formulation change since 1992 and uses a laughable spider diagram obviously doctored in paint to justify their lack of any ILSAC approvals. You lose points for quoting from it.

Either way, both sites correctly identified "Synthetic Blend" oils as being a blend of conventional and synthetic base stocks. Neither of those sources explain why you posted these erroneous statements:

Except for all the synthetic blend oils which use a PAO as the synthetic base stock of their blend.


Ignoring the aforementioned issue of your excluding all the Synthetic Blend oils which blend a PAO with conventional base stocks, you seem to imply that Synthetic Blend oils are nothing more than regular conventional oils with additives while neglecting the obvious fact that they also include a synthetic base stock in the blend.


And here you confirm what you alluded to in the quote above. Synthetic Blends are a blend of conventional base oils and Synthetic base oils, which means there is something "synthetic about the synthetic blend oil". As opposed to being, "nothing but a conventional oil with a bunch of additives."

Except for the synthetic part of the oil, right? Which may also include the PAO base oils you mentioned earlier.


And I never said that you did. What I called you out on was your statement that synthetic blend is nothing more than regular old conventional oil with additives. Conventional oil with additives is just known as conventional oil. The additives is assumed, since all engine oil has an additive package. Therefore, Synthetic Blend obviously isn't just conventional oil with "additives", it's also blended with synthetic base oil to be called a Synthetic Blend, which is what you didn't acknowledge.


That is correct, but you originally posted that there was NOTHING synthetic in a Synthetic Blend, when the sites you used as source information said otherwise?


Sure, because the manufacturer can so obviously afford a lawsuit for false advertising. It's not like other oil companies are always testing each others products, or anything.


Synthetic engine oil is any any engine oil using one or more of these synthetic oils as it's base stock: G3 hydroisomerized oil, PAO, Alkylated Napthalene, any number of various esters, silicon, PAG, G3 slack-wax base feedstock, and any other oil which is not conventional crude. A Synthetic Blend may use any one or more of those synthetic base oils in combination with conventional base stock oil.


I guess I failed to find the part of either site which had a source for such fact. Maybe they hadn't yet made a fake graph in Microsoft Paint like they did with their doctored-up ILSAC spider chart. In the VQ35DE, however; Synthetic Blend oils have been run and seen favorable used oil analysis reports with lower wear than high end synthetic oils like Motul.

The fact is, it is a complete fallacy for anyone to hail one group of oils as better or worse than another simply because of how it's classified. Oil isn't that simple. I could show you UOA with conventional fill that looked a whole better than a UOA from the same engine with some expensive synthetic fill. And the reverse is also true. Synthetic Blends have synthetic base oil in them, blended with conventional base stock. This actually works out best for using PAO synthetics, since they have such poor solvency and the conventional oil works as a carrier oil. Other blends use a G3/G2 blend, Ester/G2 blend, etc... No one formula of base oil is a "magic bullet" for best performance. Be honest with your needs, get a UOA to check trends, and don't fall for broad statements about one brand or type of oil being superior or garbage compared to others.

Will

edit: I figured it prudent to acknowledge the inherent deficiency of recognizing the value of synthetic blend oils due to the SAE's failure in defining the amount of synthetic base stock a Synthetic Blend must have. Although any specific percentage of synthetic base stock will by no means guarantee a good product any more than specifying a full synthetic oil does, I think the customer base for Synthetic Blend oil will disappear without a SAE requirement on the amount. There are manufacturers which believe (and produce) that a product labeled as Synthetic Blend should have a 50/50 split on base stock volume between synthetic and conventional. Other companies may only employ 20% or less of the total base stock volume as synthetic. Like any other oil, rather than shopping on name and labels, get a UOA if you really want to see if it's worth the price.