quakerroatmeal

iTrader: (9)

First sentence..exactly at a certain extent.

Michla22

iTrader: (11)

I wonder how much OEM paid for these wheels which still allowed BBS to stay afloat.?

bomber

iTrader: (1)

Did it occur to you that maybe they (BBS) didn't have the right product at that right price? If they had a product that the market wanted then they wouldn't be in trouble.

People here keep mixing up Engineering activities with Industrial Design and Marketing activities.

I think Rota has given something to the Industry. They have opened up the aftermarket wheel industry to the masses.

stradaONE8

iTrader: (2)

There are plenty of companies who make affordable wheels other than Rota and they do so without copying designs from more expensive companies. Rota takes that incentive away for companies that compete with them to do their own design and R&D. Rota has given something to people who don't want to work for what they want, NOT for the industry.

I explained many times how what they do hurts the industry by disincentivizing innovation. This is basic economics. You keep commenting on engineering vs marketing, you seem to not realize they are tightly interwoven. If you can't market a product because someone will steal your idea because there isn't tight copyright law, that isn't marketing, that being screwed by a leech.

You bought a replica because you either couldn't afford the original Work wheels or didn't want to pay for them, in any case, you shouldn't have them.
I can't afford a 430 Scuderia currently, so I don't have one, that's how the world works, so instead I drive what I can afford and not a 98% replica of a 430 Scuderia so I can pretend have what I can't afford/am willing to pay for.

bomber

iTrader: (1)

First off I do know the relationship between Engineering, Product Development and Marketing as I have occupied high level positions in large corporations on both sides. Would be happy to post my resume for your approval.

In the real world, companies that succeed are market driven. You act as if innovation is one dimensional. Innovation is not just Industrial Design which seems to be your biggest heartburn with Rota. You can innovate with Marketing (delivering a product that people are willing to pay for) and in manufacturing. Althougth the products may look similar they are different in both materials and processes employed to make them. Show me where Rota or anyone like me who owns a Rota wheel say they are the same as Vols or BBS or whatever.

Next is you really need to seek first to understand, then to be understood. You have no idea why I bought a Rota wheel so don't tell me my motivations. In fact you gave me more credit than I deserve . I have no idea what wheel my Rota Torque wheel is supposed to be a copy of. My purchase decision tree was rather mundane. I looked in the gallery for wheel that I thought would look nice on my color Z and came up with a short list. I then shopped within my price range and found the Torque. I then determined that they would deliver good performance for a daily driver. Pretty simple ehh?

If you think about it, I guess I am a leech too since I essentially copied the wheel and car color combination that someone else thought of and took the risk to purchase

stradaONE8

iTrader: (2)

Don't need your resume, I believe you. But as you well know, product development is crucial and hence why copyright laws exist in so many arenas. As I've stated before, anyone who gives enough of a crap can market and have service. But if you can't come up with something that people want, then it doesn't matter how much service and marketing you have. Someone at such high level positions surely understands this...


I have never said that, look carefully at my arguments. I give Rota credit for service and quality/$. But in terms of absolute quality and performance originals are obviously stronger/lighter and thus better. I highly doubt any Rota owner thinks they are getting a top echelon product. Ironically many have put Volk stickers on their knockoff wheels...members on this forum...I wonder why?


If you didn't know that the Work CR Kai was the original wheel that your Torques were based on, that brings even more credence to my argument. You and those not as well versed in the wheel market would be keen to jump on a Rota and never even know that the original wheel design was made by someone else. Thus while you could have supported the people who came up with the product, you got sucked in by a lesser quality knockoff

That's arguably even more sad than if you knew it was a replica and wanted it for that reason as you essentially were duped. In this situation you don't even know your wheel is just a copy of a wheel made by Work:


see the Work logos and decals??


hmmm...look familiar?

Maybe you would have the decency to buy the original if you knew. But you didn't. Maybe you'd have the decency to buy another wheel in your budget that wasn't copied...? But more importantly, in any case, YOUR WHEELS WOULD NOT EXIST if Work didn't design them and sold them well. Plain and simple.


Style can be copied, but that's a function of permutation and combination. Many people hide their offsets and etc to remain unique, I for one take it as a compliment if people like what I did with my car to want to emulate it. They aren't stealing something I designed for profit, now if they act like they came up with it...that's just again, being a dbag.

The_VQ

iTrader: (5)

It is not about the prices, it is about the quantities, BBS produces OEM wheels for VW, BMW, Subaru, Mitsubishi and more, generally orders from those companies saved BBS.

Right, BBS LEMANS knockoff (like the one from Linea Corse) will always be cheaper than the originial wheel. Why? Because they are produced in a much different way (BBS wheel is 2piece forged wheel, why Linea Corse's is casted one piece).

It is ignorant people (like you, with your Rota Torques), who think the only difference is in branding between the original wheel and the replica, so why pay more?

Really? Have you ever heard about companies like Enkei or TSW (there are more)? Those guys are not coping anything, they have their own designs....oh yeah, and their wheels are priced for the masses...

O_SO_ICY_Z

iTrader: (1)

damn I can't believe I missed this...I lol at rota haters who buy 3 grand wheels that sit in the garage...I'm sure your getting your money's worth of those wheels designed to be tracked.

bomber

iTrader: (1)

You know you have a weak arguement when you resort to personal attacks . I am far from ignorant and I suggest you read thru my posts and tell me where I said the only difference is branding. The point I've been stressing all along is they are oranges and apples. Most folks with daily drivers do not need forged wheels. We consititute a separate and distinct market segment from those who need or want the level of prformance you get from a forged wheel. Let me make this clear for you. Forged wheels are stronger and lighter than cast wheels. The point is, I do not need that level of performance for my daily driver. Take the time to read and comprehend.

I have no hidden agenda or self interest in this. Do you? I speak from a lot of experience in Product Development and Marketing. Your arguements tell me you do not have any direct experience in these fields. Can I suggest in the future you try to refraim from personal attacks? In fact and apology is warranted.

At this point you have not advanced any new arguements. How about we agree to disagree?

quakerroatmeal

iTrader: (9)

Rota Torque > Work Emotions.. both are cast aluminum I believe and the torques just look better because they concave a lot in the middle. Weight very similar as well.

GeauxLadyZ

iTrader: (9)

Albeit your argument has some merit, its' application in this instance is not exactly relevant.

Marketing innovation is good, yes, but primarily to companies whos sole business is to market, thats why they get paid...to innovate in the arena that is their bread and butter, and why companies outsource marketing. Almost all large corps outsource marketing because marketing is not what they do, and in this instance wheel manufacturing and design is what these companies do. So if they are innovative at marketing...thats just a huge bonus. However, they must still deliver a product that is innovative in order to succeed in their primary niche. In other words, marketing alone will not carry the company.

If you are in the wheel manufacturing/design business, then to be deemed 100% successful at what you do, you must be innovative at either manufacturing or design...period. Where i see Rota at, is here:

They are delivering to you a cheap product that looks good because:

A. Production in the Phillipines is CHEAP, and there is no existing local competition or market for wheel production, so their stability is good to go in the long term, relying on OEM production locally, which is why i dont understand for the life of me why they take no risk in developement/design, even though they already have the sure footing and capital. This just tells me this comapny is being extreamly conservative, and doesnt care enough about motorsports to take any kind of risk in innovation or futhering the motorsports wheel production industry. Lack of commitment and adding something to further motorsports wheel evolution = ftl to me.

This is why Volk/Work etc are so expensive, your paying for their risk in furthering the market/industry as well as top notch latest production means so down the road you have some even more incredible wheels to throw on your next ride. You think Rota is gonna create the next wheel Cast/forge process? My money is on the japs or the Germans, fellas. Point being, they contribute to further the industry = dedication to motorsports = ftw.

B. Motorsports is NOT Rotas primary focus, OEM wheels are. Therefore the production assets are already in place. Most wheel companies START by producing motosports wheels, then rely on the OEM industry to for additional revenue once they have a footing. Rotas start was the exact opposite, which means they are taking NO RISK WHATSOEVER. This is mearly a side business for extra revenue, which is not what i believe an aftermarket wheel company should be.

Axis started as a motorsports wheel design/manf company, and remains that, with NO OEM wheel production, that i know of anyway. This shows me their dedication to this industry and motorsports, and even if they may have some lookalikes in order to help stability of the company so R&D can grow and take more risks, they are NOT carbon copies and they remain dedicated to the motorsports market. This is why i hate seeing the two put in the same catagory.

C. There is no R&D whatsoever, at least on the design side. Sure they have designers that must create drawings for creating molds, but the money here goes purely to simple "give us the dimensions for mold". There is NO innovation or true design, just design in its basic form for needed dimensions/stress tests/etc. There is no innovation in manufacturing, as they are using their already in place manuf. assets for OEM wheels to make their motorsports wheels... and i would bet they would innovate manuf process to get more OEM contracts before they would innovate to further motorsports.

This is my opinion. I have plenty more but tired of typing.

Are they good wheels if your broke and dont care about contributing to motorsports or the scene your a part of...sure. Good, cheap wheels...exactly and purely what Rotas are.

stradaONE8

iTrader: (2)

Funny you had nothing to say about my arguments against Rota or about you not even knowing your wheel is a knockoff when you bought it.

I seriously hate the argument of what people need...you also don't need a sports car with 300+hp, sports suspension, summer tires, or a limited slip differential to get to work, but you seem to have all those...
In that respect, why don't you drive a Ford Aspire to work? It has an engine, a transmission, wheels, and seats, all you need really, right? Aren't you just a glaring hypocrite...


The Torques wouldn't exist if Work hadn't done the leg work. /end argument

Whether or not you prefer the way one looks over the other is ridiculously irrelevant to the point it makes trying to converse with you akin to talking to my dog, except that's an insult to my dog as he actually understands two different languages. One a scale from one to debate, you fail so miserably at understanding arguments and providing any sort of basis for the topic at hand, it is actually astounding.

The_VQ

iTrader: (5)

You wanted to know why BBS sales went down, there's your answer. You have mentioned Rota has brought wheels to the masses, yet you haven't commented brands I have mentioned (which were on the market way before Rota has appeared in the US, I simply imply that you have never heard about them). I am not telling you need forged wheels for DD, that's not the case, my point is most of people want to be ballers, because they have expensive wheels lookalikes (why those wheels are expensive is a different), they even put logos of original manufacturer (or brand) on knockoffs, how sick is that?

Just hate design piracy...that's my interest here. But yeah, back to the topic, having a lot of experienece in Product Development and Marketing as you have called it should be enough for you to come to conclusion that certain, heavly established brands have premium products, in case of BBS those are their forged multipiece wheels, those wheels are ment to be extraordinary, to deliver better performance but a higher price tag. Let me explain why making replicas of those wheels is hurting the business, in the first place replicas will be much cheaper (so more people can afford them and put them on cars of much lower value), the problem starts when clients who could afford those premium models start to see them on any low level car on the street, so what happens next, they just change their mind about buying, because the feeling of owning something outstanding is long lost when you see any cheap Civic rolling on the knockoffs. To sum up, knockoffs decrease the "value" of the genuine product and that's the case here. But I shouldn't be explaining you this, as probably you have far greater experience in this field than me, it is a pitty you cannot see the problem I described though.

Second thing is, Rota is kind of a parasite on the industry, as they generally don't do any "Product Development and Marketing", they base on "Product Development and Marketing" genuine manufacturer has made for them. I also shouldn't point you this one out.

I think most of people in this topic who try to support Rota, are just trying to justify their own decision about buying those wheels, as deep inside they feel something is wrong

doug

iTrader: (5)

I had a set of work vs-xx .. and they got stolen.. just like that.. insurance gave me $900 to replace them..

with that being said.... by whatever the fck rims you want.. 90% of people won't even know what the fck they are.. just don't put X Stickers on Y Brand.. if you're going to buy knockoffs.. don't try to put stickers or emblems on them to fool people

illjim69

iTrader: (6)

So don't buy Rotas and move on with your life.

Never have I seen a message board that is so concerned with what other people spend their money on.

The OP asked for specific information and any time Rota is mentioned on this forum, JDM nuthuggers jump out of the woodwork to condemn their purchase. Sad.

However I was intrigued by your correlation of the Rotas to a fake watch. Does the fake watch look similar to the real deal? Does it tell time? So the look and function of the "real watch" are there within the "fake watch", right? That is all most people care about in the end. People like you care about owning the name that comes with the "real watch" to use as some form of status symbol, somehow placing you above others, giving you a "pass" to look down upon those who buy the "fake watches" in life. It's funny because some people here see a picture of someone's car and look over it for "fake" parts just so they can point them out. Why? What does this accomplish?

stradaONE8

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for your relevant addition to the topic on hand. No kidding we wont buy Rota, but it's a discussion board and we are allowed to civilly discuss whatever we want. This has nothing to do with JDM nuthugging, we're talking about BBS as well, those are from wait, uh Germany.

Try reading comprehension on for size.

bomber

iTrader: (1)

You lost me here. Most large companies DO NOT OUTSOURCE MARKETING. To say so tells me you don't understand marketing. I think you mean to say most companies outsource ADVERTISING. Marketing is Pricing, Product, Promotion and Placement. It can only be done effectively in house. To be successful a company has to be able to evaluate the market and decide where to compete. No market is purely high end. Have you heard of GOOD, BETTER, BEST? Not everyone needs BEST in every application.

I give you there are companies that innovate and ones that are fast followers. This is true in every industry. Believe it or not the fast followers push the innovators and the innovators push the fast followers.

The_VQ

iTrader: (5)

Sorry, you got me wrong, I don't really care what you buy, don't really care what you put on your car, it is your life, your choices.

Nope, I don't buy anything for the name, I buy something because I appreciate the design, appreciate the craftsmanship, appreciate the work somebody had put into that product, I don't care about marketing, I am more proud of high quality things made by some bordeline, not widely known manufacturer, than big names, the name is irrelevant. I rather save up to buy the product which satisfies my high standards, than cheap imitation... I really don't give of f**k if people will think I do this to impress them, the certains things I buy are for me, not for the others.

The problem is, when it comes to the wheels it is simple, price tag in most of the cases equals quality of both design and craftsmanship...and if the design is stolen, there's your answer why something is cheap and worth nothing for me...

SniperHunter

iTrader: (9)

Bomber: What size are your wheels?

P.S. I LOL @ the losers wasting their time writing such massive diatribes against Rota.

illjim69

iTrader: (6)

So don't buy Rotas. I would say nobody cares, but it appears that a few wheel snobs on here actually do care for no other reason than they feel cheated that someone else is getting a certain look for half the price. I could understand flaming someone for buying Rotas and then slapping Volk stickers on them, however that isn't the case (yes I know, it has happened before). The OP simply asked for suggestions on a certain wheel design, here let me help you out.......

So where in that post does it ask for the personal opinions of wheel snobs? Did I miss the part where he asked how knockoff wheel designs were destroying the aftermarket wheel industry?

I get it, it's a discussion forum, so people are free to discuss their thoughts and how they feel inside. On the other hand, it isn't like this topic hasn't been beat to death. Not every thread about wheels has to be "if you buy Rotas then you are a poseur" or whatever it is that rattles around in the heads of wheel snobs these days. I don't know what it is that fuels the need for certain people to just jump in and flame other people for not buying 5,000 dollar wheels. All the "well they stole the design" crap can be thrown out the window. Did Nissan make the first car? No? Well then Nissan is a knockoff company. See how stupid that sounds?