Aviation Gas ???
05-23-2006, 12:52 PM
#61
It does run faster because we dynoed the Astra and it made 241whp on pump and 252whp on avgas. I can't remeber if we did 60/40reg or 70/30reg that day but I remeber we put PLENTY of avgas.
Sure, lead is not good for your motor. Especially extreme high performance motors. Back in 1991 my father imported a Honda NSX from Japan and that car was made for unleaded gas only and venezuela still hadn't switched to unleaded pump gas yet so I remember us having to get the injectors cleaned about every 3 months. It was in 1998 that they finally came out with the "gasolina ecologica" (ecological gas) that replaced the 95 octane leaded for 93 unleaded. We still have leaded fuel at the pumps IE 90 leaded and 89 leaded and people switch between one and the other without apparent issues. I only remember that NSX hesitating with the leaded gas and an even worse problem was dirty gas.
We also had to remove and clean the gas tank every 6 to 12 months to remove dirt and grime. Unfortunately the subterranean tanks there are not very well maintained.
Sure, lead is not good for your motor. Especially extreme high performance motors. Back in 1991 my father imported a Honda NSX from Japan and that car was made for unleaded gas only and venezuela still hadn't switched to unleaded pump gas yet so I remember us having to get the injectors cleaned about every 3 months. It was in 1998 that they finally came out with the "gasolina ecologica" (ecological gas) that replaced the 95 octane leaded for 93 unleaded. We still have leaded fuel at the pumps IE 90 leaded and 89 leaded and people switch between one and the other without apparent issues. I only remember that NSX hesitating with the leaded gas and an even worse problem was dirty gas.
We also had to remove and clean the gas tank every 6 to 12 months to remove dirt and grime. Unfortunately the subterranean tanks there are not very well maintained.
05-23-2006, 01:50 PM
#62
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=tecni]
Geez, sounds like any 3d world country to me!
If you were to read what I stated above, you`d notice, that 130 (AND ITS NOT CALLED AvGAS goddamnit!!!! ITS 130 nothing more!) has been in the process of being phased out, (Canada hasent had it in over 10 years!)
Ok, so mister student (or PPL holder
) My statement was simply that your arguing with a profesional pilot, one whom just happends to own the buisness and act as chief pilot 
When it comes to internal combustion engines I believe I know what I`m talking about. After all, the day when you have to foot the bill for an overhaul (at the tune of 40K USD for the P&W wasp radial in my DHC2 ''Beaver'') and not with dad footing the bill, you will be confidant in making such ''strong' comments''
Your ''Fact'' is mute.
What I will say however...-flying a 172 in a 3d world country takes guts! (I know, I rented a 172 (out of Polamar) and flew around the island for 3.2 hours back in Feb/06) Damn, it makes trainer planes out at flying clubs in Canada (and there the pits!) look like prestine ''new'' birds!lol (Great country, friendly ppl, and I`d go again in a new york second!)
Maby so. However, without ANY problems? That I certainly doubt.
Granted, however O2 systems, and sparkpugs will fowl-up rather quickly. (A car ignition isent like a magneto. You cant ''burn'' it off the pugs by leaning out the mixture, and setting the mag switch on the ''rough running'' mag.) But heck, thats basic rec licence stuff right? (I`m not being sarcastic)
I`m not talking about octaine contents here. We are debating lead contents. Spare me the the 101 basic engine principals course! Anyone whom reads the POH for your typical trainer plane, will find a section which states ''Do not use any fuel of a lower octaine than the manufactuer specifies'' 99% of student pilots would know that one!lol
All of them
[/QUOTE]
WHAT???? How about you READ THE WHOLE THREAD!!!!
The issue here is what kind of damage may result in usage of AvGas (100LL) (NOT 130! Thats different got it?) in our modern cars....
You stipulate that no significant damage will occur.... I beg to differ.
Ok here you go Mr. Pilot.
FACT:
In venezuela they have 130 octane avgas. Too much lead content? They don't care enought to go with 100LL.
FACT:
In venezuela they have 130 octane avgas. Too much lead content? They don't care enought to go with 100LL.
If you were to read what I stated above, you`d notice, that 130 (AND ITS NOT CALLED AvGAS goddamnit!!!! ITS 130 nothing more!) has been in the process of being phased out, (Canada hasent had it in over 10 years!)
FACT:
I was born and raised in Venezuela and my father owned a Piper Navajo. I grew up around it and learned every bit about it. My great uncle had a Cessna Citation II so I also know a little bit about jets and his son (my cousin) had a Cessna 172 that I learned to fly and used to go on short trips in.
I was born and raised in Venezuela and my father owned a Piper Navajo. I grew up around it and learned every bit about it. My great uncle had a Cessna Citation II so I also know a little bit about jets and his son (my cousin) had a Cessna 172 that I learned to fly and used to go on short trips in.
) My statement was simply that your arguing with a profesional pilot, one whom just happends to own the buisness and act as chief pilot When it comes to internal combustion engines I believe I know what I`m talking about. After all, the day when you have to foot the bill for an overhaul (at the tune of 40K USD for the P&W wasp radial in my DHC2 ''Beaver'') and not with dad footing the bill, you will be confidant in making such ''strong' comments'' Your ''Fact'' is mute.
What I will say however...-flying a 172 in a 3d world country takes guts! (I know, I rented a 172 (out of Polamar) and flew around the island for 3.2 hours back in Feb/06) Damn, it makes trainer planes out at flying clubs in Canada (and there the pits!) look like prestine ''new'' birds!lol (Great country, friendly ppl, and I`d go again in a new york second!)
Fact:
I used 130 octane AVgas for 30 days on an astra, 2 legends and a Mitsu lancer and none of the three cars were damaged by using higher octane fuel.
I used 130 octane AVgas for 30 days on an astra, 2 legends and a Mitsu lancer and none of the three cars were damaged by using higher octane fuel.
Fact:
Modern cars are computer controlled to retard your timing if the octane levels are too high.
Modern cars are computer controlled to retard your timing if the octane levels are too high.
)
Fact:
Lower octane fuels explode more violently and are more likely to detonate under less compression. THat's why we prefer higher octane, to ensure that the mixture ignites with the spark from the spark plug and not by the heat produced when compressing gases.
Lower octane fuels explode more violently and are more likely to detonate under less compression. THat's why we prefer higher octane, to ensure that the mixture ignites with the spark from the spark plug and not by the heat produced when compressing gases.
Which point here would you like to debate?
The discussion here is wether or not it will break the car and unless you've been sneeking gas out of the airport and feeding it to your cars, you would not know much about the effects it would have on the vehicles.
I don't doubt you know your sheeehat about planes but read the title of the thread and try to stick to the main point here.
I don't doubt you know your sheeehat about planes but read the title of the thread and try to stick to the main point here.
WHAT???? How about you READ THE WHOLE THREAD!!!!
The issue here is what kind of damage may result in usage of AvGas (100LL) (NOT 130! Thats different got it?) in our modern cars....
You stipulate that no significant damage will occur.... I beg to differ.
05-23-2006, 04:28 PM
#63
This guy I really getting on my nerves here. Why are you getting all frustrated if you seem to think you know so much about what being talked about?
"Goddamnit"
"WHat the Hell"
These are not words you would quote from a good scholar.
Keep your cool because it makes the alleged "self-made" businessman sound like nothing more than a punk.
Why would you having to flip 40k out of your pocket make you more experienced than the supposed rich kid that had his father flip the bill on his own plane? Money is not knowledge and wether it came from your pocket or mine it does not make you any more savvy in the subject. The fact that you have a Pilot's lic should, so please keep your wallet in your back pocket intead of trying to crush people with it.
Just because 130 octane is being phased out does not mean its not AVgas. It was, at some point, the standard.
Flying a the 172 was not scary in the least bit. Its like everything... it depends on who you allow to work on it and wether you can afford the costly repairs.
I'm happy to see the country and its people made a lasting impression on you. Apparently the name of the city didn't since its PORLAMAR in the island of Margarita.
"Goddamnit"
"WHat the Hell"
These are not words you would quote from a good scholar.
Keep your cool because it makes the alleged "self-made" businessman sound like nothing more than a punk.
Why would you having to flip 40k out of your pocket make you more experienced than the supposed rich kid that had his father flip the bill on his own plane? Money is not knowledge and wether it came from your pocket or mine it does not make you any more savvy in the subject. The fact that you have a Pilot's lic should, so please keep your wallet in your back pocket intead of trying to crush people with it.
Just because 130 octane is being phased out does not mean its not AVgas. It was, at some point, the standard.
Flying a the 172 was not scary in the least bit. Its like everything... it depends on who you allow to work on it and wether you can afford the costly repairs.
I'm happy to see the country and its people made a lasting impression on you. Apparently the name of the city didn't since its PORLAMAR in the island of Margarita.
05-23-2006, 08:13 PM
#65
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tecni]
Because I do, afterall I make my living at it!
"
Your absolutly 100% right. You have my sincerest appologies.
Is not about ''crushing'' you. My point is, that after having spent over 120K over the last few years on overhauls, one usually does a fair amount of reaseach. When your not footing the bill in the end run, the reasearch is usually not as in depth as someone whos been paying ''the shot'' for several years.
Hey, I only wished my folks had been involved in aviation, there`s absolutly nothing wrong with your getting a ''leg up'' on the game. Your lucky, and I`m sure you know that.
Like I said earlyer, you say that you`ve run many ''modern'' cars on Avgas without anyproblems.... I personally find that hard to believe but heck, if you say so.
It was (back in the 70`s) but not anymore. Please stop calling it that!
Well remember that you grew up there! As a licenced North American pilot, I found the whole thing dodgy.... however I wouldnt have flown her if I dint feel 110% about it......
Now, if it hasent become painstakingly obvious that my spelling is left to be desired, well you get my point!lol!!! You spell it Tomato, I spell it Tomato!lol
Cessna
PS. Where was that pic taken? Atleast the engines are still good! (She might need some new carpets and a new ELT!!!!lol!!!
This guy I really getting on my nerves here. Why are you getting all frustrated if you seem to think you know so much about what being talked about?
"
Goddamnit"
"WHat the Hell"
These are not words you would quote from a good scholar.
Keep your cool because it makes the alleged "self-made" businessman sound like nothing more than a punk.
"WHat the Hell"
These are not words you would quote from a good scholar.
Keep your cool because it makes the alleged "self-made" businessman sound like nothing more than a punk.
Why would you having to flip 40k out of your pocket make you more experienced than the supposed rich kid that had his father flip the bill on his own plane? Money is not knowledge and wether it came from your pocket or mine it does not make you any more savvy in the subject. The fact that you have a Pilot's lic should, so please keep your wallet in your back pocket intead of trying to crush people with it.
Hey, I only wished my folks had been involved in aviation, there`s absolutly nothing wrong with your getting a ''leg up'' on the game. Your lucky, and I`m sure you know that.
Like I said earlyer, you say that you`ve run many ''modern'' cars on Avgas without anyproblems.... I personally find that hard to believe but heck, if you say so.
Just because 130 octane is being phased out does not mean its not AVgas. It was, at some point, the standard.
Flying a the 172 was not scary in the least bit. Its like everything... it depends on who you allow to work on it and wether you can afford the costly repairs.
I'm happy to see the country and its people made a lasting impression on you. Apparently the name of the city didn't since its PORLAMAR in the island of Margarita.
I'm happy to see the country and its people made a lasting impression on you. Apparently the name of the city didn't since its PORLAMAR in the island of Margarita.
Now, if it hasent become painstakingly obvious that my spelling is left to be desired, well you get my point!lol!!! You spell it Tomato, I spell it Tomato!lol
Cessna
PS. Where was that pic taken? Atleast the engines are still good! (She might need some new carpets and a new ELT!!!!lol!!!
05-24-2006, 06:48 AM
#68
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Ouch those pics are painful!
Prolly need a gear overhaul due to water damage!
However i was up a while last night and re-read all of the post, and came up with a few things:
Are you saying that on a nationwide strike that you had your dad's car dyno'd and was able to do a baseline on hp with regular gas, and then decided to mix in avgas which wouldnt do much since it hasnt reached the fuel lines unless it was driven for a few minutes.
So, since the country was waiting in line for gas for hours on end, there was a shop that was open you could dyno your vehicle and notice a differance,
I decided to research the astra turbo semi-extensively... bored at work!
noticed its setup much like the supra as far as electronics go with ECU etc etc. so the use of race gas should net a "gain" or what we like to call less of a loss based upon the fact the car is less likley to knock, but that is an aweful high increase on a completely stock motor... What would warrant you to want to dyno a stock car?
Giving you the benfit of the doubt, it was under my knowlege that Venezuela was using the metric system and therefore wouldn't your numbers be more like 177Kw to the crank on the astra turbo and 320Nm to the fly so why would the dyno be giving readings in hp anyway?... Please don't take this as bashing but your stories dont all match up, so i am just looking for answers!
Thanks,
Don
Prolly need a gear overhaul due to water damage!
However i was up a while last night and re-read all of the post, and came up with a few things:
It does run faster because we dynoed the Astra and it made 241whp on pump and 252whp on avgas
So, since the country was waiting in line for gas for hours on end, there was a shop that was open you could dyno your vehicle and notice a differance,
I decided to research the astra turbo semi-extensively... bored at work!
noticed its setup much like the supra as far as electronics go with ECU etc etc. so the use of race gas should net a "gain" or what we like to call less of a loss based upon the fact the car is less likley to knock, but that is an aweful high increase on a completely stock motor... What would warrant you to want to dyno a stock car?
Giving you the benfit of the doubt, it was under my knowlege that Venezuela was using the metric system and therefore wouldn't your numbers be more like 177Kw to the crank on the astra turbo and 320Nm to the fly so why would the dyno be giving readings in hp anyway?... Please don't take this as bashing but your stories dont all match up, so i am just looking for answers!
Thanks,
Don
05-24-2006, 05:45 PM
#70
Interesting...
But even though we're on the metric system and we talk in liters, kilometers, milimeters, etc. All our cars and trucks are rated in horsepower.
The opel astra is rated at 195hp to the flywheel and we ordered some parts from Regalmotorsports such as an intercooler upgrade, upped the boost a little bit and did an ECU upgrade. You can check em out at:
http://www.regal-shop.co.uk/
The actual dyno runs were not done during the strike. We did them a few weeks after. And we gassed the car back at th house and drove it all the way to the shop (about 15min drive).
Even though we werent dynoing a stock car I did in fact dyno my G35 when it was bone stock before I installed the turbo kit. That's one reason to dyno a stock car.
And IF the ASTRA *was* (hypothetically speaking) stock and we were using avgas believing it would yield higher HP, that in itself would have been reason enough to dyno it. So that would also justify dynoing a stock car.
But even though we're on the metric system and we talk in liters, kilometers, milimeters, etc. All our cars and trucks are rated in horsepower.
The opel astra is rated at 195hp to the flywheel and we ordered some parts from Regalmotorsports such as an intercooler upgrade, upped the boost a little bit and did an ECU upgrade. You can check em out at:
http://www.regal-shop.co.uk/
The actual dyno runs were not done during the strike. We did them a few weeks after. And we gassed the car back at th house and drove it all the way to the shop (about 15min drive).
Even though we werent dynoing a stock car I did in fact dyno my G35 when it was bone stock before I installed the turbo kit. That's one reason to dyno a stock car.
And IF the ASTRA *was* (hypothetically speaking) stock and we were using avgas believing it would yield higher HP, that in itself would have been reason enough to dyno it. So that would also justify dynoing a stock car.
05-24-2006, 08:26 PM
#71
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Originally Posted by tecni
Interesting...
But even though we're on the metric system and we talk in liters, kilometers, milimeters, etc. All our cars and trucks are rated in horsepower.
The opel astra is rated at 195hp to the flywheel and we ordered some parts from Regalmotorsports such as an intercooler upgrade, upped the boost a little bit and did an ECU upgrade. You can check em out at:
http://www.regal-shop.co.uk/
The actual dyno runs were not done during the strike. We did them a few weeks after. And we gassed the car back at th house and drove it all the way to the shop (about 15min drive).
Even though we werent dynoing a stock car I did in fact dyno my G35 when it was bone stock before I installed the turbo kit. That's one reason to dyno a stock car.
And IF the ASTRA *was* (hypothetically speaking) stock and we were using avgas believing it would yield higher HP, that in itself would have been reason enough to dyno it. So that would also justify dynoing a stock car.
But even though we're on the metric system and we talk in liters, kilometers, milimeters, etc. All our cars and trucks are rated in horsepower.
The opel astra is rated at 195hp to the flywheel and we ordered some parts from Regalmotorsports such as an intercooler upgrade, upped the boost a little bit and did an ECU upgrade. You can check em out at:
http://www.regal-shop.co.uk/
The actual dyno runs were not done during the strike. We did them a few weeks after. And we gassed the car back at th house and drove it all the way to the shop (about 15min drive).
Even though we werent dynoing a stock car I did in fact dyno my G35 when it was bone stock before I installed the turbo kit. That's one reason to dyno a stock car.
And IF the ASTRA *was* (hypothetically speaking) stock and we were using avgas believing it would yield higher HP, that in itself would have been reason enough to dyno it. So that would also justify dynoing a stock car.
05-24-2006, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by MI 35th
Those modifications should net a decent gain with high octane fuel! Thanks for the clerification.
Well its nice to see that I`m not the only one with bad spelling!lol
05-29-2006, 06:03 PM
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I type fast... That Canadian air coming across Erie is starting to effect me!!!
OH BTW AOPA Magazine did huge writeup on AVGAS, the controversy with TEL (toxic additive) that is in all oder gasses and lower levels of 100LL....
OH BTW AOPA Magazine did huge writeup on AVGAS, the controversy with TEL (toxic additive) that is in all oder gasses and lower levels of 100LL....
05-29-2006, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by MI 35th
I type fast... That Canadian air coming across Erie is starting to effect me!!!
OH BTW AOPA Magazine did huge writeup on AVGAS, the controversy with TEL (toxic additive) that is in all oder gasses and lower levels of 100LL....
OH BTW AOPA Magazine did huge writeup on AVGAS, the controversy with TEL (toxic additive) that is in all oder gasses and lower levels of 100LL....
Damn! I knew I should have paid 10$ CND more to recive the AOPA news letter with my COPA membership.
I wonder if COPA (Canadian equivalent) will have anything similar in theirs....(probably not)
Sorry about not getting back to you about the CAR`s/float rating Don, I`ll try to get to it in the morning
Cheers,
Louis
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