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The Brutal Truth about the Z35

Old 07-20-2017, 09:59 AM
  #141  
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The problem with the 370z is that it lagged behind its rivals at launch and feels really dated now. I've never liked the interior either.

Doesn't help that the new generation of AWD 2.0t hot hatches destroy them in terms of performance.

I have a feeling that any new Z model will be very expensive and hybrid.
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Old 07-20-2017, 10:14 AM
  #142  
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HP>TURBO>AWD .. if you don't have those elements, your last ricky bobby..
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:21 PM
  #143  
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Interesting that this thread has been resurrected (again). Now the talk has turned to performance and the latest in hot hatches. The BRUTAL TRUTH is in 2017, even if the next Z could compete head-to-head with any AWD turbo hatches, it still would lack a good business case for being produced. The amount of pure performance sport cars being sold in the North America continue to shrink. Why would Nissan commit millions of dollars in R&D to a model that sells a minuscule amount of cars?

I just finished a review of the 2017 Fiat 124 Spider, which was developed in conjunction with Mazda's ND MX-5. It's good- very good, in fact. A lightweight RWD turbo car with a foolproof manual top and a list price of about $25K? Good performance and Italian flair to boot, it's gotta make Nissan product planners a bit sick to imagine building a Z35 to top that! Not that the company isn't up to it, but the small amount of cars demanded by that shrinking and paltry marketplace is enough to make anyone sick.
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Old 07-20-2017, 03:45 PM
  #144  
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I couldn't see Nissan making a mx-5 rival with a Z badge. Like you say, they couldn't make a business case for it, or a marketing one. It would also **** off most z enthusiasts.

However, a hybrid would be another story. A budget "nsx style" hybrid would tick both boxes. It would sell in droves and be a good marketing tool.

The first Z was initially conceived as a "affordable Ferrari". An affordable AWD, hybrid sports car would continue that tradition.

The GTR is getting old, and more and more expensive. There is a definite gap in the range that the 370z doesn't fill anymore. Especially in Europe and Japan.

I think the small turbo engine in the fiat is worse than the larger n/a one in the mx5 personally. Not really a fan of either. Nothing like a Z and a totally different market sector IMO.

Will be interesting to see what happens.
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Old 07-20-2017, 05:32 PM
  #145  
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There has been a lot of discussion on whether the Z35 would morph into a smaller, lighter vehicle, Whether it used electric, hybrid or some other powerplant (perhaps using Nissan's revolutionary variable compression four cylinder engine?), the speculation was the Z would become a smaller car than the Z33/34 designs.

And I'm not sure what the S30 marketing was like in the UK, but here in the US, I never heard any claims of the 240Z being an "affordable Ferrari". The problem with an affordable AWD hybrid sportscar is AWD adds weight and complexity. Meanwhile, hybrid technology just isn't selling very well here in the States, but might be a draw elsewhere. The problem remains that sport cars in general, are not selling well.

Nissan also has the issue of the R35, which needs more than just a refresh. The company flagship is getting long in the tooth, but how to redo both the Z and this technological marvel? Bet there's some interesting discussions in corporate meetings on which car gets the approval for R&D. Can Nissan afford both? As you say, interesting times ahead...
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:53 PM
  #146  
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Let's not forget what I believe was already mentioned in this thread (or maybe another or I'm losing my mind...) that society itself has changed a fair amount.

At least where I am in the SF urban region, "millennials" are tending away from driving cars in general. In the urban centers like San Francisco, Oakland, etc., there is adequate public transit, e.g., buses, rideshare, train and the uptick in affordable, by-the-hour car "rental" if one truly needs to drive somewhere.

Oh, and let's not forget about all the "tech buses"; that is, all of the transportation that companies are supplying for their workers from relatively large distances. Where I work, roughly 30-35% of our employees use such buses on a daily basis. That's a LOT of people... estimated around 4,000. And, almost EVERY fair sized tech company from Google to HP to Facebook and so on runs a transport fleet. (In addition to running their own internal car share programs.)

On top of that, the big rise in electric cars has put a dent in the sports car market; where the most desired car, by this generation, is the forthcoming Tesla Model 3.

So, dkmura (and everyone else commenting is correct in that it's a diminished market) is correct, making it fiscal nonsense to invest in such a small segment. Nissan would likely put the Z to bed and keep the GTR (in whatever stratospheric trim) as their flagship, image car.

As I mentioned very early in this thread - and agreeing with more recent posters - hybrid technology, while seemingly not a leading product line for Nissan like it is for Toyota and Mercedes, is what tomorrow's sports cars are leaning towards, like it or not. And if you shake your head in doubt and prefer a "real" sports car with gobs of power (read: internal combustion power), think "Formula 1".
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Old 07-21-2017, 06:40 AM
  #147  
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Great comment, Mic. But since this thread has taken a speculative turn towards hybrids, I don't suspect the next Z will be the first to receive it. The prime candidate is for such complex and expensive technology is the R36 GT-R. Nissan could update the flagship first, and perhaps even share the design with Alliance partner Renault (new Alpine sportscar?) or Infiniti (what they always wanted- a supercar) to split some costs. As you say, F1 technology is cutting edge and maybe all those high-end sales (what- 2,500 cars a year?) and image building will be enough for Nissan to sign off on.

Where does this leave the Z? The BRUTAL TRUTH is nowhere, unfortunately...
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Old 07-21-2017, 08:35 AM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by dkmura View Post
Great comment, Mic. But since this thread has taken a speculative turn towards hybrids, I don't suspect the next Z will be the first to receive it. The prime candidate is for such complex and expensive technology is the R36 GT-R. Nissan could update the flagship first, and perhaps even share the design with Alliance partner Renault (new Alpine sportscar?) or Infiniti (what they always wanted- a supercar) to split some costs. As you say, F1 technology is cutting edge and maybe all those high-end sales (what- 2,500 cars a year?) and image building will be enough for Nissan to sign off on.

Where does this leave the Z? The BRUTAL TRUTH is nowhere, unfortunately...
Totally agree; hence my veiled comment, "...and keep the GTR (in whatever stratospheric trim) as their flagship, image car."

Besides that, any Z35 that would get this hypothetical new drivetrain would require a whole new engineering design rather than a super costly retrofit to the aging Z34, which already isn't selling that well. Either way, it's all about the money invested and the possible return on that.

I will say this - again, as I have many times over - that the Z34 was a great evolution of the Z33 platform with many superior traits over the Z33 (which I won't get into, having done so, repeatedly, in "defending" the Z34.) But, to re-use the much used adjective, "unfortunately", to describe the predicament, it's no longer enough for Nissan to keep pace with the market for such cars as said market has leapfrogged and has evolved faster and further than what's in the aging 34.

Then again, they HAVE already produced the fantastic Q60 with AWD (which leads me to "suspect" that this could actually have been purposely designed for future non-gear driven "AWD" and as a pre-cursor to the next gen Z; that is, sufficient space for electric motors (replacing xfer box and conventional drive shafts) driving all four wheels...eh? ) so maybe there's some engineering trickle down that could occur in a new design Z car? Hmmmm....

Imagine it..... a conventional 300-350hp internal combustion engine (gas, diesel, E85, whatever) combined with two electric motors a la Tesla P85D... now THAT would be a H-Y-B-R-I-D... Hell, since I'm mentally mastur.... er, you get the idea... why not just remove the int. combustion engine altogether and put bigger electrics in....?! And so on and so on and...

But all in all, just uninformed speculation/wistful thinking .... C'mon Nissan, surprise me and make me look stupid for my naysaying the fate of the Z car!!
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Old 07-22-2017, 07:51 AM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by dkmura View Post
There has been a lot of discussion on whether the Z35 would morph into a smaller, lighter vehicle, Whether it used electric, hybrid or some other powerplant (perhaps using Nissan's revolutionary variable compression four cylinder engine?), the speculation was the Z would become a smaller car than the Z33/34 designs.

And I'm not sure what the S30 marketing was like in the UK, but here in the US, I never heard any claims of the 240Z being an "affordable Ferrari". The problem with an affordable AWD hybrid sportscar is AWD adds weight and complexity. Meanwhile, hybrid technology just isn't selling very well here in the States, but might be a draw elsewhere. The problem remains that sport cars in general, are not selling well.

Nissan also has the issue of the R35, which needs more than just a refresh. The company flagship is getting long in the tooth, but how to redo both the Z and this technological marvel? Bet there's some interesting discussions in corporate meetings on which car gets the approval for R&D. Can Nissan afford both? As you say, interesting times ahead...

It was nothing to do with marketing. The 240z was inspired by the Ferrari 250 gto.

It wouldn't have been created if it wasn't for Ferrari.

Hybrid technology is getting cheaper and cheaper. My first panasonic plasma tv was 5k and you got $2 for 1 back then too. Hybrids will go the same way. Nothing complex about an electric motor. The Prius has been around a long time now.

In Europe everything is going hybrid. Volvo have just announced all cars will be hybrid from 2019 (their new cars/engines are cheap crap, sold for BMW money).

Herr Merkel has just announced she wants non hybrid car sales banned in the near future. She's much worse than Trump.

It wouldn't have to be overly complex. Something similar to the new VW golf GTE but with more power.

For the record...I hate hybrids and electric cars. This isn't what I want at all, just what I think will happen.
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Old 07-26-2017, 07:36 PM
  #150  
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I think there's still a market for small sports cars. Take the BRZ/FRS/86 cars.. Small, lightweight, "back seat" and slow. how many have those sold? Tons...


I don't think the budget/cost for the Z has ever been super high. it's basically a G35/G37/Q50 with a shortened wheelbase and different sheet metal, which is part of the formula and reason that the Z has never been that capable compared to a purpose-built car.


Nissan/infiniti typically test out the new engines on their sedans for a year or two before bringing them to the Z where they'll really get worked over. Wouldn't surprise me to see the z34 chassis with the newer TT engines and small cosmetic tweaks.


I'm sure there will be a Z35 and it will be bigger and heavier and might have a small back seat.


Although the problem with the Z has been, how do you continue to share a chassis with a sedan which grows every year with a sports car that's already bloated. Part of why the 370z looks so odd.


If I was Nissan, I'd drop the GTR and focus on the Z. Talk about huge R&D costs with very little sales. Look at the latest Acura NSX. It priced itself out of existence. No one's buying it. What a waste. I think the next version of the GTR would do the same.
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Old 07-27-2017, 07:27 AM
  #151  
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The Z has long ago evolved from being a "small" sports car. It's why the discussion in this thread has alternated from a "return to its roots" S30 type of design to a bigger, heavier and faster sports car. Nissan has tried to position the Z upmarket from the BRZ/Toyota 86 and MX-5/Fiat 214 twins, where sales remain somewhat stagnant.

As for the performance of the Z on the FM chassis, I disagree with the statement that it's the "reason that the Z has never been that capable compared to a purpose-built car." In SCCA racing, where we go up against everything from the Porsche Boxster to the BMW Z4 and M3 (in close to production trim), the Z has proved to be formidable competition for cars costing tens of thousands more.

As you say, one possibility is the Z35 becoming more powerful and heavier using the new turbo motors from the Infiniti Q-line. As for the backseat, that's just wishful thinking. But platform sharing has really only been used in the Z33/34 models, and it remains to be seen if Nissan elects to stay with that paradigm.

Hate to say it, but the GT-R (limited production, high cost and all) still serves as a halo car in a way the Z never will. That's why almost every manufacturer has one; not for the masses to buy, but an aspirational buy that justifies its existence. Beyond this, the BRUTAL TRUTH is there's a reason the 370Z has only received a mild makeover, while the crossover models have sold like hotcakes and had full redesigns several times in the same time period.
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Old 07-27-2017, 09:01 AM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by dkmura View Post

Hate to say it, but the GT-R (limited production, high cost and all) still serves as a halo car in a way the Z never will. That's why almost every manufacturer has one; not for the masses to buy, but an aspirational buy that justifies its existence. Beyond this, the BRUTAL TRUTH is there's a reason the 370Z has only received a mild makeover, while the crossover models have sold like hotcakes and had full redesigns several times in the same time period.
So much THIS!! ^^^

Exactly why I "suggested" (OK, speculated) that the GTR would evolve into becoming - yet again - "that Nissan that just whupsass on them fancy Yooro-pean supuhcahs!"

And that unfortunately, due to the financial conundrum, would spell out the Z35's demise.

But as I say with each post on this topic, "Nissan, prove me wrong!!"




Of course, it'd be the first time in 25 years I was wrong but I's willing to take one for the team.... I'm THAT noble....
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Old 08-12-2017, 12:43 PM
  #153  
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The BRUTAL TRUTH is out for those waiting for the next Z to arrive in 2018. The 2018 370Z has been confirmed, with pricing and specs released on Nissan's media site.
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Old 08-12-2017, 02:23 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by dkmura View Post
The BRUTAL TRUTH is out for those waiting for the next Z to arrive in 2018. The 2018 370Z has been confirmed, with pricing and specs released on Nissan's media site.
Yep.... pretty much a bunch of useless features, car being evolutionarily the same since 2009 MY.

My take: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

For real, Nissan, this car is stale. It's better overall than a Z33; and that's nice for the first couple of years but c'mon, 9 years of same ol'-same ol'??? Uggggh. Bored.
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Old 08-14-2017, 02:46 PM
  #155  
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As long as the new Z isn't this, I'm willing to wait.


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Old 08-14-2017, 05:42 PM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by zakmartin View Post
As long as the new Z isn't this, I'm willing to wait.

Not to worry. Nissan studied building an EV sports car about five years ago (pictured), but they never found a good business case for producing one. While the new Leaf will debut in September, there's little reason to think another EV model will follow.
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Old 08-14-2017, 08:03 PM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by dkmura View Post
Not to worry. Nissan studied building an EV sports car about five years ago (pictured), but they never found a good business case for producing one. While the new Leaf will debut in September, there's little reason to think another EV model will follow.
Wait....what about that concept 370EVZ that's been running around?







I've always wanted to start an unfounded rumor/meme....
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Old 08-15-2017, 05:44 AM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by MicVelo View Post
Wait....what about that concept 370EVZ that's been running around?

I've always wanted to start an unfounded rumor/meme....
Ah Mic, now you're just trying to rile up the masses!
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Old 08-15-2017, 01:09 PM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by dkmura View Post
Ah Mic, now you're just trying to rile up the masses!
Who, me? No, really, I've seen them running around.

But then, my wife woke me up.... apparently I was screaming in anguish something about "...an Elon-somebody replacing Ghosn and the words 'Powered by Android' on the lower flanks of the 370EVZ."

That followed by more grunts of "Lamo" or "Waymo" or someting.
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Old 08-17-2017, 05:40 AM
  #160  
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https://www.motor1.com/news/177021/t...zda-rx9-tokyo/


Having not read through the entire thread, I think this article is only the 2nd time I've seen "390Z" mentioned. We'll obviously have to wait until October to see if this is legit or not, but that Z rendering is half bad.
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